Dear Mina, I'm not comfortable with the examples you gave, even if priests and pope Shenouda say so..! Dear Amoussa1, We don't know if she was a cantor.. it was mentioned that she was an old lady, but a cantor, I'm not sure.. Oujai
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12807.msg150547#msg150547 date=1326753514] Dear Mina, I'm not comfortable with the examples you gave, even if priests and pope Shenouda say so..!
I believe you have some problems with that belief that you need to deal with on your own.
I am not giving you example of 'an incident' but something that is happening--Nuns, WHO ARE NOT of clergy, do tasbeha on their own without any males. No where in books you'll see a separation between male and female but the separation is always between laymen (that included women) and different ranks of clergymen. Any other separation is based on tradition....which i am not against, but the distinction needs to be clear.
What if there are females who know hymns that Deacons don't; should they be unsaid? Or when the Deacons vest into their Tonias, are the ladies allowed to sing Tenoo-ousht/Shere Maria alone? How about in Communion when there aren't any Deacons to lead Psalm 150?
I think circumstances are handled differently in smaller churches (because it's less awkward for females to sing alone) than in larger churches.
When I used to attend the Weekday Liturgies in a big church, (less than a handful of people would attend, mostly retired elders who don't know the basic annual hymns), I would be too embarrassed to raise my voice, so I didn't. But in the small community I'm in now, even with the well-learned Deacons, I'm more comfortable singing alone and leading certain hymns with other females. For example, we switch off in Hiten with the Deacons (they sing one stanza, we sing the next), in Communion we do the same, and for tasbeha there aren't any Deacons who attend so we have ladies switching between themselves.
I think once we have a bigger church and get more Deacons, things will be a lot different.
This isn't a question of whether women can sing along with men or "switch-off". . .the issue was whether a woman should lead a man in praise. Of course, there may be circumstances when the males do not know any hymns that need to be said, but let's put those aside.
What if both sexes know the hymns correctly, is it proper for a woman to lead?
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12807.msg150556#msg150556 date=1326759892] This isn't a question of whether women can sing along with men or "switch-off". . .the issue was whether a woman should lead a man in praise. Of course, there may be circumstances when the males do not know any hymns that need to be said, but let's put those aside.
What if both sexes know the hymns correctly, is it proper for a woman to lead?
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12807.msg150556#msg150556 date=1326759892] This isn't a question of whether women can sing along with men or "switch-off". . .the issue was whether a woman should lead a man in praise. Of course, there may be circumstances when the males do not know any hymns that need to be said, but let's put those aside.
What if both sexes know the hymns correctly, is it proper for a woman to lead?
there are some things to consider here....the knowledge comes with discipline to both. I would assume that the man is a deacon and he knows his role to gently lead the women is understanding to know that the man there should lead, being a deacon, a clergyman.
I (being a male) still don't understand what is so wrong with a female leading the congregational responses and hymns of the liturgy. Most 'deacons' in the church are not even deacons so this has nothing to do with the clergy and we should not even be wearing the tonia or the badrashayn as these vestments are clerical vestments in connection with the altar service. What happens outside the altar is completely laity...unless of course there are the cantors which are designated persons to chant the liturgy. I think because today there is no distinction between the cantor who chants 'outside' the iconostasis and the cantor who serves as a 'deacon' inside at the altar, that many people wrongly associate the two services.
For several years, we moved around and during that time we went to an Antiochian Orthodox parish which was predominantly of Middle Eastern descent. The chorus was lead by a male and there were 2 other males as well as 5 females who all sung around the mangalia in a semi-circle. None of them dared approach the altar since their service was to chant the liturgy, not serve at the altar.
When I was very young, at the (Coptic Orth) parish I was baptized at, the priest had the cantors leading at the north side and a women's chorus on the south side (but sitting in the congregation pews) up front and they would alternate antiphonally between verses and would sing the rest together..it sounded very nice, almost like the David Ensemble minus instrumentation.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12807.msg150560#msg150560 date=1326772326] The priest cannot pray the liturgy unless there is at least a Psaltos present, though there may be 100 ladies present.
In this instance the Psaltos is acting as a full deacon. So, ladies cannot lead.
but that psaltos' duty is IN THE ALTAR WITH THE PRIEST for the deacon's response and not the people's response. I was in the position before.
at one liturgy years ago I attended, I had to do both the psaltos parts and the altar service...it was interesting chanting 'tai shouri' from within the altar while holding the cross and gospel (beshara) going around the altar.
