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Mary and Salvation
I'm reading "Becoming Orthodox" by Peter Gillquist. He spoke about something that I'm not clear on theologically and was hoping someone could clerify it for me.
In one chapter the author has a section called "Mary and Salvation". He asks the question "can Mary save us" and he answers yes.
My question is do you believe, as Orthodox Christians, that Mary can give us salvation or do you think the author was talking about Mary interceeding in prayer for us can save us or am I missing it all together?
In one chapter the author has a section called "Mary and Salvation". He asks the question "can Mary save us" and he answers yes.
My question is do you believe, as Orthodox Christians, that Mary can give us salvation or do you think the author was talking about Mary interceeding in prayer for us can save us or am I missing it all together?
Comments
ReturnOrthodoxy
Can you clerify about your relationship to Mary and the saints and prayer?
I did read later on that he did indeed say that only Christ gives us salvation. I just needed to read a bit further. On another note, he mentioned something along the lines that Mary and maybe the saints interceeds in prayer for us.
Can you clerify about your relationship to Mary and the saints and prayer?
It's just like asking someone here on Earth to pray for you.
They can do nothing of themselves, but ask God to help you.
We know that certain people are "more dear" to God in this sense (I don't mean anything absolutist of course).
St Mary herself interceded at the Wedding of Cana at Galilee, and Jesus performed his first miracle, in spite of the fact that Jesus' hour "has not yet come" John 2:2
And Becoming Orthodox is a great book!
Salvation is a term which Biblically speaking is synonymous with healing; this is the reason why Christ used to perform miracles because the two expressions can be used interchangeably.
When saints perform miracles, they're not just performing signs of God's power, they're delivering it with the promise of salvation attached.
Another explanation is that when Christ healed people he used to treat healing much like he does our acceptance of salvation, i.e. He asked people if they believed He could do this for them and if they believed in Him He granted them healing. This meant that a work or healing was also a work of salvation because it is mandatory for person to believe that God can not just heal them but deliver them from sin and death also.
This is to say that in the same way that saints can bring God's healing to people when they work miracles, they also bring God's salvation to people in the same fashion.
We should also extend this not just to working miracles but their intercessions or prayers which are symbolic of Christ's own intercession to the Father.
In the same way that a person must pray in the Holy Spirit to Christ asking Him to grant us salvation, if we offer up this same request to the Virgin or the saints in the Holy Spirit we can be granted the same fruits of salvation and grace.
Its also a bit like how the Priesthood through it symbolism of Christ as the One True High Priest bring salvation to us through sacramental participation.
The basis for all of this is that God doesn't want to position Himself as the sole executor and performer of our salvation. He has granted to us to be able to share not only in the salvation which is granted to us but to then in turn share its light and power with other people we come in contact with. It is also why we put the Church into a position of honour and proclaim that we cannot be saved without her because it is necessary that we make use of these means to have salvation or we will not be granted it.
we say in the midnight praises 'all joy befits you, oh mother of God, for through your Son salvation came to the world'. we don't say in any of our hymns or liturgy that the saints save us.
remember salvation is a continuous process (see my post in the other thread). salvation comes with the help of all those who lead us to God. but only God can forgive sins. if i lead u to God, tell u of God's glory and do one or two miracles to convince u (no, i don't do that in real life!) then i have lead u to salvation, but i have not saved u.
good points, but to go as far as saying any saints 'save' us is going further than the church hymns and church tradition.
we say in the midnight praises 'all joy befits you, oh mother of God, for through your Son salvation came to the world'. we don't say in any of our hymns or liturgy that the saints save us.
remember salvation is a continuous process (see my post in the other thread). salvation comes with the help of all those who lead us to God. but only God can forgive sins. if i lead u to God, tell u of God's glory and do one or two miracles to convince u (no, i don't do that in real life!) then i have lead u to salvation, but i have not saved u.
I didn't actually say that the saints 'save' us. hehe.
I was saying if saints can perform works of healing they're demonstrating God's power of salvation along with it.
Check out this story...
