What is to be done to combat this problem? We are diagnosing it, but what's the remedy?
Should we petition our priests to stop these youth meetings from singing protestant songs and inviting unOrthodox speakers? Should be passively protest by not attending? Should we attend and cause a scene? What is there to do to end this?
For those of you who attend other Orthodox churches, is the infiltration of protestant culture a problem there as well? Or this something that Copts in specific are dealing with?
What is to be done to combat this problem? We are diagnosing it, but what's the remedy?
Should we petition our priests to stop these youth meetings from singing protestant songs and inviting unOrthodox speakers? Should be passively protest by not attending? Should we attend and cause a scene? What is there to do to end this?
Exactly. I think there is a real lack of these sorts of posts across the website (I know that sounds hypocritical lol)
We definetly need to be working with the clergy, rather than against them. And again I have created a FB group that deals with apologetics and one of our main goals is to address this issue of protestantism in the church. But yes we need Fr. Peter on this.
The problem is that some of our closest friends and family members are so caught up in these youth meetings, songs, retreats, etc. that it is hard to tell them the truth without being harsh. . .
More thoughts on how to change the way things are going?
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12797.msg150998#msg150998 date=1327393013] The problem is that some of our closest friends and family members are so caught up in these youth meetings, songs, retreats, etc. that it is hard to tell them the truth without being harsh. . .
More thoughts on how to change the way things are going?
I don't think it something which can be resolved with an explanation; people need to get more value from our Orthodox Tradition. I think Fr. Peters convictions as an example are because you would never want to substitute a superior thing for an inferior.
People are more easily connected with protestant worship because it doesn't take much effort or concentration to be carried away by a good beat or a catchy rhythm.
In the case of Christ's ministry the people who found it hardest to follow Him were the people who grew up with Him in His village because He was just the local boy from down the street; to them it seemed impossible that He was the Messiah. When the time came for His ministry they had been desensitised by living around Him and hence their experience made it so that they couldn't tell Him apart from being just another educated religious teacher.
The same thing is true of our tradition, converts often have stories about how they're converted through the liturgy. It could be things like the smells or the sense of timelessness of it all, for us who've been Orthodox from the cradle like the people of Christ's village we might have fallen asleep a little bit and rather then exhibiting perseverance their attention shortens and they look for things which have more immediate rather than hard earned gratification - we sort of lose any sense of the value of what is literally right in front of us.
I suppose that the first step is probably to show people what the hidden treasures of the Church which they've missed are and the power of the liturgy and Orthodox hymns to unite our souls with God in common action.
The second is to try and encourage them to go out and experience it for themselves; if they find what they're really looking for they won't accept inferior substitutes.
We need to better connect people with their Orthodox tradition; this will be the catalyst of the conversion, I believe if this cannot be done then the tide won't turn.
It is a very difficult thing to speak the truth in love. I found that speaking on this issue, many were polarized to it. Some agreed with me while others did not. A lot of people looked at me as a rebellious Korah or Luther. Because the bishops approve this they thought I was rebelling against them or that I knew more than them. So it was a difficult thing to speak about something that I am very passionate about and have people listen to me and take me seriously. This is why we need priests, and hopefully bishops, on our side. This is the only way to get heard is if a bishop actually sanctions what we are saying. Having a priest or priests certainly is helpful.
I mean this is the kind of thing that keeps me awake at night. I have cried myself to sleep time and time again. I left the anarchy of those churches only to find it creeping in my beloved new home. This is why I choose to write and hopefully these writings can influence others into embracing their church more. Anyways I am working on a new book, this one will hopefully graphically demonstrate my point and leave no room for argument. I just dont get it, why we can boldly proclaim that there is no salvation outside the church, yet we embrace hymns of dead and rebellious churches who are against all that we call holy. Christ tells us not to give what is sacred to the dogs, cast not your pearls to pigs. It seems as if we are taking from the dogs and pigs and bringing it into the church! I don't mean to suggest that protestants are dogs and pigs, but they adhere to a worldly, self directed and anti-Christian Christianity!
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12797.msg150999#msg150999 date=1327394772] I don't think it something which can be resolved with an explanation; people need to get more value from our Orthodox Tradition. I think Fr. Peters convictions as an example are because you would never want to substitute a superior thing for an inferior.
People are more easily connected with protestant worship because it doesn't take much effort or concentration to be carried away by a good beat or a catchy rhythm.
In the case of Christ's ministry the people who found it hardest to follow Him were the people who grew up with Him in His village because He was just the local boy from down the street; to them it seemed impossible that He was the Messiah. When the time came for His ministry they had been desensitised by living around Him and hence their experience made it so that they couldn't tell Him apart from being just another educated religious teacher.
The same thing is true of our tradition, converts often have stories about how they're converted through the liturgy. It could be things like the smells or the sense of timelessness of it all, for us who've been Orthodox from the cradle like the people of Christ's village we might have fallen asleep a little bit and rather then exhibiting perseverance their attention shortens and they look for things which have more immediate rather than hard earned gratification - we sort of lose any sense of the value of what is literally right in front of us.
I suppose that the first step is probably to show people what the hidden treasures of the Church which they've missed are and the power of the liturgy and Orthodox hymns to unite our souls with God in common action.
The second is to try and encourage them to go out and experience it for themselves; if they find what they're really looking for they won't accept inferior substitutes.