Thanks Mina for putting me right.. I guess I really have problems of my own that I need to work on.. and I never objected to ladies leading services when no man is present.. but when there's one he takes a superior role in leading even if he doesn't know everything.. there will come humility, if he wants to take guidance from ladies, but this is exceptional and not the order of things.. as imikhail stated, ebsaltos presence is important, other than any deacon serving inside.. the ebsaltos by definition doesn't serve inside.. you may phone up cantor Ibrahim Ayad himself to confirm.. DEar TITL and timothym, I guess the answer is in imikhail's statement.. Oujai
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150563#msg150563 date=1326773257] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12807.msg150560#msg150560 date=1326772326] The priest cannot pray the liturgy unless there is at least a Psaltos present, though there may be 100 ladies present.
In this instance the Psaltos is acting as a full deacon. So, ladies cannot lead.
but that psaltos' duty is IN THE ALTAR WITH THE PRIEST for the deacon's response and not the people's response. I was in the position before.
In this case it would be for both for the deacon also leads the psaltos and one of the deacon's duties is to make sure the lower ranks are fulfilling their duties.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12807.msg150586#msg150586 date=1326803886] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150563#msg150563 date=1326773257] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12807.msg150560#msg150560 date=1326772326] The priest cannot pray the liturgy unless there is at least a Psaltos present, though there may be 100 ladies present.
In this instance the Psaltos is acting as a full deacon. So, ladies cannot lead.
but that psaltos' duty is IN THE ALTAR WITH THE PRIEST for the deacon's response and not the people's response. I was in the position before.
In this case it would be for both for the deacon also leads the psaltos and one of the deacon's duties is to make sure the lower ranks are fulfilling their duties.
All books say that you need a priest, a deacon and another person to be of the people. Show a source that says the deacon leads the congregation and also does his duties as a deacon.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150595#msg150595 date=1326818935] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12807.msg150586#msg150586 date=1326803886] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150563#msg150563 date=1326773257] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12807.msg150560#msg150560 date=1326772326] The priest cannot pray the liturgy unless there is at least a Psaltos present, though there may be 100 ladies present.
In this instance the Psaltos is acting as a full deacon. So, ladies cannot lead.
but that psaltos' duty is IN THE ALTAR WITH THE PRIEST for the deacon's response and not the people's response. I was in the position before.
In this case it would be for both for the deacon also leads the psaltos and one of the deacon's duties is to make sure the lower ranks are fulfilling their duties.
All books say that you need a priest, a deacon and another person to be of the people. Show a source that says the deacon leads the congregation and also does his duties as a deacon.
I said "leads the psaltos". If there are no psaltos, then he becomes the deacon and the psaltos.
Read the instructions in the Khoulaji by Abouna Abd Al Messieh AlMas3oodi printed in 1902.
I encourage you to read them all, they are an excellent source. If you need help let me know.
i went once to a liturgy with 1 priest, 1 reader and 2 ladies. (it was really early in the morning) so us two ladies lead each other in the singing! we weren't very good at it, but we worshiped God.
imikhail, by saying that you are adding an extra person need for liturgy. Now you need a priest, a deacon to serve in, an epsaltos to sing and a laymen memebr.
If it is not a burden please post scans of the kholagi.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150632#msg150632 date=1326841818] imikhail, by saying that you are adding an extra person need for liturgy. Now you need a priest, a deacon to serve in, an epsaltos to sing and a laymen memebr.
If it is not a burden please post scans of the kholagi.
No, I did not say that or meant to say that. Sorry for the confusion .. let me be clear.
There are three needed for the liturgy: The priest, the deacon and the layman.
I will see about referring you to the exact page because the khoulaji is about 800 pages and will be difficult to scan.
I'm not going to comment on the ladies, the girls, etc.
