[quote author=TITL link=topic=12659.msg148694#msg148694 date=1323296281] It's not that people don't want to learn the long tune (well, that's part of it), but usually it's 1-4 deacons who sing it INDIVIDUALLY in their own style, and you can't sing along. But with the refrain, it's faster and everyone can sing along! ;D
I prefer that over listening to deacons have voice competitions.
No need to say it in English with this ridiculous refrain.
What are you even saying? How is it ridiculous? Jesus Christ is the begotten of the Father and was incarnate of the Virgin. That is what it means. Now, the church fathers need to put something together and agree on one way to say it. Just because there is no agreement or even thought about how the refrain should be said, does not mean it is ridiculous. I actually love the Arabic/English Psalm 150 because of the Kiahk tune and it is easy for the congregation to sing. I hate leading and singing hymns by myself. What is better than having a whole church singing the same thing? It is in no way ridiculous. Grammatically incorrect, maybe. But not ridiculous.
Forgive me: when I said ridiculous, I referred to it's existence, not it's subject matter. As I've said, it is an unnecessary addition. It was never there in the first place. It does not need to be there.
I totally agree that having everyone sing together is a beautiful thing. But chanting fabricated refrains isn't the way to solve the issue: education of the proper melismatic tune is. Or if that is too much to ask, saying a different hymn. There are plenty to choose from.
And yes there is a need to say it in English and Arabic. My church is huge and we always have events going on/sick priests. Especially during the retreat times, when we have one of our Sunday Liturgy with only two priests, Communion can take easily 30-45 minutes.
There are plenty of things to say in 30-45 mins. Saying the full melismatic Psalm 150 will take 15 mins at least. Je Efesmaroot is 3 mins. Efemepsha Ghar is another 10 mins. Then you have a massive selection of madaye7. Time isn't a problem.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12659.msg148694#msg148694 date=1323296281] It's not that people don't want to learn the long tune (well, that's part of it), but usually it's 1-4 deacons who sing it INDIVIDUALLY in their own style, and you can't sing along. But with the refrain, it's faster and everyone can sing along! ;D
I prefer that over listening to deacons have voice competitions.
You could say the same for any melismatic hymn. Should we alter each one just so that people can "sing along?"
Efemempsha Ghar has a nice repeating line "Shere ne o tiparthenos." Try saying that in your church, its seldom heard around these parts.
[quote author=JG link=topic=12659.msg148698#msg148698 date=1323296633] [quote author=TITL link=topic=12659.msg148694#msg148694 date=1323296281] It's not that people don't want to learn the long tune (well, that's part of it), but usually it's 1-4 deacons who sing it INDIVIDUALLY in their own style, and you can't sing along. But with the refrain, it's faster and everyone can sing along! ;D
I prefer that over listening to deacons have voice competitions.
You could say the same for any melismatic hymn. Should we alter each one just so that people can "sing along?"
No, but when there is an alternative, then yes. Btw, I don't think skipping a hymn is an alternative.
But most people want to participate in Communion hymns. Let the girls sing!!
No, because chanting 'properly' actually means: deacons take turn singing verses of Psalm 150 in their own, creative-yet nasally, microphone hogging, chick glancing style one at a time while everyone else waits until they're done.
'Properly' does not mean: all sing together in the same melismatic tune. If it did, I wouldn't be complaining.
The issue you're bringing up about deacons who sing individually is besides the point. Yes, it's a problem, and it needs addressing, but it is irrelevant here.
The problem here is the addition of this refrain to the hymn, without any valid basis. Somebody made this refrain up in Arabic, and decided to sing it. Then someone else decided to translate it (however badly is again irrelevant) into English. Our hymns are not supposed to be messed around with just so "people can sing along." We don't change tradition because some people don't like/can't learn/won't learn/find it difficult to follow our hymns.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12659.msg148709#msg148709 date=1323304240] No Mina, only the second half is for the Annunciation. Apparantly, hybrid made-up responses are the in-thing to do these days.
are we really that desperate.......i believe that this response was originally in arabic. similar to "yonan fe batn elhot"...let's just leave it at that.
[quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=12659.msg148724#msg148724 date=1323310555] So does anyone have an answer? Does khidmat il-shamas say anything about this?
you will not find this response in any khidmit shamas.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12659.msg148709#msg148709 date=1323304240] No Mina, only the second half is for the Annunciation. Apparantly, hybrid made-up responses are the in-thing to do these days.
JG, be careful. TITL is the "Guardian of Credibility" and she'll get you even when you are 100% correct and she is sooooo wrong.
Mina, You quoted imikhail instead of TITL. The refrain for Annunciation is Iyc P,c psyri mV] af[icarx qen ]par;enoc that TITL asked, but imikhail's is fine: pimici ebolqen Viwt af[icarx qen ]par;enoc. I brought up the issue of refrains once before, and most, if not all of you guys went against me including Remenkimi, who today is one of the strong opponents of such. I will look up the link later (because I wasn't the OP there as far as I can remember). Basically, it is not Arabic translated to Coptic as JG says (or maybe with deeper thought it genuinely is), but it starts as taking the "famous" sentences of the major feasts and adding it to the verses of the psalm to make up a hymn (because we lost the psalm 150 tune Lenten - if there has ever been one; and because people don't know the long melismatic psalm 150 joyful - and now it has a second version). Basically, a refrain is adding a new unrelated and fragmented clause as Remenkimi put it to the verses of the psalm. Not good in my opinion (maybe only acceptable for psalm 150 Kiahkly during tasbeha, but no during Communion). What does it mean: "Praise God in all His saints: Jesus Christ fasted for us 40 days and 40 nights". Should it not be "who is Jesus Christ ...". What does it mean "Praise God in all His saints: Jesus Christ the Son of God was born from the Virgin" (although this is more palatable), it is still two separate clauses and for anyone who understands Coptic knows this fact. The only one (and I mean the ONLY) which makes sense is the Resurrection refrain, as it says "Jesus Christ the King of Glory WHO has risen from the dead", but alas... it isn't really translated as such in Arabic or English. Yes, carry on with singing refrains because every body likes it... Orthodox? Faith? Who cares? We only care in other threads of this forum, but not entirely true in reality... Iyc P,c psyri mV]Oujai qen `P[C
Comments
Forgive me: when I said ridiculous, I referred to it's existence, not it's subject matter. As I've said, it is an unnecessary addition. It was never there in the first place. It does not need to be there.
I totally agree that having everyone sing together is a beautiful thing. But chanting fabricated refrains isn't the way to solve the issue: education of the proper melismatic tune is. Or if that is too much to ask, saying a different hymn. There are plenty to choose from. There are plenty of things to say in 30-45 mins. Saying the full melismatic Psalm 150 will take 15 mins at least. Je Efesmaroot is 3 mins. Efemepsha Ghar is another 10 mins. Then you have a massive selection of madaye7. Time isn't a problem.
JG, I order you to stop.
It's not that people don't want to learn the long tune (well, that's part of it), but usually it's 1-4 deacons who sing it INDIVIDUALLY in their own style, and you can't sing along. But with the refrain, it's faster and everyone can sing along! ;D
I prefer that over listening to deacons have voice competitions.
You could say the same for any melismatic hymn. Should we alter each one just so that people can "sing along?"
Efemempsha Ghar has a nice repeating line "Shere ne o tiparthenos." Try saying that in your church, its seldom heard around these parts.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12659.msg148694#msg148694 date=1323296281]
It's not that people don't want to learn the long tune (well, that's part of it), but usually it's 1-4 deacons who sing it INDIVIDUALLY in their own style, and you can't sing along. But with the refrain, it's faster and everyone can sing along! ;D
I prefer that over listening to deacons have voice competitions.
You could say the same for any melismatic hymn. Should we alter each one just so that people can "sing along?"
No, but when there is an alternative, then yes. Btw, I don't think skipping a hymn is an alternative.
But most people want to participate in Communion hymns. Let the girls sing!!
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12659.msg148694#msg148694 date=1323296281]
Btw, I don't think skipping a hymn is an alternative.
