I came across this picture of St. Mary's feast in Assuit in her monastery in Dronka (http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRw8Sf6Cn1RR8Ja_SvXlrtg2qXbnNteSVsIhcpGWkxkoH_rAwkL6g). It is interesting how all of the Decons (For real this time, like Coptic Diacons) wear their badrashal. No matter how old they are. They all wear their badrashal as if they are diacons. What do you guys think of this?
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12830.msg150851#msg150851 date=1327093192] I came across this picture of St. Mary's feast in Assuit in her monastery in Dronka (http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRw8Sf6Cn1RR8Ja_SvXlrtg2qXbnNteSVsIhcpGWkxkoH_rAwkL6g). It is interesting how all of the Decons (For real this time, like Coptic Diacons) wear their badrashal. No matter how old they are. They all wear their badrashal as if they are diacons. What do you guys think of this?
many people do that to just match. It's not something to be proud of, but it happens.
You have to put it into perspective. They are trying to make a statement as they march out into the neighborhood, which for all intensive purposes is HOSTILE towards them as a people and a religion.
Assiut, used to be a province of Christian majority (the only one I might add). It is also a hot bed of temper and emotion.
It's okay, I think. Unless their Abouna says something, then it's wrong. Otherwise I don't think it's much of a big deal, really. I don't think it says anything about how to wear a badrashal in the Bible :) I think God would look at the heart of a Deacon first before his badrashal and if he wears his badrashal over his heart outside and inside his Church :)
Rony are you Coptic? because you certinaly donot sound like one. We, as a coptic church, believe in the bible but there is also traditions that was passed down that we follow. If we are going to say that it doesnot say so and so in the bible, then where in the bible does tell us that we should have 3 hours liturgy?
[quote author=Rony link=topic=12830.msg150865#msg150865 date=1327114410] It's okay, I think. Unless their Abouna says something, then it's wrong. Otherwise I don't think it's much of a big deal, really. I don't think it says anything about how to wear a badrashal in the Bible :) I think God would look at the heart of a Deacon first before his badrashal and if he wears his badrashal over his heart outside and inside his Church :)
This is actually the typical Coptic response. Coptic people love to excuse everything on "the heart." Ya harram a3lal 2alb! And it matters because all of these people are dressed as deacons when they are nothing more than psaltos and readers. Can you go and wear abouna's sedreya and 3emma just to help abouna one day with communion? I didn't think so.
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12830.msg150870#msg150870 date=1327119987] I actually tried walking with them once when I was there..They kicked me out because I didn't match with everyone else. lol
Yeah, I know they are so strict about what seems to me like flawed traditions... [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12830.msg150876#msg150876 date=1327130802] [quote author=Rony link=topic=12830.msg150865#msg150865 date=1327114410] It's okay, I think. Unless their Abouna says something, then it's wrong. Otherwise I don't think it's much of a big deal, really. I don't think it says anything about how to wear a badrashal in the Bible :) I think God would look at the heart of a Deacon first before his badrashal and if he wears his badrashal over his heart outside and inside his Church :)
This is actually the typical Coptic response. Coptic people love to excuse everything on "the heart." Ya harram a3lal 2alb! And it matters because all of these people are dressed as deacons when they are nothing more than psaltos and readers. Can you go and wear abouna's sedreya and 3emma just to help abouna one day with communion? I didn't think so.
True that! I am afraid we are moving from the church that has been protecting the faith for many year to an everything is ok church...
Wow. Forgive my ignorance brothers; I am not trying to start an argument. But here is my reasoning for what I said.
Yes, I am Coptic. Yes I believe in Church traditions. I was simply stating that if the badrashal is worn incorrectly God is not going to hold it against you. You won't fall from grace just because you are wearing your badrashal in the same manner as all the other Deacons. You could fall from grace if you act like a Deacon at church, and for the rest of the week you act like a man of the world.
This is the point I was trying to make in that what is important to God is not how you wear your badrashal, but how you carry yourself as a deacon throughout the week while privileged to even be called a Deacon. And yes, it is not a right to be a Deacon, it is a privilege, bestowed to us by a calling from God.
[quote author=Rony link=topic=12830.msg150968#msg150968 date=1327343925] Wow. Forgive my ignorance brothers; I am not trying to start an argument. But here is my reasoning for what I said.