We need to better connect people with their Orthodox tradition; this will be the catalyst of the conversion, I believe if this cannot be done then the tide won't turn.
I'm not convinced the issue is education. Indeed to some extent I think that this is part of the problem. When there is a curriculum which is followed, such as is used in the Patriarchate of Alexandria, then simply following the course, and being present in Sunday School classes can easily be confused with actually becoming a Christian.
The verse from Proverbs 29:18 actually speaks of the failure of prophecy, not education, and essentially says that where there is no revelation of God then the people walk in a lawless manner.
This is what we see happening in our own lives, as well as in the lives of communities. It is the loss of the presence of God, speaking into our hearts and into our communities, which allows a lawless manner of life to be entertained. When we no longer hear God speaking to us, or seek after Him with all our heart, then we begin to fall away from life. We start to do things that draw us further away from God, not only things which would be considered outright sin, but filling up our lives with other activities, and substituting an easy fix of religious feeling for abundant life in Christ.
It is a spiritual problem we face, not an academic one. But the problem is multi-faceted. These are not criticisms of any people or place at all, just reflections.
i. Is the Gospel being preached to those who are wandering away? It is a Gospel of repentance and faith. It is a Gospel of life in the Holy Spirit. Or are they being only presented with a morality and a list of behaviours? Are they being taught how to pray so that their whole lives are lived in the presence of God?
ii. Are there mentors who live out the Gospel in such a way that it becomes something which attracts others?
iii. Is the content and substance of our Orthodox Faith presented as a priceless treasure, or as a chore? Does it have perceived spiritual value, or is it just something which has to be perpetuated for ethnic and cultural reasons?
iv. Is it possible to participate in the spirituality of the Church in a language which is accessible? Is this language used grudgingly or with full acceptance?
v. Are the right role-models being put forward? Or are folk being encouraged to adopt a celebrity mentality such as is current in the world around us?
vi. Is there clear teaching that 'the time is short', and that 'this world is passing away'?
vii. Are the opportunities for humble service, and are those who are engaged in such service held up as Christian role models.
viii. Is there any discipline used against the influence of Protestant groups and thinking? Or is it seen that nothing happens if you become a Protestant in your heart, but if you go out with a boy/girl then everyone will be down on you like a ton of bricks?
ix. If you have concerns then are you praying daily for your priests and bishop, and for your congregation. Are you fasting with these concerns on your heart?
x. Are we/you setting a model of Orthodoxy? Are we/you living the Gospel? Are we/you praying services even if no-one turns up?
xi. Are folk who disagree with Protestant influences just turning up to events so as not to rock the boat? To do so seems to me to give assent to such meetings. There is no need for a scene. But there is also no need to sit there and feel uncomfortable. Pray elsewhere, pray the Agpeya with a friend or two and listen to a patristic sermon together, read a chapter of a spiritual book together, pray that others will join you. Seek to live out all that you would wish each person you are concerned about would discover and desire for themselves in our Orthodox Faith.
Most Copts do not appreciate the liturgical life. They do think that the liturgy and praying are two different things. Liturgy became a ritualistic event that is unimportant so long as there are prayer meetings, bible study, social gatherings at the church or outside.
While the lifeblood of the Church is the Eucharist, people ignore it. They simply do not see its value. Why? Because they simply do not understand that without the liturgy there is no Church.
I do state this from long time experience with different Coptic communities throughout the U.S. People would rather go to hear a famous Protestant speaker than come to the Vespers prayers. Few people come to the liturgical services at all, and those who come, come late after the Gospel is read.
People do not follow the communion rules, do not take absolution and when asked the general response is God is merciful and compassionate.
I can go on and on .. I believe that we as Orthodox have focused too much on the spiritual life while alienating the liturgical one. Most sermons revolve around behavioral and moral discipline without tying the Gospel to the liturgical life.
Let me illustrate with this verse from the first epistle of St. Peter verse 2: “ elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ”
How many do understand that the sanctification of the Spirit takes place in the liturgy not just once at Baptism? How many do believe that the sprinkling of the Jesus Christ’s blood actually happens during the liturgy?
As Orthodox we need to live the liturgical life and this will guard us against any Protestantism influence.
How can it be said that we have concentrated too much on the spiritual life if in fact what we are concerned about is the very lack of spiritual life?
It would be a grave danger to suggest that the spiritual life and the liturgical life are different and separate and especially that we should choose the liturgical over the spiritual. Indeed it is incomprehensible to say such a thing.
It is entirely possible to have a congregation which performs the liturgy perfectly, knows all doctrine, and is still not spiritual at all. This is the opposite of the liberal moralism which is sometimes present. But both are deformations of the Christian Gospel.
People must want to attend the liturgy because they wish above all things to be in the presence of God. This is not a matter of education, in the sense of a white board and Power point slides, it is a matter of being slowly transformed so that it is painful to be apart from God.
We could organise hours of lectures but people will not be touched unless there is a spiritual renewal in their lives. There is no need for a false dichotomy of spirituality and liturgy - I am surprised you created one since I did not.
Much of what we do is a false spirituality. That is the problem. And protestantism feeds into that and encourages that. The Liturgy is spirituality, but for the reasons I suggested, and others, it is not treated properly, and people do not see it respected properly, and so do not grow up respecting it properly. But this is not because they have been taught Orthodox spirituality, it is because they have not learned what Orthodox spirituality means.