The real problem, and deserving of the criticism, are in the deacons. Did the deacons show up prepared?...No. Did the deacons arrange for coverage for the Liturgy?...No (It's amazing they have lists for serving in the altar, they have excel spreadsheets for the responses, but nobody cares about making sure that there are people to serve in the middle-of-the-week Liturgies or services.) God forbid anyone is around for a funeral. There is no glory or camera on funeral days. Do the cool deacons, who head out for Saturday partying care about the Tasbeha?...No Do the cool deacons, care about a service without much limelight?...No
Do the deacons complain when the females embarass them?...Yes
The problem is not in the priest, or the women, the problem, yet again, is in a set of males who are ill -prepared for service other than a stage production or rock concert.
ilovesaintmark.......i do hope that you are atleast preaching and teaching ways to fix those problems in your church atleast. what's the point of telling us the problem if you can't fix it or atleast help do so?! action needs to be taken with discretion to fix these problems....otherwise, with all due respect, i think we need to stop babbling about this.
There is an ugly aspect to the "diaconate" that is developing. It is the concept of "thuggism". It is being loud and violent in the altar. It is being a cry baby, and a reflection of being ill-prepared and ill-disciplined for any rank in the diaconate.
I do lead, at times. I do teach, at times. I do mentor, rarely.
Honestly, I just don't see the spirit of service--at all. I find it all to be a show. I am not a little kid. I'm sure you have realized that by now. There is no babbling on my part. I tell it like it is.
I find it bizarre that someone can put on a tonia, throw open the altar curtain, do some skit in the main altar, post it on YouTube and think it is funny. I find it bizarre that people lean, touch, and drool on the altar.
These things are alien to me.
What discretion would there be if a person is in the process of kissing a girl in the back of the church after he has done his rock concert in the front of the church? What discretion would there be for throwing your tonia on a parked car?
I actually offered a solution in my previous post--indirectly. Deacons should be planning coverage for Liturgies, Tasbeha, etc. They should know the service times and dates of these rites. Deacons should be planning for these things and not do the "ebi brosevki..." and fly out of the church for the after rock concert get together.
Being a deacon is a serious thing. It is not the standing in a row to imitate the Cathedral Choir. Being a deacon is not a wannabe calling.
The crux of the original post was from a girl/young lady. There was an overall approach or scheme that developed. I offered my opinion. The girls are not the problem. It is the boys/lads/young men. They did not do their job.
I think the girls, for the most part, act in innocence and not in the manner of being boisterous or hubric like the boys.
For the boys, it is a slap in the face, and an insult. It is to say, a reality check: you haven't carried out your service in ministry.
People like to criticize me, as well they have the right, but I have yet to see anyone get to the problem. I think people like to avoid the issues, paint colors over the issues, and try to say the wonderful lines of "absolution": 'he will grow out of it', 'it is not my business', 'let abouna take care of it', 'why don't you just stand and pray', etc, etc. Those comments are all cop-outs, and an expression of cowardice.
Reality: the deacons are spoiled, selfish, ill-mannered, ill-prepared, brats with a twist of acting like childish thugs.
If you want a solution: get rid of 90% and you will have a better situation. At least there will be less of a sin. So the boy that goes to the back during communion to have his way with the girls is not in a tonia...it is less of a sin (so to speak).
I find that in a corporate setting, the more you hire, the less gets done. A true, and well functioning corporation, requires leadership to get the most out of the personnel at hand. I mean that the one who sticks his face in the microphone and pretends to be a leader, should be the one working with the priest to set coverage for the services. That same microphone sucking person should be the one leading the cleaning and organization of the altar. That same person should be instructing the kids about dealing with their elders, etc., etc., etc.
The first aspect of dealing with a problem, is identifying it correctly. Thereafter, solutions may be set. If a given solution is not working, then one must change course. Is the given system working?...No. We need to change course and get back to basics. Mina, I try.
For some reason we seem to feel that as Copts if there are just enough deacons to cover the liturgy then thats not good enough. No we need soo many deacons that they can't all fit on the chorus and they are all crowded around the altar.
But, why? Enough of this. I know everyone wants to participate, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the reverence of the church. Reverence is key. I know of one local Coptic parish in which the priests do not allow those serving at the altar to touch the altar table and therefore they must hold their books in their hands. The same principle applies in many other Orthodox parishes and this is correct since only ordained clergy can touch the altar and let us not forget that us being 'deacons' is nothing but economia: an exception to the rule because of necessity since there are few to no truly ordained deacons in most parishes.
If the pews on the chorus can only hold 10 cantors it is best that only 10 go up and actually do their service rather than folding their arms and staring off into space as often happens. If that church for example has 50 cantors, then a rotating schedule could be put in effect so that every 'deacon' gets a chance to serve liturgically.