Yes, I am Coptic. Yes I believe in Church traditions. I was simply stating that if the badrashal is worn incorrectly God is not going to hold it against you. You won't fall from grace just because you are wearing your badrashal in the same manner as all the other Deacons. You could fall from grace if you act like a Deacon at church, and for the rest of the week you act like a man of the world.
it is not about doing something wrong once, twice or even three times. it's about the person knowing that it is not right and CONTINUES to do it.
Something else i have, if we, as deacons of different ranks, can't follow the SIMPLEST of rites and rules, how can we follow the harder ones. in other words, if we cannot be trusted with the little matters, how can we be trusted with the major ones.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12830.msg150969#msg150969 date=1327345210] [quote author=Rony link=topic=12830.msg150968#msg150968 date=1327343925] Wow. Forgive my ignorance brothers; I am not trying to start an argument. But here is my reasoning for what I said.
Yes, I am Coptic. Yes I believe in Church traditions. I was simply stating that if the badrashal is worn incorrectly God is not going to hold it against you. You won't fall from grace just because you are wearing your badrashal in the same manner as all the other Deacons. You could fall from grace if you act like a Deacon at church, and for the rest of the week you act like a man of the world.
it is not about doing something wrong once, twice or even three times. it's about the person knowing that it is not right and CONTINUES to do it.
Something else i have, if we, as deacons of different ranks, can't follow the SIMPLEST of rites and rules, how can we follow the harder ones. in other words, if we cannot be trusted with the little matters, how can we be trusted with the major ones.
Agreed. Also, I heard that all of them no matter what are ordained as Oghnostoses right away. They also say Ebi Eshlel Ten theno instead of ebi ebros efkes tasete. What are you guys' opinions on those two issues?
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12830.msg150978#msg150978 date=1327353956] They also say Ebi Eshlel Ten theno instead of ebi ebros efkes tasete. What are you guys' opinions on those two issues?
NICEEEEEE........those are the coptic response to all the greek responses we have. anything with "epros" is really greek.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150982#msg150982 date=1327358087] I will reserve my judgement on that one.. interested to hear other people's ideas first... Oujai
Not disrespecting anybody else knowledge but I wrote my comment waiting for remenkimi and your comment. As of my opinion, I thought ebi eshelel ten theno makes more sense but I am still waiting on you guys' comments... Also worth of notice is Metropolitan Mikhael is the only Bishop/Metropolitan alive that was ordained by Pope Cyril the sixth. It is interesting how churches under his authority has some significant difference in their ritual. Pretty interesting, eh?
Thanks for your expectation of me dear Copticandproud... if only you know who you're talking to! Anyway, I am biased towards my Coptic language rather than the Greek one.. it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros? Oujai
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150997#msg150997 date=1327391009] Thanks for your expectation of me dear Copticandproud... if only you know who you're talking to! Anyway, I am biased towards my Coptic language rather than the Greek one.. it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros? Oujai
please back-up your statements here......the liturgies were written in Greek than translated into Coptic and than arabic. as for the deacons parts, they were not even there in the liturgy. you can see that in other traditions on our liturgies (atleast Satin Basil's) in different apostolic churches. the eprosat were added to the liturgies.
Thanks Mina. I meant what you wrote in the first half of your post. As for the ebrosat having been added at a later stage, I wasn't aware, so thanks for enlightening me with that. Oujai qen `P[C
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg151003#msg151003 date=1327401842] Thanks Mina. I meant what you wrote in the first half of your post. As for the ebrosat having been added at a later stage, I wasn't aware, so thanks for enlightening me with that. Oujai qen `P[C
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150997#msg150997 date=1327391009] Thanks for your expectation of me dear Copticandproud... if only you know who you're talking to! Anyway, I am biased towards my Coptic language rather than the Greek one.. it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros? Oujai
Haha! You are funny... correct me if I am wrong but to my knowledge the attempt of reuniting the churches didnot succed then why still pray ebros? Also it is funny how their deacon's response in the thanksgiving prayer is brosefksaste not eshlil.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12830.msg151001#msg151001 date=1327396578] [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150997#msg150997 date=1327391009] Thanks for your expectation of me dear Copticandproud... if only you know who you're talking to! Anyway, I am biased towards my Coptic language rather than the Greek one.. it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros? Oujai
please back-up your statements here......the liturgies were written in Greek than translated into Coptic and than arabic. as for the deacons parts, they were not even there in the liturgy. you can see that in other traditions on our liturgies (atleast Satin Basil's) in different apostolic churches. the eprosat were added to the liturgies.