It would be a grave danger to suggest that the spiritual life and the liturgical life are different and separate and especially that we should choose the liturgical over the spiritual. Indeed it is incomprehensible to say such a thing.
I did not say that at all. What I said is the failure to tie the spiritual life with the liturgical one and that they are inseparable.
We are saturated with sermons and teachings of how to lead a holy life, which is good and commendable. But we fail to tie this teaching to the liturgical life.
If we stop at just saying to love your neighbor without explaining it through the liturgical life, then we have failed.
Protestants do teach the same concept of loving the neighbor. What would make an Orthodox care about the liturgical services if s/he hears the same teachings in both the Protestant gathering and the Orthodox one. Why would one choose one over the other? Because in Orthodox we live the Christian life to its fullest through the liturgical gatherings.
People must understand that without sacramental life, there is no life.
I think you are mistaken in thinking that sermons which talk about moralising issues are the same as spirituality in any sense. They are surely not.
This is what I have been saying all along. What is required is the preaching of the fulness of the Gospel. That there are the same sermons heard in both protestant and Orthodox churches does not mean that spirituality is being taught, it is not. If spirituality were being taught then the liturgy would be properly valued and the altar properly respected.
It would be great if you could post your sermons online father. I find that Coptic Orthodox youth have no good source for Orthodox sermons (don't refer me to the website bearing that name). I listen to the podcasts on ancient faith radio and wish our Church had a source like it.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12797.msg151013#msg151013 date=1327428798] It would be great if you could post your sermons online father. I find that Coptic Orthodox youth have no good source for Orthodox sermons (don't refer me to the website bearing that name). I listen to the podcasts on ancient faith radio and wish our Church had a source like it.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12797.msg151016#msg151016 date=1327435878] If I were to produce some, how long do people like listening for? 15 minutes? 20 minutes?
Keep it short and sweet, Father. I find that the short message with one clear point is the most powerful.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12797.msg151018#msg151018 date=1327436552] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12797.msg151016#msg151016 date=1327435878] If I were to produce some, how long do people like listening for? 15 minutes? 20 minutes?
Keep it short and sweet, Father. I find that the short message with one clear point is the most powerful.
15 minutes.
Yeah I agree. 20 minutes is the max, because then people will better concentrate and remember the most important points. Better short and clear indeed.
I don't get bored easily. For the sake of others' attention span and interest, 7 hours.
Father, just talk and don't worry about the time. Once you run out of words to say, find more and keep talking. And when you've said everything that can be said on that subject, end the sermon.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12797.msg151020#msg151020 date=1327437538] I don't get bored easily. For the sake of others' attention span and interest, 7 hours.
Father, just talk and don't worry about the time. Once you run out of words to say, find more and keep talking. And when you've said everything that can be said on that subject, end the sermon.
Then start a new one.
NOOO!!! End it? No he should not end it he still need to review the subject for 2 more hours and then review the the review. Then and only then, he can end it! People these days SMH
All this discussion makes me wonder if there is a gap in the common Orthodox music which we use in our Churches.
I used to listen to the Liturgy and tasbeha for recreational or leisure but this doesn't sit well with me because its a very special kind of music used for devotional purposes. If you listen to it like normal music you can become a bit desensitised to the feeling in it - it seems best left to mainly Church use where a person can dedicate their full prayerful concentration to it.
I suppose I have heard the reverse about how Children have been raised listening to the tasbeha while they're in their cots and they find the Church and its services very natural from a young age.
I'm not sure if there is a part of the Orthodox canon of hymns which is suitable to be listened to as a form of leisure. Generally speaking we can read Orthodox books, novels, blog posts and so on about topics like growing up, struggles in life, meeting your first love and so on. It is clear that these sorts of themes do exist in Orthodox literature but not so much in Orthodox music - like the Church fathers before us who designated the date for Christmas as bold counter-cultural statement - do we also need to try and fill this gap?
I also wonder since there are scriptural references to using instruments with music in the Old Testament if it is possible to make Orthodox music using contemporary instruments and if so, what would it sound like?
There are those experiments using classical and rock music with plants where the plants grow towards the sweet classical music but are killed by the heavy rock music (I know we're not plants but I think this is an interesting dimension to consider).
If you go to a Coptic Church and are not satisfied with the hymns there, there is something wrong with you. There is nothing that I need outside of what my church offers. There certainly is nothing that I need from a rebellious religion that despises all that we consider essential for salvation. There is nothing that I could possibly desire from a religion who caters to the selfish individual and not to God. I have no need of these things, only what my Coptic Orthodox Church provides me.
No no, don't get me wrong; this isn't a question of whether or not the hymns are Spiritually satisfying.
I guess I'm trying to see if I can find a gap in the market so to speak. There will be times when listening to the liturgy might not be appropriate like if you're going for a jog or something. Because its a physical activity you're kind of disrespecting the liturgy or the tasbeha if you're listening to it by not giving it the prayerful attention it deserves.
I'm wondering if something more lighthearted is appropriate and if so what would that more lighthearted kind of music take the form of?
I certainly don't think that the only music we should ever listen to is Orthodox chant. It seems to me that music, and the making of music, is something which is inherent in human nature, and satisfies a human need, just as food and drink does.
