Liturgy

mark.naguib7

I was looking on an Ethiopian website and I found that they have different Anaphoras than we do. Here is the list that they had:
Official Anaphoras:
1) Of the Apostles
2) Of our Lord Jesus Christ
3) Of our Lady Mary
4) Of St. John Chrysostom
5) Of St. Dioscorus
6) Of St. John the Evangelist
7) Of St. Gregory the Armenian
8) Of the 318 Orthodox
9) Of St. Athanasius
10) Of St.Basil
11) Of St. Gregory Nazianzen
12) Of St.Epiphanius
13) Of St. Cyril
14) Of James Serug

How come we only have St. Cyril's, St. Greogry's, and St. Basil's? Also, I heard from two different sources that St. James's is the oldest one and from other source that St. Cyril's or St. Mark's is the oldest one. Any clarification please?

minatasgeel

[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12901.msg151685#msg151685 date=1328980949]
How come we only have St. Cyril's, St. Greogry's, and St. Basil's?

Quick answer: because we are Copts and they are Ethiopians. They have their own liturgies and rites and we have our own.

mark.naguib7

[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12901.msg151688#msg151688 date=1328981118]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12901.msg151685#msg151685 date=1328980949]
How come we only have St. Cyril's, St. Greogry's, and St. Basil's?

Quick answer: because we are Copts and they are Ethiopians. They have their own liturgies and rites and we have our own.


Fair enough, but is there anything that we disagree on in those liturgies?

minatasgeel

There are some old recordings of coptic priests praying some of these (anaphoras of Saint Mary, El-Maryam and St John the Evangelist, Youhanna Ebn el-ra'd) BUT the Pope declared a couple of years ago that we are not to pray with them because the arabic translation may have some theological mistakes.

mark.naguib7

[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12901.msg151697#msg151697 date=1328985330]
There are some old recordings of coptic priests praying some of these (anaphoras of Saint Mary, El-Maryam and St John the Evangelist, Youhanna Ebn el-ra'd) BUT the Pope declared a couple of years ago that we are not to pray with them because the arabic translation may have some theological mistakes.


Oh, I see.

[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12901.msg151685#msg151685 date=1328980949]
Also, I heard from two different sources that St. James's is the oldest one and from other source that St. Cyril's or St. Mark's is the oldest one. Any clarification please?

joekeliny

In a sermon from H.G Anba David i heard at my church like 2 days ago...

We had these then cut them down to only 3. But the ethopians just kept them.

Theophilus 1

St. Fremantius was ordained to be bishop of Ethiopia by St. Athanasius in 328AD. He translated the Gospels and other materials. In the late 5th century 9 pilgrims, known as the Nine Saints in the Ethiopian/Eritrean Church came to the region fleeing the Chalcedonian persecution. The Nine Saints were from all over Christendom including Rome and Syria among others. They learned the local language and went about translating manuscripts and establishing churches and monasteries. It is very likely (I haven’t heard/read this from a definitive source) that the Ethiopian/Eritrean church have liturgies found in other Orthodox Churches but not in the Coptic Church doe to the influence of the Nine Saints. The Nine Saints probably translated the liturgies used in the local church prior to their exile. 

In Christ
Theophilus 

Theophilus 1

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Remnkemi

In case you're interested, the text of the 14 Ethiopian liturgies can be found here

Ironically, it was translated into Arabic/English by a Coptic priest (Fr Marcos Daoud in 1939), not an Ethiopian one. In the introduction, there is a little more clarification on the histories of these liturgies, including the 9 Syrian monks.

Personally, I think these liturgies did not come from Egypt as many people believe. In fact, the three liturgies of Sts Basil, Gregory and Cyril have a great degree of divergence from the Coptic versions. In the Ethiopian versions of these three liturgies, there are sections copied from other liturgies (especially the Anaphora of the Apostles). There is no internal evidence that these liturgies came from Egypt.

I also did find some sections that were theologically questionable. For example, the Anaphora of the Lord addresses the Father in a section and then addresses the Son (without any clear transition). This obviously was a major contention among the Copts. We don't switch praying between the Father and the Son. That is why some clergy refuse to say Peklaos gar/Je nai nan during the Liturgy of St Basil.

There are other examples. A thorough, scientific and methodological research is needed.

Theophilus 1

[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12901.msg152995#msg152995 date=1331663523]
In case you're interested, the text of the 14 Ethiopian liturgies can be found here

Ironically, it was translated into Arabic/English by a Coptic priest (Fr Marcos Daoud in 1939), not an Ethiopian one. In the introduction, there is a little more clarification on the histories of these liturgies, including the 9 Syrian monks.

Personally, I think these liturgies did not come from Egypt as many people believe. In fact, the three liturgies of Sts Basil, Gregory and Cyril have a great degree of divergence from the Coptic versions. In the Ethiopian versions of these three liturgies, there are sections copied from other liturgies (especially the Anaphora of the Apostles). There is no internal evidence that these liturgies came from Egypt.

I also did find some sections that were theologically questionable. For example, the Anaphora of the Lord addresses the Father in a section and then addresses the Son (without any clear transition). This obviously was a major contention among the Copts. We don't switch praying between the Father and the Son. That is why some clergy refuse to say Peklaos gar/Je nai nan during the Liturgy of St Basil.

There are other examples. A thorough, scientific and methodological research is needed.



Thanks Remnkemi. The link is so helpful, I learned a lot!