I am assuming that they added the priest's part (eshlil) and the deacon's part (ebros) at the same time. Then why would they be in two different languages doesnot it make sense that they both be consistant?
Something else that I just remembered, in the litany of the fathers they donot pray for Abouna Antonouis or Mar Ighnatious. Does anybody else think that there is something behind these differences?
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12830.msg151021#msg151021 date=1327440309] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12830.msg151001#msg151001 date=1327396578] [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150997#msg150997 date=1327391009] Thanks for your expectation of me dear Copticandproud... if only you know who you're talking to! Anyway, I am biased towards my Coptic language rather than the Greek one.. it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros? Oujai
please back-up your statements here......the liturgies were written in Greek than translated into Coptic and than arabic. as for the deacons parts, they were not even there in the liturgy. you can see that in other traditions on our liturgies (atleast Satin Basil's) in different apostolic churches. the eprosat were added to the liturgies.
I am assuming that they added the priest's part (eshlil) and the deacon's part (ebros) at the same time. Then why would they be in two different languages doesnot it make sense that they both be consistant?
listen to the link i posted for ohadece. there is an english one.
Something else that I just remembered, in the litany of the fathers they donot pray for Abouna Antonouis or Mar Ighnatious. Does anybody else think that there is something behind these differences?
these were added recently (going as far as 40 yrs ago...imikhail or remenkimi can confirm). IN FACT, now there is another one to add, Abouna Paulos Patriarch of Ethiopia. I have heard that in this years Nativity liturgy from the cathedral. I believe that these are simply declarations of unity between the churches....
these were added recently (going as far as 40 yrs ago...imikhail or remenkimi can confirm). IN FACT, now there is another one to add, Abouna Paulos Patriarch of Ethiopia. I have heard that in this years Nativity liturgy from the cathedral. I believe that these are simply declarations of unity between the churches....
Still donot you think it is weird that in Metropolian Mikhalil's churches they still pray ebieshlil instead of ebros (which was put to establish unification with the Greek church) and they donot pray for the other Patriarchs. I may be jumping to conclusions but is that a passive way of him saying that he doesnot accept the unification of the churches?
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12830.msg151024#msg151024 date=1327442381] [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12830.msg151021#msg151021 date=1327440309] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12830.msg151001#msg151001 date=1327396578] [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150997#msg150997 date=1327391009] Thanks for your expectation of me dear Copticandproud... if only you know who you're talking to! Anyway, I am biased towards my Coptic language rather than the Greek one.. it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros? Oujai
please back-up your statements here......the liturgies were written in Greek than translated into Coptic and than arabic. as for the deacons parts, they were not even there in the liturgy. you can see that in other traditions on our liturgies (atleast Satin Basil's) in different apostolic churches. the eprosat were added to the liturgies.
I am assuming that they added the priest's part (eshlil) and the deacon's part (ebros) at the same time. Then why would they be in two different languages doesnot it make sense that they both be consistant?
listen to the link i posted for ohadece. there is an english one.
Please forgive my ignorance but I am still confused so they first added eshlil and ebi eshlil and then changed ebi eshlil to ebi ebros later?
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12830.msg151025#msg151025 date=1327443131] Still donot you think it is weird that in Metropolian Mikhalil's churches they still pray ebieshlil instead of ebros (which was put to establish unification with the Greek church) and they donot pray for the other Patriarchs. I may be jumping to conclusions but is that a passive way of him saying that he doesnot accept the unification of the churches?
the eprosat were not added for unification with anyone......they were just added for deacons to sing, IN GREEK. their origin is greek, not coptic. what some people did is translate those into coptic and used them. it's that simple. not including the patriarch is not a big deal......we don't generally say them at all, we including include the pope in our church (St Mark's JC, NJ).
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150997#msg150997 date=1327391009] it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros? Oujai
Well you seem to disagree with what ophadece said...
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12830.msg151028#msg151028 date=1327444442] [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150997#msg150997 date=1327391009] it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros? Oujai
Well you seem to disagree with what ophadece said...
and he then agreed with me.....read the last couple of posts carefully.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12830.msg151029#msg151029 date=1327444994] [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12830.msg151028#msg151028 date=1327444442] [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150997#msg150997 date=1327391009] it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros? Oujai
Well you seem to disagree with what ophadece said...
and he then agreed with me.....read the last couple of posts carefully.