But just because something is musical doesn't mean that it is wholesome or healthy fare. Just as not all food or drink is good for us. More than that, just because music is an aspect of universal human nature and culture doesn't mean that a desire for music must be satisfied at all times. In the same way, to eat is necessary and blameless, but we do not eat at all times, for to be bound by a blameless passion becomes sin.
In regard to music, it seems to me that it is always necessary to be very sensitive to the presence of the Holy Spirit within us, and to avoid any music and lyrics and associations which might grieve the Holy Spirit. One problem is that someone who is immature in the faith, and is not growing in sensitivity to the Holy Spirit, will not easily be able to sense that something is inappropriate, and so broad rule might well be applied to help preserve the heart in purity while such sensitivity is developing over many years. This does not mean that the broad rules become a law, and that if we avoid certain music we are holy, but rather, by avoiding certain music we are more likely to be able to grow in holiness.
Believe me. I have a very wide interest in a very wide range of music. I usually have Spotify running when I am doing secular work. But there is a very great difference between digesting that music which has a spiritual theme and that which has a more general human theme. I might well invite an architect to come and speak to my congregation about how a building is planned and designed. This would be entirely within his experience and skill and whatever he said would not be considered as encroaching on the spiritual life of the congregation. But I would not invite a Buddhist to come and speak about how to pray, because this would be feeding the congregation with a false spiritual diet. Likewise I would not invite someone who was not Orthodox to speak to the congregation in the style of a stand up comedian because the Orthodox spiritual life is not a matter of comedy, and although the congregation might well enjoy the event tremedously, it would be doing them harm and would be a bad diet. Of course I would not invite a lap-dancer or a prostitute to come and speak about their work either because this also has a spiritual component, and the congregation would be nourished with corrupt food.
So I would be very careful indeed who spoke to my congregation. If I wanted them to be taught about prayer or iconography I would be insistent that it must be an Orthodox expert in those subjects who addressed them. Otherwise they would not be taught Orthodox prayer or the Orthodox response to icons. They would be taught a more or less deficient view based on the understanding of the person speaking. And a diet which contains additives, as much as a diet which lacks vitamins, is harmful to the soul.
In regard to music I believe that the same considerations apply. We do have different appreciations of different styles of music at different times in our life. But at the very least I believe that we should consider whether or not the music we are listening to would be suitable to be heard in a mixed group of Orthodox Christians working together on some building project - for instance. I mean that it is not necessary at all in my opinion to only listen to hymns, and that I agree that these can be devalued if associated too easily with secular activities - although all of life is to become prayer.
I do not mean that we have to think would everyone enjoy this style of music, but rather whether there is anything about it which is shameful, unhelpful, offensive, immoral, unspiritual and unholy.
I am speaking about music which is not meant to be used in worship. Music which is to be used in worship must be Orthodox. We are to be formed in Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is Christianity. If a person wishes to have some background music while praying or reading or reflecting the choose music from any of the Orthodox traditions rather than something else. Because what is playing while we are praying will colour our spirituality.
I don't think we should listen to, as a matter of a general rule:
i. Any music which has satanic, or death cult, overtones, whether these are real or promotional.
ii. Any music which contains sexual references, or which uses sexuality to sell records.
iii. Any music which is abusive towards women, or members of other races and ethnicities.
Personally, if I am doing something, I like to have some instrumental music playing. I like early electronic music. I also like some classic British rock. I like some blues. I like choral music. I like folk music.
I never listen to modern evangelical music, because it is designed to communicate a spiritual message and that message is formed in a non-Orthodox, even an anti-Orthodox context.
My son is 12, and plays a number of instruments, including electric guitar, acoustic guitar, piano, drums, electric bass. He is starting to write some songs. I think this gift is a blessing for him. But I do not believe he should write worship music. I do think it is appropriate for him to write ABOUT the Christian experience in a biographical sense. I do think it is appropriate for him to write about human experiences. I do think it is appropriate for him to write songs which express joy at being alive. But I do not believe that this is the same as worship, nor do I believe that this type of music is a proper vehicle for worship. I have been to too many 'worship' events which were no different at all to being at a concert. When I last saw Bob Dylan there was the same sense of fellowship, there were waves of love directed at the stage. But it was just Bob Dylan. Just because it is fun doesn't mean it is worship.
Just because we can doesn't mean we should. Just because we can eat a chocolate cake baked for a family of 12 doesn't mean we should. And just because we could set the Liturgy to a rock score doesn't mean it is appropriate or healthy or godly.
There is nothing wrong, as far as I can see, with an Orthodox person setting their thoughts down in song, and then setting them to music. Music and Song is part of a shared human experience, so that those who listen can say, 'Yes, I understand that. But it is not the same as worship. The emotions are not to be confused with worship. It would be possible to write a song that have everyone crying, but that is not the same as worship, it is just one of the dangerous aspects of music which must always be considered.
Our liturgy could be made much more emotional by the introduction of various musical tricks of the trade. But worship is not about an emotional response to God, it is about a spiritual response.
What am I saying then? That there is a great deal of music which is perfectly useful to Orthodox Christians as they live their human life. But music in the context of worship and prayer is different to music while mowing the garden. That music we do listen to should be wholesome, and it should be possible to produce song based on the Orthodox experience of being human, which is not a substitute for prayer and liturgy, and which is not confused with prayer and liturgy. It is also the case that often those who most want to insist on a freedom of choice are the one's least able to exercise that choice in a healthy and spiritual manner.
