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Palm Sunday/ Shaanine traditions
Recently others have mentioned the tradition of weaving palms which nearly all of us have done or have seen others doing during the Palm Sunday liturgy. As a child, I grew up thinking that this was normal and that it was actually supposed to be done! ...thinking that it was tradition. Then, coming out of my own small Coptic shell (which happened fairly quickly and earlier than my peers), I also realized quickly that what we are doing actually seems to be very disrespectful.
We are weaving baskets and shapes of donkeys and lanterns only to bring them home to enjoy for the one day....but at the expense of ignoring the deacon's call to "bow your heads to the Lord" when the Actual Body of Christ is on the altar before us.
My teta, being a wise woman she is, had the tradition of weaving all her palms on Saturday evening and simply bringing one or two palms with her to church on Sunday morning but not actually weaving them there, so that she could pay attention and participate in the liturgy as should be done.
My question is: is this weaving business during the liturgy a tradition of the Coptic church or is it just one of those things which have slipped through the cracks like so many other things? (ie. when the 'deacons' run in and out of the altar through the main door reserved solely for priests and full deacons).
We are weaving baskets and shapes of donkeys and lanterns only to bring them home to enjoy for the one day....but at the expense of ignoring the deacon's call to "bow your heads to the Lord" when the Actual Body of Christ is on the altar before us.
My teta, being a wise woman she is, had the tradition of weaving all her palms on Saturday evening and simply bringing one or two palms with her to church on Sunday morning but not actually weaving them there, so that she could pay attention and participate in the liturgy as should be done.
My question is: is this weaving business during the liturgy a tradition of the Coptic church or is it just one of those things which have slipped through the cracks like so many other things? (ie. when the 'deacons' run in and out of the altar through the main door reserved solely for priests and full deacons).
Comments
In my church, and I'm sure many others, the liturgy has no spirituality to it at all. With kids running, crying, and so many other things going on, It's honestly hard for me to believe that there's saints with us in the church, and that this is the TRUE Body and Blood of Christ. With Abouna rushing most of the time, I feel like it's just mere words that have no spirituality at all. I know it's wrong to think that way, but it's hard sometimes.
is that during general times or specifically on that day? Also, what church iis this?
Being Egyptian vs Being Coptic.
People would rather take care of weaving vs. taking care of their kids.
Weaving the palms is a wonderful thing--but not in church.
Let me ask you this. Why do we expect someone to rebuke the children for palm weaving during liturgy? Are we not glad that children are coming to Christ, doing what children normally do? When people brought their babies to Jesus to place his hands on them, the disciples rebuked the parents. And were the Apostles justified in doing this? No. Jesus told them "“Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them". Don't you think if we insisted on children behave unnaturally like motionless angels, then they will stop coming to Church for not being able to maintain such a standard? Is not the Church a hospital for all people, or is it a meeting hall for men who have become angels? If it is the latter, then I myself should stop coming to Church and coming to Christ. If it is the prior, then how can we expect them to be something they are not. Christ didn't expect it.
I am not advocating disorganization or spiritual laziness. But as a father, I can tell you I'd rather my child spend a few hours weaving palms in God's house than become my child's prosecutor or executor for moving an inch during a 5 hour service and not becoming some sort of supernatural motionless angel.
I find it disturbing that there is so much talk about Egyptian vs. Coptic. Such talk implies only Copts belong in the Church. When did the Church become anti-Egyptian and racist? When did we prioritorize culture over spiritual need? Additionally, it's an illogical comparison. Coptic means Egyptian.
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13124.msg154193#msg154193 date=1333553743]
In my church, and I'm sure many others, the liturgy has no spirituality to it at all. With kids running, crying, and so many other things going on, It's honestly hard for me to believe that there's saints with us in the church, and that this is the TRUE Body and Blood of Christ. With Abouna rushing most of the time, I feel like it's just mere words that have no spirituality at all. I know it's wrong to think that way, but it's hard sometimes.
is that during general times or specifically on that day? Also, what church iis this?
Ots literally all the time. I go to st Paul in Atlantic
City
Don't get up tight. I'm not talking about kids. I kind of like kids running around. I just don't adults weaving and running around.
If an adult is attentive then the kid will be nurtured and disciplined little by little.
I was talking about the guys that set-up the factory assembly belt on the church pew.
