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Omonogenes Hymn Question
Hi all,
In the hymn of Omonogenes, do we say GE-GONOS, or GE-GHONOS. The coptic text shows Gamma followed by an O. In this case it should be GE-GHONOS. Cantor ibrahim says GE-GONOS, whilst Cantor Farag says it GE-GHONOS. Anyone knows what is the right pronounciation? is to do with differences between Latin & Coptic?
thanks
In the hymn of Omonogenes, do we say GE-GONOS, or GE-GHONOS. The coptic text shows Gamma followed by an O. In this case it should be GE-GHONOS. Cantor ibrahim says GE-GONOS, whilst Cantor Farag says it GE-GHONOS. Anyone knows what is the right pronounciation? is to do with differences between Latin & Coptic?
thanks
Comments
Hi all,
In the hymn of Omonogenes, do we say GE-GONOS, or GE-GHONOS. The coptic text shows Gamma followed by an O. In this case it should be GE-GHONOS. Cantor ibrahim says GE-GONOS, whilst Cantor Farag says it GE-GHONOS. Anyone knows what is the right pronounciation? is to do with differences between Latin & Coptic?
thanks
Omonogenis is entirely Greek. There is no 'gh' sound in greek. so it is ge-gonos.
[quote author=baladoos link=topic=12861.msg151248#msg151248 date=1327967349]
Hi all,
In the hymn of Omonogenes, do we say GE-GONOS, or GE-GHONOS. The coptic text shows Gamma followed by an O. In this case it should be GE-GHONOS. Cantor ibrahim says GE-GONOS, whilst Cantor Farag says it GE-GHONOS. Anyone knows what is the right pronounciation? is to do with differences between Latin & Coptic?
thanks
Omonogenis is entirely Greek. There is no 'gh' sound in greek. so it is ge-gonos.
actually the gamma (
There are few exceptions. One recognizable in Coptic is Angelos (which is spelled Aggelos...when theres 2 gammas, the 1st is pronounced as 'n'). The word hug in Greek is Angalia but it is spelled Aggalia.
well, I speak Greek (not perfect at all) but still, ever since I was young in school, we were always taught that this is so...and plus you can hear it when people speak; whether in ecclesiastical Greek or the common day-to-day Greek.
There are few exceptions. One recognizable in Coptic is Angelos (which is spelled Aggelos...when theres 2 gammas, the 1st is pronounced as 'n'). The word hug in Greek is Angalia but it is spelled Aggalia.
the words you provided are not exceptions....they are part of the rule that if you have to gammas following each other, the first becomes an 'n' and the second a 'g'...........i searched some sites on google and most have these two rules, the one i just gave and the other is that it is always a 'g' and never a 'gh'......this is specific to ancient greek.
Maybe someone else can shed some light with a written source please....
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12861.msg151254#msg151254 date=1327972804]
well, I speak Greek (not perfect at all) but still, ever since I was young in school, we were always taught that this is so...and plus you can hear it when people speak; whether in ecclesiastical Greek or the common day-to-day Greek.
There are few exceptions. One recognizable in Coptic is Angelos (which is spelled Aggelos...when theres 2 gammas, the 1st is pronounced as 'n'). The word hug in Greek is Angalia but it is spelled Aggalia.
the words you provided are not exceptions....they are part of the rule that if you have to gammas following each other, the first becomes an 'n' and the second a 'g'...........i searched some sites on google and most have these two rules, the one i just gave and the other is that it is always a 'g' and never a 'gh'......this is specific to ancient greek.
Maybe someone else can shed some light with a written source please....
Minatasgeel, I tried to upload photos on here I just took from my Greek language textbooks. The 3 pages from the 3 different textbooks all confirm that the pronunciation of ghamma is only hard when it is followed by a kappa. This is often the case with foreign import words (ex. fr. gateau would become γκατό). I realize that the 2 gammas referring to the previous post is part of the rule..but I was saying that this is an exception to the pronunciation as a ghamma.
This is exactly what one textbook before me says: "before the vowels α,ο it is pronounced as g (αγγούρι, ago'ouri). Before the vowles ε,ι it is pronounced as ng ('αγγελος a'nguelos). At the beginning of the word it is pronounced as g (γκάζι, ga'zi). In the middle of the word it is pronounced as ng (αγγαλιά, angalia). "
Otherwise, the ghamma by itself is always pronounced as in the arabic ghayn (غ). Please note that the little markings above the greek words are not equivalent to the Coptic jenkems but are rather stress marks ie. the word angel above is pronounced as ANghelos rather than anghElos like we say in Coptic/Arabic.
Ya ragel, trust me, I lived with Greek fobs for 3 years in res and I grew up with them and even went to learn it as a kid...along with arabic school. Talk about confusion lol.