I guess I would also want to add that there is a great need for silence in our lives. I am too often on the train sitting behind someone who's earphones are belting out an annoying sound all the way to London. Humans never used to drown out the world so entirely, and if we are unable to bear silence in our own lives as Orthodox Christians then we are both missing out on a gift, and probably have an unhealthy spiritual life. Many times now, I turn the music off, not because I don't like music, but because 'the time is short', we can't do it all, or have it all, and I often just want to be silent in prayer.
I prefer classical music. I used to listen to Pink Floyd, but when I realized that they are "spiritual" and often times nihilistic, I stopped listening to them. I agree with Fr. Peter. My previous post was aimed at spiritual music alone.
Dear Fr Peter, I agree with those who said that a message about 10-20 minutes maximum is the best option. These days, people are busier than ever and the attention span is unfortunately shorter.
Also, the message will be more focused for the person listening. They can go home with 1 or 2 main points to think about rather than a whole bunch of themes and points all jumbled up. You have told me that when people post long posts, they don't even bother reading them. However they will read the 3 line posts which are concise and still deep.
If you've ever heard of Fr. Moses Samaan from St. Demianas church in San Diego, his sermons are the most Orthodox I've ever heard from a Coptic priest.
Comments
What is to be done to combat this problem? We are diagnosing it, but what's the remedy?
Should we petition our priests to stop these youth meetings from singing protestant songs and inviting unOrthodox speakers? Should be passively protest by not attending? Should we attend and cause a scene? What is there to do to end this?
Fr. Peter,
What is to be done to combat this problem? We are diagnosing it, but what's the remedy?
Should we petition our priests to stop these youth meetings from singing protestant songs and inviting unOrthodox speakers? Should be passively protest by not attending? Should we attend and cause a scene? What is there to do to end this?
Exactly. I think there is a real lack of these sorts of posts across the website (I know that sounds hypocritical lol)
More thoughts on how to change the way things are going?
The problem is that some of our closest friends and family members are so caught up in these youth meetings, songs, retreats, etc. that it is hard to tell them the truth without being harsh. . .
More thoughts on how to change the way things are going?
I don't think it something which can be resolved with an explanation; people need to get more value from our Orthodox Tradition. I think Fr. Peters convictions as an example are because you would never want to substitute a superior thing for an inferior.
People are more easily connected with protestant worship because it doesn't take much effort or concentration to be carried away by a good beat or a catchy rhythm.
In the case of Christ's ministry the people who found it hardest to follow Him were the people who grew up with Him in His village because He was just the local boy from down the street; to them it seemed impossible that He was the Messiah. When the time came for His ministry they had been desensitised by living around Him and hence their experience made it so that they couldn't tell Him apart from being just another educated religious teacher.
The same thing is true of our tradition, converts often have stories about how they're converted through the liturgy. It could be things like the smells or the sense of timelessness of it all, for us who've been Orthodox from the cradle like the people of Christ's village we might have fallen asleep a little bit and rather then exhibiting perseverance their attention shortens and they look for things which have more immediate rather than hard earned gratification - we sort of lose any sense of the value of what is literally right in front of us.
I suppose that the first step is probably to show people what the hidden treasures of the Church which they've missed are and the power of the liturgy and Orthodox hymns to unite our souls with God in common action.
The second is to try and encourage them to go out and experience it for themselves; if they find what they're really looking for they won't accept inferior substitutes.
We need to better connect people with their Orthodox tradition; this will be the catalyst of the conversion, I believe if this cannot be done then the tide won't turn.
I mean this is the kind of thing that keeps me awake at night. I have cried myself to sleep time and time again. I left the anarchy of those churches only to find it creeping in my beloved new home. This is why I choose to write and hopefully these writings can influence others into embracing their church more. Anyways I am working on a new book, this one will hopefully graphically demonstrate my point and leave no room for argument. I just dont get it, why we can boldly proclaim that there is no salvation outside the church, yet we embrace hymns of dead and rebellious churches who are against all that we call holy. Christ tells us not to give what is sacred to the dogs, cast not your pearls to pigs. It seems as if we are taking from the dogs and pigs and bringing it into the church! I don't mean to suggest that protestants are dogs and pigs, but they adhere to a worldly, self directed and anti-Christian Christianity!
My people perished for lack of knowledge.
I don't think it something which can be resolved with an explanation; people need to get more value from our Orthodox Tradition. I think Fr. Peters convictions as an example are because you would never want to substitute a superior thing for an inferior.
People are more easily connected with protestant worship because it doesn't take much effort or concentration to be carried away by a good beat or a catchy rhythm.
In the case of Christ's ministry the people who found it hardest to follow Him were the people who grew up with Him in His village because He was just the local boy from down the street; to them it seemed impossible that He was the Messiah. When the time came for His ministry they had been desensitised by living around Him and hence their experience made it so that they couldn't tell Him apart from being just another educated religious teacher.