Oh I apologize... So to make sure I got that right (correct me if I am wrong) St. Basil Liturgy was written by St. Mark in Greek? and then recorded and written by St. Basil. After St. Basil recorded it the deacons' parts were added and then the whole thing was translated to Coptic. Right?
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12830.msg151030#msg151030 date=1327445285] Oh I apologize... So to make sure I got that right (correct me if I am wrong) St. Basil Liturgy was written by St. Mark in Greek? and then recorded and written by St. Basil. After St. Basil recorded it the deacons' parts were added and then the whole thing was translated to Coptic. Right?
you are confusing everything. forget recordings......we are talking about written text. St. Basil Liturgy was written by St. Mark. What we are concluding is that the liturgies were written in Greek by saints who were accepted in all the church, while there was one holy universal Church before any schism. Than they were translated in the native language of every church. so when Egypt took coptic as it's first language, the liturgy was translated in coptic.....the arabic as egypt took arabic as it's first language.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12830.msg151033#msg151033 date=1327446185] ok so when exactly were the deacon parts added?
some of them were added by m.mikhail......i am not sure about others. imikhail can maybe provide us with more info since he has access to many old copies of books.
Comments
I came across this picture of St. Mary's feast in Assuit in her monastery in Dronka (http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRw8Sf6Cn1RR8Ja_SvXlrtg2qXbnNteSVsIhcpGWkxkoH_rAwkL6g). It is interesting how all of the Decons (For real this time, like Coptic Diacons) wear their badrashal. No matter how old they are. They all wear their badrashal as if they are diacons. What do you guys think of this?
many people do that to just match. It's not something to be proud of, but it happens.
Assiut, used to be a province of Christian majority (the only one I might add). It is also a hot bed of temper and emotion.
It's okay, I think. Unless their Abouna says something, then it's wrong. Otherwise I don't think it's much of a big deal, really. I don't think it says anything about how to wear a badrashal in the Bible :) I think God would look at the heart of a Deacon first before his badrashal and if he wears his badrashal over his heart outside and inside his Church :)
This is actually the typical Coptic response. Coptic people love to excuse everything on "the heart." Ya harram a3lal 2alb! And it matters because all of these people are dressed as deacons when they are nothing more than psaltos and readers. Can you go and wear abouna's sedreya and 3emma just to help abouna one day with communion? I didn't think so.
I actually tried walking with them once when I was there..They kicked me out because I didn't match with everyone else. lol
Yeah, I know they are so strict about what seems to me like flawed traditions...
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12830.msg150876#msg150876 date=1327130802]
[quote author=Rony link=topic=12830.msg150865#msg150865 date=1327114410]
It's okay, I think. Unless their Abouna says something, then it's wrong. Otherwise I don't think it's much of a big deal, really. I don't think it says anything about how to wear a badrashal in the Bible :) I think God would look at the heart of a Deacon first before his badrashal and if he wears his badrashal over his heart outside and inside his Church :)
This is actually the typical Coptic response. Coptic people love to excuse everything on "the heart." Ya harram a3lal 2alb! And it matters because all of these people are dressed as deacons when they are nothing more than psaltos and readers. Can you go and wear abouna's sedreya and 3emma just to help abouna one day with communion? I didn't think so.
True that! I am afraid we are moving from the church that has been protecting the faith for many year to an everything is ok church...
Yes, I am Coptic. Yes I believe in Church traditions. I was simply stating that if the badrashal is worn incorrectly God is not going to hold it against you. You won't fall from grace just because you are wearing your badrashal in the same manner as all the other Deacons. You could fall from grace if you act like a Deacon at church, and for the rest of the week you act like a man of the world.
This is the point I was trying to make in that what is important to God is not how you wear your badrashal, but how you carry yourself as a deacon throughout the week while privileged to even be called a Deacon. And yes, it is not a right to be a Deacon, it is a privilege, bestowed to us by a calling from God.
Wow. Forgive my ignorance brothers; I am not trying to start an argument. But here is my reasoning for what I said.