It boils down to 2 issues I think: 1. disorganization and 2. a sense of entitlement versus a desire to serve responsibly. Many 'deacons' think "its my right to serve at the altar" but few are willing to initiate cleaning the carpet, putting away the books etc.
Of all the things that I have read you saying on this site, I have never agreed more. The deaconte in the Coptic church is being destroyed. I stopped being a deacon unless my priest forces me to, which he often does. Why can we not get smart about the ranks and only ordain people who can carry out the responsibilities properly and honestly? We need to stop ordaining children, and babies so that they can "stand with Baba and sing." The deaconate shuold be taken seriously starting with Psaltos up.
We also need to have "try-outs" for the deaconate and for elevation of rank like they do in Maadi cairo. A curriculum is given out in the summer of hymns and Theology that need to be learned for each rank are distributed. At the end of the summer the Bishop of the diocese comes in along with Anba Rofael and they test everyone. You can apply for a higher rank one step at a time after extensive learning and service, as well as testing of personality and witnessing. This is what we should do.
Now, we have children running around in tonias half their size, kids fighting over the mic. Sometime, I walk into church and am forced by Abouna to be a deacon, Once I go and stand with the deacons, the leader gets al threatened and he tries to give me the mic (like take it but don't take it because I actually want it). That bothers me, I don't want your mic, and don't want to sing in a loud voice, I want to pray. I also don't like when the leader tries to get everyone hype, or when a group of youth decide to do their own thing. Like the youth will take over a liturgy and make it "fun" (loud singing, thug life cymbals) and it really ruins the liturgy.
The deaconate is broken. Can we fix it?
1) Stop ordaining children. 2) Stop ordaining people because every little boy should grow up in a tonia. It is the Egyptian thing to do. 3) Educate the deacons. All ordained Deacons should attend deacon classes. 4) Remove the microphone. Have the deacons sing as a choir rather then 1 guy leading, his 3 friends helping him out, and every other kid around picking his nose because he is bored and feels that his being there is useless.
Regarding the woman problem, if there are ordained servants around, a woman should keep silence. Problem is that a lot of these ordained servants don't now anything. Solution: Stop ordaining servants who don't know anything!
I know you tend see things from a different perspective (a Deacon's perspective), but regarding my previous post about girls chanting/leading in hymns, do you think it's better if the responses are skipped than for the girls to sing alone? I know you indirectly answered my post in your reply, but which of the two options do you think is more appropriate?
imikhail and ophadece already answered me, but since you're already posting here... ;D
PS: Girls are not innocent; don't be easy on us. We're the ones in the back of the church complimenting/insulting the boys on their rock concert performance. Only priests are innocent.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12807.msg150718#msg150718 date=1326915617] I know you tend see things from a different perspective (a Deacon's perspective), but regarding my previous post about girls chanting/leading in hymns, do you think it's better if the responses are skipped than for the girls to sing alone? I know you indirectly answered my post in your reply, but which of the two options do you think is more appropriate?
I know this was directed at ILSM, but this question is just ridiculous.
Comments
I'm not comfortable with the examples you gave, even if priests and pope Shenouda say so..!
Dear Amoussa1,
We don't know if she was a cantor.. it was mentioned that she was an old lady, but a cantor, I'm not sure..
Oujai
Dear Mina,
I'm not comfortable with the examples you gave, even if priests and pope Shenouda say so..!
I believe you have some problems with that belief that you need to deal with on your own.
I am not giving you example of 'an incident' but something that is happening--Nuns, WHO ARE NOT of clergy, do tasbeha on their own without any males. No where in books you'll see a separation between male and female but the separation is always between laymen (that included women) and different ranks of clergymen. Any other separation is based on tradition....which i am not against, but the distinction needs to be clear.
I think circumstances are handled differently in smaller churches (because it's less awkward for females to sing alone) than in larger churches.
When I used to attend the Weekday Liturgies in a big church, (less than a handful of people would attend, mostly retired elders who don't know the basic annual hymns), I would be too embarrassed to raise my voice, so I didn't. But in the small community I'm in now, even with the well-learned Deacons, I'm more comfortable singing alone and leading certain hymns with other females. For example, we switch off in Hiten with the Deacons (they sing one stanza, we sing the next), in Communion we do the same, and for tasbeha there aren't any Deacons who attend so we have ladies switching between themselves.