The same thing is true of our tradition, converts often have stories about how they're converted through the liturgy. It could be things like the smells or the sense of timelessness of it all, for us who've been Orthodox from the cradle like the people of Christ's village we might have fallen asleep a little bit and rather then exhibiting perseverance their attention shortens and they look for things which have more immediate rather than hard earned gratification - we sort of lose any sense of the value of what is literally right in front of us.
I suppose that the first step is probably to show people what the hidden treasures of the Church which they've missed are and the power of the liturgy and Orthodox hymns to unite our souls with God in common action.
The second is to try and encourage them to go out and experience it for themselves; if they find what they're really looking for they won't accept inferior substitutes.
We need to better connect people with their Orthodox tradition; this will be the catalyst of the conversion, I believe if this cannot be done then the tide won't turn.
This is a briliant post. Thoroughly agree.
The verse from Proverbs 29:18 actually speaks of the failure of prophecy, not education, and essentially says that where there is no revelation of God then the people walk in a lawless manner.
This is what we see happening in our own lives, as well as in the lives of communities. It is the loss of the presence of God, speaking into our hearts and into our communities, which allows a lawless manner of life to be entertained. When we no longer hear God speaking to us, or seek after Him with all our heart, then we begin to fall away from life. We start to do things that draw us further away from God, not only things which would be considered outright sin, but filling up our lives with other activities, and substituting an easy fix of religious feeling for abundant life in Christ.
It is a spiritual problem we face, not an academic one. But the problem is multi-faceted. These are not criticisms of any people or place at all, just reflections.
i. Is the Gospel being preached to those who are wandering away? It is a Gospel of repentance and faith. It is a Gospel of life in the Holy Spirit. Or are they being only presented with a morality and a list of behaviours? Are they being taught how to pray so that their whole lives are lived in the presence of God?
ii. Are there mentors who live out the Gospel in such a way that it becomes something which attracts others?
iii. Is the content and substance of our Orthodox Faith presented as a priceless treasure, or as a chore? Does it have perceived spiritual value, or is it just something which has to be perpetuated for ethnic and cultural reasons?
iv. Is it possible to participate in the spirituality of the Church in a language which is accessible? Is this language used grudgingly or with full acceptance?
v. Are the right role-models being put forward? Or are folk being encouraged to adopt a celebrity mentality such as is current in the world around us?
vi. Is there clear teaching that 'the time is short', and that 'this world is passing away'?
vii. Are the opportunities for humble service, and are those who are engaged in such service held up as Christian role models.
viii. Is there any discipline used against the influence of Protestant groups and thinking? Or is it seen that nothing happens if you become a Protestant in your heart, but if you go out with a boy/girl then everyone will be down on you like a ton of bricks?
ix. If you have concerns then are you praying daily for your priests and bishop, and for your congregation. Are you fasting with these concerns on your heart?
x. Are we/you setting a model of Orthodoxy? Are we/you living the Gospel? Are we/you praying services even if no-one turns up?
xi. Are folk who disagree with Protestant influences just turning up to events so as not to rock the boat? To do so seems to me to give assent to such meetings. There is no need for a scene. But there is also no need to sit there and feel uncomfortable. Pray elsewhere, pray the Agpeya with a friend or two and listen to a patristic sermon together, read a chapter of a spiritual book together, pray that others will join you. Seek to live out all that you would wish each person you are concerned about would discover and desire for themselves in our Orthodox Faith.
Most Copts do not appreciate the liturgical life. They do think that the liturgy and praying are two different things. Liturgy became a ritualistic event that is unimportant so long as there are prayer meetings, bible study, social gatherings at the church or outside.
While the lifeblood of the Church is the Eucharist, people ignore it. They simply do not see its value. Why? Because they simply do not understand that without the liturgy there is no Church.
I do state this from long time experience with different Coptic communities throughout the U.S. People would rather go to hear a famous Protestant speaker than come to the Vespers prayers. Few people come to the liturgical services at all, and those who come, come late after the Gospel is read.
People do not follow the communion rules, do not take absolution and when asked the general response is God is merciful and compassionate.
I can go on and on .. I believe that we as Orthodox have focused too much on the spiritual life while alienating the liturgical one. Most sermons revolve around behavioral and moral discipline without tying the Gospel to the liturgical life.
Let me illustrate with this verse from the first epistle of St. Peter verse 2:
“ elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ”
How many do understand that the sanctification of the Spirit takes place in the liturgy not just once at Baptism? How many do believe that the sprinkling of the Jesus Christ’s blood actually happens during the liturgy?
As Orthodox we need to live the liturgical life and this will guard us against any Protestantism influence.
How can it be said that we have concentrated too much on the spiritual life if in fact what we are concerned about is the very lack of spiritual life?
It would be a grave danger to suggest that the spiritual life and the liturgical life are different and separate and especially that we should choose the liturgical over the spiritual. Indeed it is incomprehensible to say such a thing.
It is entirely possible to have a congregation which performs the liturgy perfectly, knows all doctrine, and is still not spiritual at all. This is the opposite of the liberal moralism which is sometimes present. But both are deformations of the Christian Gospel.
People must want to attend the liturgy because they wish above all things to be in the presence of God. This is not a matter of education, in the sense of a white board and Power point slides, it is a matter of being slowly transformed so that it is painful to be apart from God.
We could organise hours of lectures but people will not be touched unless there is a spiritual renewal in their lives. There is no need for a false dichotomy of spirituality and liturgy - I am surprised you created one since I did not.