Yes, I am Coptic. Yes I believe in Church traditions. I was simply stating that if the badrashal is worn incorrectly God is not going to hold it against you. You won't fall from grace just because you are wearing your badrashal in the same manner as all the other Deacons. You could fall from grace if you act like a Deacon at church, and for the rest of the week you act like a man of the world.
it is not about doing something wrong once, twice or even three times. it's about the person knowing that it is not right and CONTINUES to do it.
Something else i have, if we, as deacons of different ranks, can't follow the SIMPLEST of rites and rules, how can we follow the harder ones. in other words, if we cannot be trusted with the little matters, how can we be trusted with the major ones.
[quote author=Rony link=topic=12830.msg150968#msg150968 date=1327343925]
Wow. Forgive my ignorance brothers; I am not trying to start an argument. But here is my reasoning for what I said.
Yes, I am Coptic. Yes I believe in Church traditions. I was simply stating that if the badrashal is worn incorrectly God is not going to hold it against you. You won't fall from grace just because you are wearing your badrashal in the same manner as all the other Deacons. You could fall from grace if you act like a Deacon at church, and for the rest of the week you act like a man of the world.
it is not about doing something wrong once, twice or even three times. it's about the person knowing that it is not right and CONTINUES to do it.
Something else i have, if we, as deacons of different ranks, can't follow the SIMPLEST of rites and rules, how can we follow the harder ones. in other words, if we cannot be trusted with the little matters, how can we be trusted with the major ones.
Agreed. Also, I heard that all of them no matter what are ordained as Oghnostoses right away. They also say Ebi Eshlel Ten theno instead of ebi ebros efkes tasete. What are you guys' opinions on those two issues?
They also say Ebi Eshlel Ten theno instead of ebi ebros efkes tasete. What are you guys' opinions on those two issues?
NICEEEEEE........those are the coptic response to all the greek responses we have. anything with "epros" is really greek.
Oujai
I will reserve my judgement on that one.. interested to hear other people's ideas first...
Oujai
Not disrespecting anybody else knowledge but I wrote my comment waiting for remenkimi and your comment. As of my opinion, I thought ebi eshelel ten theno makes more sense but I am still waiting on you guys' comments... Also worth of notice is Metropolitan Mikhael is the only Bishop/Metropolitan alive that was ordained by Pope Cyril the sixth. It is interesting how churches under his authority has some significant difference in their ritual. Pretty interesting, eh?
Anyway, I am biased towards my Coptic language rather than the Greek one.. it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros?
Oujai
Thanks for your expectation of me dear Copticandproud... if only you know who you're talking to!
Anyway, I am biased towards my Coptic language rather than the Greek one.. it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros?
Oujai
please back-up your statements here......the liturgies were written in Greek than translated into Coptic and than arabic. as for the deacons parts, they were not even there in the liturgy. you can see that in other traditions on our liturgies (atleast Satin Basil's) in different apostolic churches. the eprosat were added to the liturgies.
Oujai qen `P[C
Thanks Mina. I meant what you wrote in the first half of your post. As for the ebrosat having been added at a later stage, I wasn't aware, so thanks for enlightening me with that.
Oujai qen `P[C
listen to into here: http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Divine_Liturgies/Higher_Institute_of_Coptic_Studies,_Liturgy_of_St._Cyril_in_Coptic.html
Thanks for your expectation of me dear Copticandproud... if only you know who you're talking to!
Anyway, I am biased towards my Coptic language rather than the Greek one.. it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros?
Oujai
Haha! You are funny... correct me if I am wrong but to my knowledge the attempt of reuniting the churches didnot succed then why still pray ebros? Also it is funny how their deacon's response in the thanksgiving prayer is brosefksaste not eshlil.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12830.msg151001#msg151001 date=1327396578]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150997#msg150997 date=1327391009]
Thanks for your expectation of me dear Copticandproud... if only you know who you're talking to!
Anyway, I am biased towards my Coptic language rather than the Greek one.. it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros?
Oujai
please back-up your statements here......the liturgies were written in Greek than translated into Coptic and than arabic. as for the deacons parts, they were not even there in the liturgy. you can see that in other traditions on our liturgies (atleast Satin Basil's) in different apostolic churches. the eprosat were added to the liturgies.
I am assuming that they added the priest's part (eshlil) and the deacon's part (ebros) at the same time. Then why would they be in two different languages doesnot it make sense that they both be consistant?
Something else that I just remembered, in the litany of the fathers they donot pray for Abouna Antonouis or Mar Ighnatious. Does anybody else think that there is something behind these differences?
