Epiphany

Unknown

Happy Feast to all!

A question:

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”

(John 1: 29-34) [Emphasis mine]

How can John say, "I did not know him"? They were second cousins, and when St. Mary met St. Elizabeth, John leaped in the womb. He must have know him. How then can he say, "I myself did not know him."?

Secondly, John says that he knew who it is that would baptize by Spirit by seeing the Holy Spirit descend on the person. However, he called Christ the lamb of God as Christ was coming toward him (ie. before baptizing him.) This would imply that the dove came before the Baptism. This however is inconsistent with the gospel of Matthew.

As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on Him.

(Matthew 3:16)

So whats up with this? How can the two be reconciled? Thanks

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Timothym

According to one (non-Orthodox) source, this is interpreted as that John probably didn't know that Jesus was the Messiah until he saw the sign mentioned in verses 32-33.

Although your point about their earlier in-womb meeting is valid. I wish I can get my hands on a set of Ancient Christian Commentary. I'll try to find what the fathers say online..if anyone else knows feel free to fill us in.

Amoussa01

Here is what St. John Chrysostom says:

"Here he renders his testimony free from suspicion, by showing that it was not from human friendship, but had been caused by divine revelation. '"I knew Him not,'" he saith. How then couldest though be a trustworthy witness? How shalt thou teach others, while thou thyself art ignorant? He did not say "I know Him not," but "I knew Him not"'; so that in this way he would be shown most trustworthy; for why should he have shown favor to one of whom he was ignorant?

God bless

peterfarrington

The Gospel of St Matthew seems to be speaking about the vision of the descent of the Holy Spirit from the point of view of Christ Himself. While the Gospel of St John is speaking from the point of view of St John the Baptist.

I think that the exclamation - Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world - should be understood prophetically and not as something resulting from the confirmation of the descent of the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove which appears at the baptism.

St John the Baptist had some prophetic sense of who Christ was, and yet did not see all things clearly. It seems to me that when he cries out it is as a prophet, just as the Spirit had moved him in his mother's womb. The promise of the decent of the Spirit as a dove would seem to me to have been given to him as a confirmation. But if he is the greatest of prophets and the herald of the Lord then surely we should expect that he would be moved by the Spirit himself?

The Fathers say that 'He did not know him' means that it was not by any human knowledge that he knew the Christ, and we can understand that although Jesus the Christ was always special, nevertheless that would not mean that those around him always or ever had a complete sense of who he was or would become.

Unknown

Thank you very much Tim, AMoussa and Father Peter. Also, thank you Fr. Peter for getting rid of a certain thread. I still would like to know at which point the dove appeared over Christ as the Godpel writers seem to disagree in this.

Thanks

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imikhail

the Godpel writers seem to disagree in this

The Gospel writers would never disagree on anything. If it seems that way then is due to  our own lack of understanding.

The Spirit was one that worked through the writers, the message is one which they wrote about, and the person was the Son whom they wrote about.

peterfarrington

I think the dove appeared as Christ was coming out of the waters.

This is what is described in the Gospel of St John and implied in the Gospel of St Matthew.