This question hopefully make you think about the argument that any Greek hymn or Greek words must be pronounced like Greek.
Oujai qen `P[C
Can you please clarify something? In the three textbooks you mentioned that confirm a uvular fricative "gh", were these textbooks describing standard Modern (Demotic) Greek, ancient Greek (whether Doric, Achean, Ionic, Attic, Arcadian, Cypriot), Koine, Katharevousa (post-1850 Ancient Greek) or a specific variety of Modern Greek?
In this list, Ancient Greek pronounced the gamma as /g/ not /gh/ while Modern Greek has /g/ /gh/ and /y/.
All the recordings of the Trisagion (Greek versions) all say /ayios/ and /agios/ but never /aghios/. It obvious that Modern Greek use the voice frictive /ayios/ while Ancient Greek use /agios/. It seems this example would contradict these textbooks. These textbooks seem to describe Modern Greek, not Ancient Greek.
I won't reply about Greek phonology in Coptic, even though I do know the anwser grammatically.
In this list, Ancient Greek pronounced the gamma as /g/ not /gh/ while Modern Greek has /g/ /gh/ and /y/.
All the recordings of the Trisagion (Greek versions) all say /ayios/ and /agios/ but never /aghios/. It obvious that Modern Greek use the voice frictive /ayios/ while Ancient Greek use /agios/. It seems this example would contradict these textbooks. These textbooks seem to describe Modern Greek, not Ancient Greek.
YESSS.....so i wasn't the only one skeptic about this.
I guess baladoos is not interested in languages: just hymns.
Is it really necessary to question balados interests or intentions in his question? He asked a question. You don't have to interrogate or adjudicate his intentions, at least what you consider secondary intentions.
Oujai qen `P[C
I think it might be worth getting a subforum dedicated purely to "GB vs. OB" discussions for imikhail, ophadece and Remenkimi.
or we can just stop talking about it since nothing will ever result from those debates. GB will not prove OB wrong and vice-verse SPECIALLY on this forum that doesn't speak for the entire Church, and it will never do so (no matter what qawe keeps saying). In the same time, it doesn't matter how many people 'confess' to OB; the Church will never change all of it current text to it. it is that simple...........now i am sure imikhail and ophadece will not be happy with what i just said and will continue arguing......but i won't argue because i'd rather accept reality, do my best to get to heaven, die, and hope to be there.
[quote author=JG link=topic=12861.msg151314#msg151314 date=1328050987]
I think it might be worth getting a subforum dedicated purely to "GB vs. OB" discussions for imikhail, ophadece and Remenkimi.
or we can just stop talking about it since nothing will ever result from those debates. GB will not prove OB wrong and vice-verse SPECIALLY on this forum that doesn't speak for the entire Church, and it will never do so (no matter what qawe keeps saying). In the same time, it doesn't matter how many people 'confess' to OB; the Church will never change all of it current text to it. it is that simple...........now i am sure imikhail and ophadece will not be happy with what i just said and will continue arguing......but i won't argue because i'd rather accept reality, do my best to get to heaven, die, and hope to be there.
Is the Church reduced to opinions enforced by some famous characters. .. and their only argument is their political clout?
Since Aryan Afandi's invention, words keep changing and the change is accepted for two reasons: The person advocating the change is well known, the second reason is because 99.99% of the Copts do not care.
the second reason is because 99.99% of the Copts do not care.
and what makes you think that you can change that percentage in today's age?!
Timothym,
Can you please clarify something? In the three textbooks you mentioned that confirm a uvular fricative "gh", were these textbooks describing standard Modern (Demotic) Greek, ancient Greek (whether Doric, Achean, Ionic, Attic, Arcadian, Cypriot), Koine, Katharevousa (post-1850 Ancient Greek) or a specific variety of Modern Greek?
In this list, Ancient Greek pronounced the gamma as /g/ not /gh/ while Modern Greek has /g/ /gh/ and /y/.
All the recordings of the Trisagion (Greek versions) all say /ayios/ and /agios/ but never /aghios/. It obvious that Modern Greek use the voice frictive /ayios/ while Ancient Greek use /agios/. It seems this example would contradict these textbooks. These textbooks seem to describe Modern Greek, not Ancient Greek.
I won't reply about Greek phonology in Coptic, even though I do know the anwser grammatically.
The 'y' is the same pronunciation as the 'gh' that I am speaking about...it isn't quite a 'gh' as in french or even the arabic ghayn but its like a cross between a y and gh...hard to explain. The text books I have were describing Modern Greek pronunciation not ancient. Although I have an ancient Greek text book I knew not to use it because they use the reconstructed Greek pronunciation which is apparently not the true pronunciation. Coptic spelling of Greek words can attest to this but this is a completely different subject: i.e. the word 'kai' (and) pronounced as 'ka-ee" rather than "kay"...Coptic mispelling in documents as 'ke' rather than kappa alfa iota (kai).