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12830.msg151001#msg151001 date=1327396578]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150997#msg150997 date=1327391009]
Thanks for your expectation of me dear Copticandproud... if only you know who you're talking to!
Anyway, I am biased towards my Coptic language rather than the Greek one.. it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros?
Oujai
please back-up your statements here......the liturgies were written in Greek than translated into Coptic and than arabic. as for the deacons parts, they were not even there in the liturgy. you can see that in other traditions on our liturgies (atleast Satin Basil's) in different apostolic churches. the eprosat were added to the liturgies.
I am assuming that they added the priest's part (eshlil) and the deacon's part (ebros) at the same time. Then why would they be in two different languages doesnot it make sense that they both be consistant?
listen to the link i posted for ohadece. there is an english one. these were added recently (going as far as 40 yrs ago...imikhail or remenkimi can confirm). IN FACT, now there is another one to add, Abouna Paulos Patriarch of Ethiopia. I have heard that in this years Nativity liturgy from the cathedral.
I believe that these are simply declarations of unity between the churches....
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12830.msg151021#msg151021 date=1327440309]
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12830.msg151001#msg151001 date=1327396578]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150997#msg150997 date=1327391009]
Thanks for your expectation of me dear Copticandproud... if only you know who you're talking to!
Anyway, I am biased towards my Coptic language rather than the Greek one.. it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros?
Oujai
please back-up your statements here......the liturgies were written in Greek than translated into Coptic and than arabic. as for the deacons parts, they were not even there in the liturgy. you can see that in other traditions on our liturgies (atleast Satin Basil's) in different apostolic churches. the eprosat were added to the liturgies.
I am assuming that they added the priest's part (eshlil) and the deacon's part (ebros) at the same time. Then why would they be in two different languages doesnot it make sense that they both be consistant?
listen to the link i posted for ohadece. there is an english one.
Please forgive my ignorance but I am still confused so they first added eshlil and ebi eshlil and then changed ebi eshlil to ebi ebros later?
Still donot you think it is weird that in Metropolian Mikhalil's churches they still pray ebieshlil instead of ebros (which was put to establish unification with the Greek church) and they donot pray for the other Patriarchs. I may be jumping to conclusions but is that a passive way of him saying that he doesnot accept the unification of the churches?
the eprosat were not added for unification with anyone......they were just added for deacons to sing, IN GREEK. their origin is greek, not coptic. what some people did is translate those into coptic and used them. it's that simple.
not including the patriarch is not a big deal......we don't generally say them at all, we including include the pope in our church (St Mark's JC, NJ).
it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros?
Oujai
Well you seem to disagree with what ophadece said...
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150997#msg150997 date=1327391009]
it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros?
Oujai
Well you seem to disagree with what ophadece said...
and he then agreed with me.....read the last couple of posts carefully.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12830.msg151028#msg151028 date=1327444442]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12830.msg150997#msg150997 date=1327391009]
it has to be said the after ages of praying the liturgies in sole Coptic, deacon parts were translated back to Greek in the attempt of reuniting both churches... so my opinion is: why not? Why not say ebishlil rather than ebibros?
Oujai
Well you seem to disagree with what ophadece said...
and he then agreed with me.....read the last couple of posts carefully.
Oh I apologize... So to make sure I got that right (correct me if I am wrong) St. Basil Liturgy was written by St. Mark in Greek? and then recorded and written by St. Basil. After St. Basil recorded it the deacons' parts were added and then the whole thing was translated to Coptic. Right?
Oh I apologize... So to make sure I got that right (correct me if I am wrong) St. Basil Liturgy was written by St. Mark in Greek? and then recorded and written by St. Basil. After St. Basil recorded it the deacons' parts were added and then the whole thing was translated to Coptic. Right?
you are confusing everything. forget recordings......we are talking about written text. St. Basil Liturgy was written by St. Mark. What we are concluding is that the liturgies were written in Greek by saints who were accepted in all the church, while there was one holy universal Church before any schism. Than they were translated in the native language of every church. so when Egypt took coptic as it's first language, the liturgy was translated in coptic.....the arabic as egypt took arabic as it's first language.
ok so when exactly were the deacon parts added?
some of them were added by m.mikhail......i am not sure about others. imikhail can maybe provide us with more info since he has access to many old copies of books.