I think once we have a bigger church and get more Deacons, things will be a lot different.
What if both sexes know the hymns correctly, is it proper for a woman to lead?
This isn't a question of whether women can sing along with men or "switch-off". . .the issue was whether a woman should lead a man in praise. Of course, there may be circumstances when the males do not know any hymns that need to be said, but let's put those aside.
What if both sexes know the hymns correctly, is it proper for a woman to lead?
No it is not for man was created first.
This isn't a question of whether women can sing along with men or "switch-off". . .the issue was whether a woman should lead a man in praise. Of course, there may be circumstances when the males do not know any hymns that need to be said, but let's put those aside.
What if both sexes know the hymns correctly, is it proper for a woman to lead?
there are some things to consider here....the knowledge comes with discipline to both. I would assume that the man is a deacon and he knows his role to gently lead the women is understanding to know that the man there should lead, being a deacon, a clergyman.
For several years, we moved around and during that time we went to an Antiochian Orthodox parish which was predominantly of Middle Eastern descent. The chorus was lead by a male and there were 2 other males as well as 5 females who all sung around the mangalia in a semi-circle. None of them dared approach the altar since their service was to chant the liturgy, not serve at the altar.
When I was very young, at the (Coptic Orth) parish I was baptized at, the priest had the cantors leading at the north side and a women's chorus on the south side (but sitting in the congregation pews) up front and they would alternate antiphonally between verses and would sing the rest together..it sounded very nice, almost like the David Ensemble minus instrumentation.
In this instance the Psaltos is acting as a full deacon. So, ladies cannot lead.
The priest cannot pray the liturgy unless there is at least a Psaltos present, though there may be 100 ladies present.
In this instance the Psaltos is acting as a full deacon. So, ladies cannot lead.
but that psaltos' duty is IN THE ALTAR WITH THE PRIEST for the deacon's response and not the people's response. I was in the position before.
DEar TITL and timothym,
I guess the answer is in imikhail's statement..
Oujai
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12807.msg150560#msg150560 date=1326772326]
The priest cannot pray the liturgy unless there is at least a Psaltos present, though there may be 100 ladies present.
In this instance the Psaltos is acting as a full deacon. So, ladies cannot lead.
but that psaltos' duty is IN THE ALTAR WITH THE PRIEST for the deacon's response and not the people's response. I was in the position before.
In this case it would be for both for the deacon also leads the psaltos and one of the deacon's duties is to make sure the lower ranks are fulfilling their duties.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150563#msg150563 date=1326773257]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12807.msg150560#msg150560 date=1326772326]
The priest cannot pray the liturgy unless there is at least a Psaltos present, though there may be 100 ladies present.
In this instance the Psaltos is acting as a full deacon. So, ladies cannot lead.
but that psaltos' duty is IN THE ALTAR WITH THE PRIEST for the deacon's response and not the people's response. I was in the position before.
In this case it would be for both for the deacon also leads the psaltos and one of the deacon's duties is to make sure the lower ranks are fulfilling their duties.
All books say that you need a priest, a deacon and another person to be of the people. Show a source that says the deacon leads the congregation and also does his duties as a deacon.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12807.msg150586#msg150586 date=1326803886]
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150563#msg150563 date=1326773257]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12807.msg150560#msg150560 date=1326772326]
The priest cannot pray the liturgy unless there is at least a Psaltos present, though there may be 100 ladies present.
In this instance the Psaltos is acting as a full deacon. So, ladies cannot lead.
but that psaltos' duty is IN THE ALTAR WITH THE PRIEST for the deacon's response and not the people's response. I was in the position before.
In this case it would be for both for the deacon also leads the psaltos and one of the deacon's duties is to make sure the lower ranks are fulfilling their duties.
All books say that you need a priest, a deacon and another person to be of the people. Show a source that says the deacon leads the congregation and also does his duties as a deacon.
I said "leads the psaltos". If there are no psaltos, then he becomes the deacon and the psaltos.
Read the instructions in the Khoulaji by Abouna Abd Al Messieh AlMas3oodi printed in 1902.
I encourage you to read them all, they are an excellent source. If you need help let me know.
we weren't very good at it, but we worshiped God.