I was once a kid (hard to believe). Although, I wasn't cute. I had a mustache since I was born.
I just don't like the Egyptian thing in church.
As for me, I am neither Egyptian or Coptic. I am an internet phenomenon. I don't exist.
I'm hoping to have someone weave me a donkey (jackass) so I can put the label of the most famous democrat in the USA on it.
(That comment should probably be censored but what the hey, you can use that term on Palm Sunday, and the party symbol for the Democrats is a jackass.)
I agree totally the church is a hospital.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13124.msg154203#msg154203 date=1333558709]
Are we expecting a church of motionless, "well behaved" people and children or a church of human beings? Are we expecting millions of Copts to all of a sudden stop being human beings and become angels? When St John the Short became proud in his heart and told his older brother that he wanted to pray like the angels, his brother rebuked him a week later when St John knocked on his door and said "John is dead. He has become an angel" and the brother refused to open the door. Think about it for a minute. People are supposed to act as people, not motionless angels.
No, we are not expecting Copts to stop being human, but since when is disorganization a part of the human condition. We are asking them to stop being disrespectful. I feel that this is a false dichotomy; they are either angels or Egyptians. Well, why don't we encourage organization? We pray in Agpeya, "Whenever we stand in your Holy sanctuary, we are considered as those sanding in heave." So even with the dichotomy, I see nothing wrong in expecting people to be angels in church. With regards to the story from the paradise, John wanted to live in the wilderness in opposition to what he had been told. People often time map the mistake of taking a biblical or patristic truth, and taking the "moral" of it and applying it into todays world, but it isn't always like that. There is a difference between wanting to go into the desert and not worry about anything, and keeping the church organized, clean, and somber. St. John was rebuked for doing something overly angelic in reference to a fixed standard. That standard still applies today. Wanting to run away into the middle of no-where without proper background overshoots that standard. Organizing the church strictly does not.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13124.msg154203#msg154203 date=1333558709]
Let me ask you this. Why do we expect someone to rebuke the children for palm weaving during liturgy? Are we not glad that children are coming to Christ, doing what children normally do? When people brought their babies to Jesus to place his hands on them, the disciples rebuked the parents. And were the Apostles justified in doing this? No. Jesus told them "“Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them". Don't you think if we insisted on children behave unnaturally like motionless angels, then they will stop coming to Church for not being able to maintain such a standard? Is not the Church a hospital for all people, or is it a meeting hall for men who have become angels? If it is the latter, then I myself should stop coming to Church and coming to Christ. If it is the prior, then how can we expect them to be something they are not. Christ didn't expect it. [Emphasis Mine]
Again, Rem, this is a dichotomy. Why can't we tell the children to weave their palms outside the church, in the meeting halls after liturgy or in sunday school etc.? If me telling them not to weave palms during liturgy drives them away from church, then we have a bigger problem that needs to be address. I'm not saying behave like motionless angels, but I am saying, behave in respect. Kids running around, and throwing palm leaves left, right, and centre is just outright crazy! I don't see how you can take the verse about letting the children come to Christ implies that didn't expect proper behaviour in church. He was a Rabbi knowing the importance of respect for Holy places. Letting the children come to God does not involve the necessity of letting them go crazy in church. Why can they not stand (or sit) somewhat quietly, and if they get restless, they can go for a breath of air outside? Like ILSM said, some kids with palms is fine. But when the church becomes a play place, it distracts me to a new extreme.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13124.msg154203#msg154203 date=1333558709]
I am not advocating disorganization or spiritual laziness. But as a father, I can tell you I'd rather my child spend a few hours weaving palms in God's house than become my child's prosecutor or executor for moving an inch during a 5 hour service and not becoming some sort of supernatural motionless angel.[Emphasis Mine]
I know your not advocating laziness, I have read your posts, and your view of proper spirituality is solid. But again, do you see the false dichotomy that you make? Its either palm weaving or not moving an inch for 5 hours. I don't have a kid. You do. You know more than me, and as always, I am willing to understand that I simply don't know. You obviously have thought this out more than me.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13124.msg154203#msg154203 date=1333558709]
I find it disturbing that there is so much talk about Egyptian vs. Coptic. Such talk implies only Copts belong in the Church. When did the Church become anti-Egyptian and racist? When did we prioritorize culture over spiritual need? Additionally, it's an illogical comparison. Coptic means Egyptian.