Oujai
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12861.msg151318#msg151318 date=1328053834]
the second reason is because 99.99% of the Copts do not care.
and what makes you think that you can change that percentage in today's age?!
Through setting an example .. through winning one person at a time.
I think it might be worth getting a subforum dedicated purely to "GB vs. OB" discussions for imikhail, ophadece and Remenkimi.
Believe it or not, I don't care for one dialect over the other. I actually pray in both varieties. I am only vocal about GB because proponents of OB on this forum continue to justify their animosity of GB with opinions and pass it off as fact. I am only interested in separating fact vs. opinion, logical debate vs. unsubstantiated claims, Coptic language edification and "building" vs. divisions and partisan rhetoric. I would actually be offended if we would have a forum dedicated to dividing Coptic into polar enemies.
[quote author=JG link=topic=12861.msg151314#msg151314 date=1328050987]
I think it might be worth getting a subforum dedicated purely to "GB vs. OB" discussions for imikhail, ophadece and Remenkimi.
Believe it or not, I don't care for one dialect over the other. I actually pray in both varieties. I am only vocal about GB because proponents of OB on this forum continue to justify their animosity of GB with opinions and pass it off as fact. I am only interested in separating fact vs. opinion, logical debate vs. unsubstantiated claims, Coptic language edification and "building" vs. divisions and partisan rhetoric. I would actually be offended if we would have a forum dedicated to dividing Coptic into polar enemies.
I was merely jesting :)
When we have manuscripts and other writings that show the invention of Aryan Afandi, does this constitute an opinion?
When we have attestation of modern recordings that show the instability of the so called GB, does this constitute an opinion.?
When you yourself know little of OB, through your own admission, to have the ability to conduct, hopefully, an unbiased comparison of both. Does this lack of knowledge make you an expert to make such a claim like the one above?
Throughout my dialogue with you, I tended to notice that you disregard research, manuscripts, modern recordings, modern books either intentionally or otherwise. Then you pass judgment on others and dilute their facts as mere opinions.
I am baffled at how one of your caliber has reached that point. Really?
The word "kai" in Greek is spelled in Coptic the exact same way as in Greek but pronounced differently "kay". However modern books started dropping the i and that is why it is nowadays pronounced "ke.
Well scholars in Greece state that they always pronounced Greek relatively similar to how it is pronounced today so for Kai while it is spelled with an i the i isn't long...I think we are saying the same thing. Are you talking about modern Coptic books or modern Greek books? Both Greek and Coptic (at least today pronounce it the same).
As for Greco Bohairic vs Old Bohairic (sorry Minatasgeel since I know you don't like us calling it GB :P ), I was reading a few pages from an online book called The coptic Morning Service and the author who was British observes that the people pronounced Coptic in the OB style (though he doesn't call it that) while he believes that the proper pronunciation is the GB. A Coptic priest told me that he saw a document with both Coptic and Arabic written "Shlaal" rather than Eshlil so we can't just pass by it as if the Coptic pronunciation was never different..I don't know enough on the matter but I'm just making conclusions from the information I was given, or have seen. I'm all for authenticity but to bring back OB would probably need to come from the top (since I don't think a grassroots level initation would work in this case). That would be quite an overhaul in our churches.
really?! you are using that against him......this verse was towards faith into God and not a language that means NOTHING to God.
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12861.msg151352#msg151352 date=1328124239]
As for Greco Bohairic vs Old Bohairic (sorry Minatasgeel since I know you don't like us calling it GB :P ),
OMG......you read my posts :-D there are books that have coptic transliteration in arabic that matches OB. But logically, to me, i don't consider that to be a good reason for proven that something. even if it comes from the top, it will not happen.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12861.msg151350#msg151350 date=1328117303] I have a suggestion for you Reminkimi, you need to care. God hates lukewarmness .
really?! you are using that against him......this verse was towards faith into God and not a language that means NOTHING to God.
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12861.msg151352#msg151352 date=1328124239]
As for Greco Bohairic vs Old Bohairic (sorry Minatasgeel since I know you don't like us calling it GB :P ),
OMG......you read my posts :-D there are books that have coptic transliteration in arabic that matches OB. But logically, to me, i don't consider that to be a good reason for proven that something. even if it comes from the top, it will not happen.
Haha, yes I do read your posts. Why is that surprising? You are one of my "go-to" guys on here ;)
The language people pray in does not matter. End of discussion.
If you disagree with this, you must also disagree with other OO Churches, who have never prayed in Coptic. This is logically impossible as we are 1 church. The church transcends language boundaries. If it does not, it means that some people cannot be saved - because of language!
The only use for Coptic is to preserve our heritage, as westerners are very interested in the concept of heritage, and it adds authenticity to the church.