And youre a girl right!?!!!!
If it is not a burden please post scans of the kholagi.
imikhail, by saying that you are adding an extra person need for liturgy. Now you need a priest, a deacon to serve in, an epsaltos to sing and a laymen memebr.
If it is not a burden please post scans of the kholagi.
No, I did not say that or meant to say that. Sorry for the confusion .. let me be clear.
There are three needed for the liturgy: The priest, the deacon and the layman.
I will see about referring you to the exact page because the khoulaji is about 800 pages and will be difficult to scan.
I didn't use a microphone (my church is too small for one anyway; the Deacons don't even use one, unless they're reading an Epistle or the Gospel).
An episcopal dispensation can remove the layman from the equation.
The real problem, and deserving of the criticism, are in the deacons.
Did the deacons show up prepared?...No.
Did the deacons arrange for coverage for the Liturgy?...No
(It's amazing they have lists for serving in the altar, they have excel spreadsheets for the responses, but nobody cares about making sure that there are people to serve in the middle-of-the-week Liturgies or services.)
God forbid anyone is around for a funeral. There is no glory or camera on funeral days.
Do the cool deacons, who head out for Saturday partying care about the Tasbeha?...No
Do the cool deacons, care about a service without much limelight?...No
Do the deacons complain when the females embarass them?...Yes
The problem is not in the priest, or the women, the problem, yet again, is in a set of males who are ill -prepared for service other than a stage production or rock concert.
Leave the priests alone...leave the girls alone.
There is an ugly aspect to the "diaconate" that is developing. It is the concept of "thuggism". It is being loud and violent in the altar. It is being a cry baby, and a reflection of being ill-prepared and ill-disciplined for any rank in the diaconate.
I do lead, at times.
I do teach, at times.
I do mentor, rarely.
Honestly, I just don't see the spirit of service--at all. I find it all to be a show. I am not a little kid. I'm sure you have realized that by now. There is no babbling on my part. I tell it like it is.
I find it bizarre that someone can put on a tonia, throw open the altar curtain, do some skit in the main altar, post it on YouTube and think it is funny. I find it bizarre that people lean, touch, and drool on the altar.
These things are alien to me.
What discretion would there be if a person is in the process of kissing a girl in the back of the church after he has done his rock concert in the front of the church?
What discretion would there be for throwing your tonia on a parked car?
I actually offered a solution in my previous post--indirectly.
Deacons should be planning coverage for Liturgies, Tasbeha, etc. They should know the service times and dates of these rites. Deacons should be planning for these things and not do the "ebi brosevki..." and fly out of the church for the after rock concert get together.
Being a deacon is a serious thing. It is not the standing in a row to imitate the Cathedral Choir. Being a deacon is not a wannabe calling.
The crux of the original post was from a girl/young lady. There was an overall approach or scheme that developed. I offered my opinion. The girls are not the problem. It is the boys/lads/young men. They did not do their job.
I think the girls, for the most part, act in innocence and not in the manner of being boisterous or hubric like the boys.
For the boys, it is a slap in the face, and an insult. It is to say, a reality check: you haven't carried out your service in ministry.
People like to criticize me, as well they have the right, but I have yet to see anyone get to the problem. I think people like to avoid the issues, paint colors over the issues, and try to say the wonderful lines of "absolution": 'he will grow out of it', 'it is not my business', 'let abouna take care of it', 'why don't you just stand and pray', etc, etc.
Those comments are all cop-outs, and an expression of cowardice.
Reality: the deacons are spoiled, selfish, ill-mannered, ill-prepared, brats with a twist of acting like childish thugs.
If you want a solution: get rid of 90% and you will have a better situation. At least there will be less of a sin. So the boy that goes to the back during communion to have his way with the girls is not in a tonia...it is less of a sin (so to speak).
I find that in a corporate setting, the more you hire, the less gets done. A true, and well functioning corporation, requires leadership to get the most out of the personnel at hand. I mean that the one who sticks his face in the microphone and pretends to be a leader, should be the one working with the priest to set coverage for the services. That same microphone sucking person should be the one leading the cleaning and organization of the altar. That same person should be instructing the kids about dealing with their elders, etc., etc., etc.