Such talk does not imply that only Copts belong in the church, but rather, that only church behaviour belongs in a church. I am not against Egyptians, but against some of the stereotypically egyptian things that we do. I am not racist; if anything I am racist against non-egyptians (For some reason, most of my friends are egyptian lol). I guess I see your point. We need to cater to the needs of people. But my point is that we need to have respect for the church as well. The church is a hospital as you and ILSM have said, but a hospital has the intention of helping people get better. To help people get better, we should encourage them to act in organization.
Pray for me
ReturnOrthodoxy
We need to accept people with simplicity and not rebuke them. We were once ignorant and now we may think we know. Let's bear the weakness of others and with love make them aware of what they are missing.
Rem,
Don't get up tight. I'm not talking about kids. I kind of like kids running around. I just don't adults weaving and running around.
If an adult is attentive then the kid will be nurtured and disciplined little by little.
I was talking about the guys that set-up the factory assembly belt on the church pew.
I was once a kid (hard to believe). Although, I wasn't cute. I had a mustache since I was born.
I just don't like the Egyptian thing in church.
As for me, I am neither Egyptian or Coptic. I am an internet phenomenon. I don't exist.
I'm hoping to have someone weave me a donkey (jackass) so I can put the label of the most famous democrat in the USA on it.
(That comment should probably be censored but what the hey, you can use that term on Palm Sunday, and the party symbol for the Democrats is a jackass.)
I agree totally the church is a hospital.
I think you are the most interesting man not in the world lol
I will be making a very special heart from weaving the palm. I plan to decorate to a level I have never done before. I am going to call the design the Pope Shenouda heart in honor (honour) of his deeply moving words--even in pain, agony, and the knocking of departure from this world--as he stated: 'you are all in my heart'.
I really really really really really miss His Holiness. I wish I can give him that heart. I really wanted to do something for his funeral. I think for those of us in North America, we were fortunate to have Bp David represent us at the front of the casket and bearing the brunt of the weight of the situation. We are fortunate to have fathers. We are fortunate to have mothers.
Happy Weaving everyone!
Without a doubt this is my favorite (favourite) Feast!
I have just purchased over 24 dozen flowers and getting my working kit (ribbons, zip ties, twist ties, tape, pruning sheers, and scissors) together for weaving the palms for the coming Feast. I haven't done a large scale decoration to the level that I used to in a long long long long time. I think this thread has inspired me to carry out a very painful 24 hours to come. I hope my fingers, eyes, and back hold out.
I will be making a very special heart from weaving the palm. I plan to decorate to a level I have never done before. I am going to call the design the Pope Shenouda heart in honor (honour) of his deeply moving words--even in pain, agony, and the knocking of departure from this world--as he stated: 'you are all in my heart'.
I really really really really really miss His Holiness. I wish I can give him that heart. I really wanted to do something for his funeral. I think for those of us in North America, we were fortunate to have Bp David represent us at the front of the casket and bearing the brunt of the weight of the situation. We are fortunate to have fathers. We are fortunate to have mothers.
Happy Weaving everyone!
Without a doubt this is my favorite (favourite) Feast!
ILSM, what church do you go to?
I have just purchased over 24 dozen flowers and getting my working kit (ribbons, zip ties, twist ties, tape, pruning sheers, and scissors) together for weaving the palms for the coming Feast. I haven't done a large scale decoration to the level that I used to in a long long long long time. I think this thread has inspired me to carry out a very painful 24 hours to come. I hope my fingers, eyes, and back hold out.
I will be making a very special heart from weaving the palm. I plan to decorate to a level I have never done before. I am going to call the design the Pope Shenouda heart in honor (honour) of his deeply moving words--even in pain, agony, and the knocking of departure from this world--as he stated: 'you are all in my heart'.
I really really really really really miss His Holiness. I wish I can give him that heart. I really wanted to do something for his funeral. I think for those of us in North America, we were fortunate to have Bp David represent us at the front of the casket and bearing the brunt of the weight of the situation. We are fortunate to have fathers. We are fortunate to have mothers.
Happy Weaving everyone!
Without a doubt this is my favorite (favourite) Feast!
I thought you were "an internet phenomenon and don't exist." so how do you have fingers? ;)