[quote=2 kings 5]Now Naaman was commander of the army of the king of Aram. He was a great man in the sight of his master and highly regarded, because through him the LORD had given victory to Aram. He was a valiant soldier, but he had leprosy. Now bands of raiders from Aram had gone out and had taken captive a young girl from Israel, and she served Naaman’s wife. She said to her mistress, “If only my master would see the prophet who is in Samaria! He would cure him of his leprosy.”
Naaman went to his master and told him what the girl from Israel had said. “By all means, go,” the king of Aram replied. “I will send a letter to the king of Israel.” So Naaman left, taking with him ten talents of silver, six thousand shekels of gold and ten sets of clothing. The letter that he took to the king of Israel read: “With this letter I am sending my servant Naaman to you so that you may cure him of his leprosy.”
As soon as the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his robes and said, “Am I God? Can I kill and bring back to life? Why does this fellow send someone to me to be cured of his leprosy? See how he is trying to pick a quarrel with me!”
When Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his robes, he sent him this message: “Why have you torn your robes? Have the man come to me and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel.” So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha’s house. Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, “Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed.”
But Naaman went away angry and said, “I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them and be cleansed?” So he turned and went off in a rage.
Naaman’s servants went to him and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, ‘Wash and be cleansed’!” So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy.
Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. So please accept a gift from your servant.”
The prophet answered, “As surely as the LORD lives, whom I serve, I will not accept a thing.” And even though Naaman urged him, he refused.
“If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the LORD. But may the LORD forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD forgive your servant for this.”
“Go in peace,” Elisha said.
"This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:11-12)
It is also worth noting that their intercession does not change the will of God since it is immovable.
You guys need to be cautious in the way you write things. Bottom line: saints do not save us but rather intercede.
"This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:11-12)
It is also worth noting that their intercession does not change the will of God since it is immovable.
I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but i have always had this question. If it doesn't change the will of God then why do we do it? If God's will is going to be done anyways, plus God knows what's good for us why would we intercede to people other than him?
I am not challenging this, but i have been doing it for so long that when people ask me why, i don't know what to tell them. I just accepted it like it is and i really want to know why. I know there is an answer, i just don't know what it is. Also, i think this answer would be helpful to the many others that have been wondering the same thing.
It's the same logic behind praying (without intercession) in the first place.
In a general sense, We can't move God's will.
However, one might ask then why did St Mary's intercession at the wedding of Cana work? Even though it was not Christs time yet.
We do it because it is biblical, but I too would like an interpretation of why the Bible says this.
-Jonah 3:10
This is the power of prayer.
"Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it."
-Jonah 3:10
This is the power of prayer.
God does not make mistakes. Nor does he repent. Sometimes, scripture is written in such a way to help our feeble minds understand. Therefore, we must be cautious when stumbling upon verses like these. ALWAYS SEEK ORTHODOX FATHERS! Let me quote Fr. Tadros Malaty's book with regards to this verse:
" Formerly, some people were stumbled by the Biblical expression "God relented": does God then change His mind? (the scripture)...uses this human expression to help us understand. God does not relent, or change His mind; it is humanity which changes its position towards God and then the sentence changes accordingly. When people challenge God, they fall under discipline, and when they cease to do evil and return to God they find Him there with His arms spread open to welcome them. This is what is meant by relenting. When God passes a sentence for disciplinary measures, He does not insist on its fulfillment but rather He announces the sentence so that people would stop their evil and He would forgive them."
geomike,
The answer to prayer is simple. We do not pray that God fulfills our will but His will. By praying we are asking God to align our hearts and minds to His will because His will is what is best. We also pray in order to develop a personal relationship with God. Without it, it's impossible to get to know Him on a deep level; just like it's impossible for you to have a best friend without conversing with him/her. By it, we are in communion with God. So much can be gained through prayer such as: grace, patience, discipline, power, and so on.
Here are two nice articles on prayer:
http://suscopts.org/resources/literature/760/prayer-enigmatic-of-the-east/
http://suscopts.org/resources/literature/753/when-you-pray/
God bless
it is good to quote church teaching :)
mikeforJesus
are u upset about something? pls talk to a friend or priest or send a personal message.