Much of what we do is a false spirituality. That is the problem. And protestantism feeds into that and encourages that. The Liturgy is spirituality, but for the reasons I suggested, and others, it is not treated properly, and people do not see it respected properly, and so do not grow up respecting it properly. But this is not because they have been taught Orthodox spirituality, it is because they have not learned what Orthodox spirituality means.
We are saturated with sermons and teachings of how to lead a holy life, which is good and commendable. But we fail to tie this teaching to the liturgical life.
If we stop at just saying to love your neighbor without explaining it through the liturgical life, then we have failed.
Protestants do teach the same concept of loving the neighbor. What would make an Orthodox care about the liturgical services if s/he hears the same teachings in both the Protestant gathering and the Orthodox one. Why would one choose one over the other? Because in Orthodox we live the Christian life to its fullest through the liturgical gatherings.
People must understand that without sacramental life, there is no life.
This is what I have been saying all along. What is required is the preaching of the fulness of the Gospel. That there are the same sermons heard in both protestant and Orthodox churches does not mean that spirituality is being taught, it is not. If spirituality were being taught then the liturgy would be properly valued and the altar properly respected.
It would be great if you could post your sermons online father. I find that Coptic Orthodox youth have no good source for Orthodox sermons (don't refer me to the website bearing that name). I listen to the podcasts on ancient faith radio and wish our Church had a source like it.
This made me ;D
Or as long as you can talk without losing your voice.
If I were to produce some, how long do people like listening for? 15 minutes? 20 minutes?
Keep it short and sweet, Father. I find that the short message with one clear point is the most powerful.
15 minutes.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12797.msg151016#msg151016 date=1327435878]
If I were to produce some, how long do people like listening for? 15 minutes? 20 minutes?
Keep it short and sweet, Father. I find that the short message with one clear point is the most powerful.
15 minutes.
Yeah I agree. 20 minutes is the max, because then people will better concentrate and remember the most important points. Better short and clear indeed.
Father, just talk and don't worry about the time. Once you run out of words to say, find more and keep talking. And when you've said everything that can be said on that subject, end the sermon.
Then start a new one.
i would like to join u with the 7 hours, but i would have to limit it to 6 1/2, don't want anyone being tempted to pride!
;)
I don't get bored easily. For the sake of others' attention span and interest, 7 hours.
Father, just talk and don't worry about the time. Once you run out of words to say, find more and keep talking. And when you've said everything that can be said on that subject, end the sermon.
Then start a new one.
NOOO!!! End it? No he should not end it he still need to review the subject for 2 more hours and then review the the review. Then and only then, he can end it! People these days SMH
I used to listen to the Liturgy and tasbeha for recreational or leisure but this doesn't sit well with me because its a very special kind of music used for devotional purposes. If you listen to it like normal music you can become a bit desensitised to the feeling in it - it seems best left to mainly Church use where a person can dedicate their full prayerful concentration to it.
I suppose I have heard the reverse about how Children have been raised listening to the tasbeha while they're in their cots and they find the Church and its services very natural from a young age.
I'm not sure if there is a part of the Orthodox canon of hymns which is suitable to be listened to as a form of leisure. Generally speaking we can read Orthodox books, novels, blog posts and so on about topics like growing up, struggles in life, meeting your first love and so on. It is clear that these sorts of themes do exist in Orthodox literature but not so much in Orthodox music - like the Church fathers before us who designated the date for Christmas as bold counter-cultural statement - do we also need to try and fill this gap?
I also wonder since there are scriptural references to using instruments with music in the Old Testament if it is possible to make Orthodox music using contemporary instruments and if so, what would it sound like?
There are those experiments using classical and rock music with plants where the plants grow towards the sweet classical music but are killed by the heavy rock music (I know we're not plants but I think this is an interesting dimension to consider).
I guess I'm trying to see if I can find a gap in the market so to speak. There will be times when listening to the liturgy might not be appropriate like if you're going for a jog or something. Because its a physical activity you're kind of disrespecting the liturgy or the tasbeha if you're listening to it by not giving it the prayerful attention it deserves.
I'm wondering if something more lighthearted is appropriate and if so what would that more lighthearted kind of music take the form of?
But just because something is musical doesn't mean that it is wholesome or healthy fare. Just as not all food or drink is good for us. More than that, just because music is an aspect of universal human nature and culture doesn't mean that a desire for music must be satisfied at all times. In the same way, to eat is necessary and blameless, but we do not eat at all times, for to be bound by a blameless passion becomes sin.
In regard to music, it seems to me that it is always necessary to be very sensitive to the presence of the Holy Spirit within us, and to avoid any music and lyrics and associations which might grieve the Holy Spirit. One problem is that someone who is immature in the faith, and is not growing in sensitivity to the Holy Spirit, will not easily be able to sense that something is inappropriate, and so broad rule might well be applied to help preserve the heart in purity while such sensitivity is developing over many years. This does not mean that the broad rules become a law, and that if we avoid certain music we are holy, but rather, by avoiding certain music we are more likely to be able to grow in holiness.