The first aspect of dealing with a problem, is identifying it correctly. Thereafter, solutions may be set. If a given solution is not working, then one must change course. Is the given system working?...No. We need to change course and get back to basics.
Mina, I try.
I couldn't agree more with your post :)
For some reason we seem to feel that as Copts if there are just enough deacons to cover the liturgy then thats not good enough. No we need soo many deacons that they can't all fit on the chorus and they are all crowded around the altar.
But, why? Enough of this. I know everyone wants to participate, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the reverence of the church. Reverence is key. I know of one local Coptic parish in which the priests do not allow those serving at the altar to touch the altar table and therefore they must hold their books in their hands. The same principle applies in many other Orthodox parishes and this is correct since only ordained clergy can touch the altar and let us not forget that us being 'deacons' is nothing but economia: an exception to the rule because of necessity since there are few to no truly ordained deacons in most parishes.
If the pews on the chorus can only hold 10 cantors it is best that only 10 go up and actually do their service rather than folding their arms and staring off into space as often happens. If that church for example has 50 cantors, then a rotating schedule could be put in effect so that every 'deacon' gets a chance to serve liturgically.
It boils down to 2 issues I think: 1. disorganization and 2. a sense of entitlement versus a desire to serve responsibly. Many 'deacons' think "its my right to serve at the altar" but few are willing to initiate cleaning the carpet, putting away the books etc.
Of all the things that I have read you saying on this site, I have never agreed more. The deaconte in the Coptic church is being destroyed. I stopped being a deacon unless my priest forces me to, which he often does. Why can we not get smart about the ranks and only ordain people who can carry out the responsibilities properly and honestly? We need to stop ordaining children, and babies so that they can "stand with Baba and sing." The deaconate shuold be taken seriously starting with Psaltos up.
We also need to have "try-outs" for the deaconate and for elevation of rank like they do in Maadi cairo. A curriculum is given out in the summer of hymns and Theology that need to be learned for each rank are distributed. At the end of the summer the Bishop of the diocese comes in along with Anba Rofael and they test everyone. You can apply for a higher rank one step at a time after extensive learning and service, as well as testing of personality and witnessing. This is what we should do.
Now, we have children running around in tonias half their size, kids fighting over the mic. Sometime, I walk into church and am forced by Abouna to be a deacon, Once I go and stand with the deacons, the leader gets al threatened and he tries to give me the mic (like take it but don't take it because I actually want it). That bothers me, I don't want your mic, and don't want to sing in a loud voice, I want to pray. I also don't like when the leader tries to get everyone hype, or when a group of youth decide to do their own thing. Like the youth will take over a liturgy and make it "fun" (loud singing, thug life cymbals) and it really ruins the liturgy.
The deaconate is broken. Can we fix it?
1) Stop ordaining children.
2) Stop ordaining people because every little boy should grow up in a tonia. It is the Egyptian thing to do.
3) Educate the deacons. All ordained Deacons should attend deacon classes.
4) Remove the microphone. Have the deacons sing as a choir rather then 1 guy leading, his 3 friends helping him out, and every other kid around picking his nose because he is bored and feels that his being there is useless.
Regarding the woman problem, if there are ordained servants around, a woman should keep silence. Problem is that a lot of these ordained servants don't now anything. Solution: Stop ordaining servants who don't know anything!
ReturnOrthodoxy
I know you tend see things from a different perspective (a Deacon's perspective), but regarding my previous post about girls chanting/leading in hymns, do you think it's better if the responses are skipped than for the girls to sing alone? I know you indirectly answered my post in your reply, but which of the two options do you think is more appropriate?
imikhail and ophadece already answered me, but since you're already posting here... ;D
PS: Girls are not innocent; don't be easy on us. We're the ones in the back of the church complimenting/insulting the boys on their rock concert performance. Only priests are innocent.
I do lead, at times.
I do teach, at times.
I do mentor, rarely.
Correction: your posts on tasbeha is a form of mentoring.
I know you tend see things from a different perspective (a Deacon's perspective), but regarding my previous post about girls chanting/leading in hymns, do you think it's better if the responses are skipped than for the girls to sing alone? I know you indirectly answered my post in your reply, but which of the two options do you think is more appropriate?
I know this was directed at ILSM, but this question is just ridiculous.
The reason I'm asking is because imikhail's (and ophadece's) opinion is at variance with what I believe, and I'd like to be corrected.