Neither do I. I meant for the Psalm 150 to be chanted properly, and then for people to join in on a later hymn for the mass karaoke sing along. What, does being a girl prohibit one from learning the melismatic? :P
No, because chanting 'properly' actually means: deacons take turn singing verses of Psalm 150 in their own, creative-yet nasally, microphone hogging, chick glancing style one at a time while everyone else waits until they're done.
'Properly' does not mean: all sing together in the same melismatic tune.
If it did, I wouldn't be complaining.
[quote author=JG link=topic=12659.msg148700#msg148700 date=1323296975] What, does being a girl prohibit one from learning the melismatic? :P
I know the melismatic tune of Psalm 150, but that doesn't mean I can sing along. No one can.
The problem here is the addition of this refrain to the hymn, without any valid basis. Somebody made this refrain up in Arabic, and decided to sing it. Then someone else decided to translate it (however badly is again irrelevant) into English. Our hymns are not supposed to be messed around with just so "people can sing along." We don't change tradition because some people don't like/can't learn/won't learn/find it difficult to follow our hymns.
We can translate Pimici ebol qen `Viwt af[carx ebol qen ]par;enoc
WE CAN'T USE THIS RESPONSE.....it is for the Annunciation.
JG, be careful. TITL is the "Guardian of Credibility" and she'll get you even when you are 100% correct and she is sooooo wrong.
I'm going to take this up with my Baba Shenouda.
Rem,
Go away.
No Mina, only the second half is for the Annunciation. Apparantly, hybrid made-up responses are the in-thing to do these days.
are we really that desperate.......i believe that this response was originally in arabic. similar to "yonan fe batn elhot"...let's just leave it at that.
So does anyone have an answer? Does khidmat il-shamas say anything about this?
you will not find this response in any khidmit shamas.
what about pimisi evol khen efiot khago oo enni eon teero?
that sentence is part of other hymns where it makes sense. but not here.
No Mina, only the second half is for the Annunciation. Apparantly, hybrid made-up responses are the in-thing to do these days.
JG, be careful. TITL is the "Guardian of Credibility" and she'll get you even when you are 100% correct and she is sooooo wrong.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12659.msg148711#msg148711 date=1323304513]
JG,
I'm going to take this up with my Baba Shenouda.
Rem,
Go away.
;D
You quoted imikhail instead of TITL. The refrain for Annunciation is Iyc P,c psyri mV] af[icarx qen ]par;enoc that TITL asked, but imikhail's is fine: pimici ebolqen Viwt af[icarx qen ]par;enoc.
I brought up the issue of refrains once before, and most, if not all of you guys went against me including Remenkimi, who today is one of the strong opponents of such. I will look up the link later (because I wasn't the OP there as far as I can remember). Basically, it is not Arabic translated to Coptic as JG says (or maybe with deeper thought it genuinely is), but it starts as taking the "famous" sentences of the major feasts and adding it to the verses of the psalm to make up a hymn (because we lost the psalm 150 tune Lenten - if there has ever been one; and because people don't know the long melismatic psalm 150 joyful - and now it has a second version).
Basically, a refrain is adding a new unrelated and fragmented clause as Remenkimi put it to the verses of the psalm. Not good in my opinion (maybe only acceptable for psalm 150 Kiahkly during tasbeha, but no during Communion). What does it mean: "Praise God in all His saints: Jesus Christ fasted for us 40 days and 40 nights". Should it not be "who is Jesus Christ ...". What does it mean "Praise God in all His saints: Jesus Christ the Son of God was born from the Virgin" (although this is more palatable), it is still two separate clauses and for anyone who understands Coptic knows this fact. The only one (and I mean the ONLY) which makes sense is the Resurrection refrain, as it says "Jesus Christ the King of Glory WHO has risen from the dead", but alas... it isn't really translated as such in Arabic or English.
Yes, carry on with singing refrains because every body likes it... Orthodox? Faith? Who cares? We only care in other threads of this forum, but not entirely true in reality...
Iyc P,c psyri mV]Oujai qen `P[C
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,10495.msg127597.html#msg127597
Wasn't a whole host of people going against me "unfortunately"... hehe
Oujai qen `P[C