Believe me. I have a very wide interest in a very wide range of music. I usually have Spotify running when I am doing secular work. But there is a very great difference between digesting that music which has a spiritual theme and that which has a more general human theme. I might well invite an architect to come and speak to my congregation about how a building is planned and designed. This would be entirely within his experience and skill and whatever he said would not be considered as encroaching on the spiritual life of the congregation. But I would not invite a Buddhist to come and speak about how to pray, because this would be feeding the congregation with a false spiritual diet. Likewise I would not invite someone who was not Orthodox to speak to the congregation in the style of a stand up comedian because the Orthodox spiritual life is not a matter of comedy, and although the congregation might well enjoy the event tremedously, it would be doing them harm and would be a bad diet. Of course I would not invite a lap-dancer or a prostitute to come and speak about their work either because this also has a spiritual component, and the congregation would be nourished with corrupt food.
So I would be very careful indeed who spoke to my congregation. If I wanted them to be taught about prayer or iconography I would be insistent that it must be an Orthodox expert in those subjects who addressed them. Otherwise they would not be taught Orthodox prayer or the Orthodox response to icons. They would be taught a more or less deficient view based on the understanding of the person speaking. And a diet which contains additives, as much as a diet which lacks vitamins, is harmful to the soul.
In regard to music I believe that the same considerations apply. We do have different appreciations of different styles of music at different times in our life. But at the very least I believe that we should consider whether or not the music we are listening to would be suitable to be heard in a mixed group of Orthodox Christians working together on some building project - for instance. I mean that it is not necessary at all in my opinion to only listen to hymns, and that I agree that these can be devalued if associated too easily with secular activities - although all of life is to become prayer.
I do not mean that we have to think would everyone enjoy this style of music, but rather whether there is anything about it which is shameful, unhelpful, offensive, immoral, unspiritual and unholy.
I am speaking about music which is not meant to be used in worship. Music which is to be used in worship must be Orthodox. We are to be formed in Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is Christianity. If a person wishes to have some background music while praying or reading or reflecting the choose music from any of the Orthodox traditions rather than something else. Because what is playing while we are praying will colour our spirituality.
I don't think we should listen to, as a matter of a general rule:
i. Any music which has satanic, or death cult, overtones, whether these are real or promotional.
ii. Any music which contains sexual references, or which uses sexuality to sell records.
iii. Any music which is abusive towards women, or members of other races and ethnicities.
Personally, if I am doing something, I like to have some instrumental music playing. I like early electronic music. I also like some classic British rock. I like some blues. I like choral music. I like folk music.
I never listen to modern evangelical music, because it is designed to communicate a spiritual message and that message is formed in a non-Orthodox, even an anti-Orthodox context.
My son is 12, and plays a number of instruments, including electric guitar, acoustic guitar, piano, drums, electric bass. He is starting to write some songs. I think this gift is a blessing for him. But I do not believe he should write worship music. I do think it is appropriate for him to write ABOUT the Christian experience in a biographical sense. I do think it is appropriate for him to write about human experiences. I do think it is appropriate for him to write songs which express joy at being alive. But I do not believe that this is the same as worship, nor do I believe that this type of music is a proper vehicle for worship. I have been to too many 'worship' events which were no different at all to being at a concert. When I last saw Bob Dylan there was the same sense of fellowship, there were waves of love directed at the stage. But it was just Bob Dylan. Just because it is fun doesn't mean it is worship.
Just because we can doesn't mean we should. Just because we can eat a chocolate cake baked for a family of 12 doesn't mean we should. And just because we could set the Liturgy to a rock score doesn't mean it is appropriate or healthy or godly.
There is nothing wrong, as far as I can see, with an Orthodox person setting their thoughts down in song, and then setting them to music. Music and Song is part of a shared human experience, so that those who listen can say, 'Yes, I understand that. But it is not the same as worship. The emotions are not to be confused with worship. It would be possible to write a song that have everyone crying, but that is not the same as worship, it is just one of the dangerous aspects of music which must always be considered.
Our liturgy could be made much more emotional by the introduction of various musical tricks of the trade. But worship is not about an emotional response to God, it is about a spiritual response.
What am I saying then? That there is a great deal of music which is perfectly useful to Orthodox Christians as they live their human life. But music in the context of worship and prayer is different to music while mowing the garden. That music we do listen to should be wholesome, and it should be possible to produce song based on the Orthodox experience of being human, which is not a substitute for prayer and liturgy, and which is not confused with prayer and liturgy. It is also the case that often those who most want to insist on a freedom of choice are the one's least able to exercise that choice in a healthy and spiritual manner.
I guess I would also want to add that there is a great need for silence in our lives. I am too often on the train sitting behind someone who's earphones are belting out an annoying sound all the way to London. Humans never used to drown out the world so entirely, and if we are unable to bear silence in our own lives as Orthodox Christians then we are both missing out on a gift, and probably have an unhealthy spiritual life. Many times now, I turn the music off, not because I don't like music, but because 'the time is short', we can't do it all, or have it all, and I often just want to be silent in prayer.
Your responses never get boring! :)
GB
Also, the message will be more focused for the person listening. They can go home with 1 or 2 main points to think about rather than a whole bunch of themes and points all jumbled up. You have told me that when people post long posts, they don't even bother reading them. However they will read the 3 line posts which are concise and still deep.
If you've ever heard of Fr. Moses Samaan from St. Demianas church in San Diego, his sermons are the most Orthodox I've ever heard from a Coptic priest.
http://www.saintdemianachurch.org/sermons/