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The Use of the Three Liturgies
From the Preface to The Coptic Morning Service For The Lord's Day (With The Original Coptic Of Those Parts Said Aloud. Translated into English by John, Marquis of Bute, K.T., London, J. Masters and Co., 78 New Bond Street. 1882):
Can anyone first of all confirm that the Three Liturgies were only prayed on the occasions mentioned above, with other references?
If it indeed correct, can anyone also shed some light on how/why the practice changed? Again, please provide reliable references, in any language.
Thanks.
This is of course not the current practice in the Church, in which priests frequently pray Gregorian or Cyrillian Liturgies, or mix some sections of the Liturgies together (e.g. Peklaoc gar commonly being chanted in the Liturgy of St. Basil).2. On the Offices of the Egyptian Church
There are three Liturgies, differing mostly in the Canon; of these, that called "of S. Basil" is used upon every occasion in the year except four. That called "of S. Gregory" is used for the Midnight Masses of Christmas, the Epiphany, and Easter; and that called "of S. Cyril," which is an adapted translation of the oldest Egyptian Liturgy, (St. Mark's, which is in Greek,) and which according to Mr. Hammond, is the most distinctly national in character, is only used once in the year, viz, upon the Friday before Palm Sunday.
Can anyone first of all confirm that the Three Liturgies were only prayed on the occasions mentioned above, with other references?
If it indeed correct, can anyone also shed some light on how/why the practice changed? Again, please provide reliable references, in any language.
Thanks.
Comments
Many of the things done now are not of great antiquity at all.
Could you please give examples Father?
And at what point does it particularly matter whether the rites change?
My concern is when things change through a lack of discipline, or through what appears to be a casual response to some passing situation, or even through what appears to be a lack of understanding of the Tradition.
There are a great many instances. One is the present approach to clerical headgear such that the practices of even Pope St Kyrillos now appear to be non-Coptic, whereas in fact the present trends are only of a few decades extent. The Tradition teaches us that a priest should not pray outside the liturgy with his head covered with his black hat, but the present recent practice is to do so. Indeed it is now said that a priest must always have his head covered, but this was not the case a few decades ago, and for 1500 years before that.
Another is the dress and ordination of servants, such that there are many who do not know how to dress, or even what rank they hold, nor the responsibilities of those ranks. Chanters act as if they were servants of the altar.
Another is the reception of members of the Chalcedonian communion. Certainly until the 19th century any person seeking to become part of the Coptic Church from the Chalcedonian communion was never, ever received by anointing but only by prayer and confession of faith. The present practice is to anoint such people, but for 1500 years we had never anointed any Chalcedonian, and St Severus rejects the idea of anointing such people in the very strongest terms.
These are just a few examples of things that seem very widespread, but of very recent occurrence. My concern is that these present practices then become the Tradition through ignorance of the real Tradition. Though I do disagree with imikhail on some points, he does have a firm grasp of the Traditional practice of the Coptic Orthodox Church, as does ILSM.
Father Peter
;)
;D
may the blessing of Holy Week be with all yr church.
In many ways, the examples you give and the example JG gives reinforce my ongoing argument that we are practicing things in a social and cultural matrix. Religion, especially Orthodoxy, is not exempt from anthropological processes. All cultures are dynamic. Anthropology illustrates how numerous societies develop and change over time. It is a natural process. For some reason, many believe that a conservative community like the Coptic Church can withstand the dynamic influences of society. For some reason, many believe the Coptic Church can and should live in a proverbial fortress fighting off the religious oppression of Islam and the Arab culture at one end and the "devilish", liberal reform of modern day Western society at the other end. In reality, the Coptic Church with all her canons and beliefs are dynamic, not static. The Coptic Church changes just like all other societies and churches. The Coptic Church cannot live as a proverbial fortress. As John Donne said, "No man (or society or church) is an island, entire of itself. every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind,"
Look at what John Donne said. "Perchance he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that." In the context of our discussion, "thinking myself so much better" is akin to believing that my church doesn't have to follow the same dynamic forces as other societies who have "succumbed" to change. But the bell tolls. And though it may seem to toll for a society that has become so ill by constant change, those who see my church, may believe that the Coptic Church has caused the bell to toll and I did not know it. In other words, social change is the bell. It happens to every society. And though I think other societies have changed to the point of determent and my society is exempt, I fail to recognize that my society has already changed. "Never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee", John Donne concludes. In other words, don't ask who should be subject to change. It has already changed for you.
John Donne's poem explores the interconnectedness of humanity. Anthropological forces do not discriminate. All societies that are interconnected are affected and experience typical change. The examples mentioned before is evidence of this dynamic change of an interconnected humanity as it applies to the Coptic Church.
Note. Anthropological change and interconnectedness does not give license to laziness, lack of discipline or ignorant and uneducated excuses. Many of the examples given reflect a sense of laziness or desire to move away from discipline. However, change is not inherently wrong. Change and Tradition are not dichotomous poles. Tradition is diachronic. It changes over time because Tradition is part of the interconnectedness of humanity. It is wrong to think Tradition should withstand change.
PS. Fr Peter, I thought I might get some extra brownie points from you by quoting a famous British philosopher and humanitarian instead of an American one. Did it work?
Will the Church's rites 50, 100, 500 years down the line resemble anything like the rites we have today? And will it matter if they are so different that they are unrecognisable?
I suppose the real question is how important and intimate the Church's rites are to the identity of the Church.
It is frequently said that there are no rites in the Church which are without meaning. Every action in the Liturgy, from the number of spoonfuls of incense the priest puts into the censer to the order of the praises has symbolic value, some spiritual meaning that makes it more than just a collection of random prayers and actions. The rites present the identity of the Church to the believers: the sights and sounds and smells and actions of the rites are strong linked to the spiritual tradition of the Church.
If we accept there have already been major changes in the rites since they were first instituted, and yet we still retain some spiritual values in the current rites, does it matter too much? i.e. if the rites have already seen some changes and still have some spiritual value, can we assume that a few hundred years down the line, some spirituality could still be gleaned from the rites?
Or have the changes in the rites only been minor in actuality? And if they are minor enough not to matter a great deal, is there anything to worry about at all?
None of the things I mentioned are positive aspects of enculturation, they are all rather problematic and seem due to a poor process of dealing with the 21st century.
I can see no cultural reason for changing the method of receiving Chalcedonians, or the headgear of priests, or the lack of discipline in the servants. There are other aspects of Orthodoxy that need to be properly enculturated, but these are not examples, as far as I can see.
There are photos that show many priests and bishops praying without their head covered, outside the Liturgy proper, and even documents stating that it is forbidden to pray when ones head is covered, outside of at the altar, but now the rule has changed. The shamla seems not to be worn any more, outside the British Orthodox Church and some other locations, but it is the proper dress of a single, non-monastic priest.
This is what I mean about things changing without the imperative of mission, but just as recent changes that it is hard to understand.
I do respect your knowledge, but imikhail is advanced in his knowledge of headgear.
My concern is that I am not confident changes are being made in the proper manner, or for the proper reasons, or with adequate authority.
JG, the trouble is that as far as I can see the Tradition has remained fairly static for at least 700 years, and in the last decades a great many changes have suddenly taken place. This is not normal for Orthodoxy. And if the rate of change accelerates then I must conclude, personally, that something is being lost.
My concern is that I am not confident changes are being made in the proper manner, or for the proper reasons, or with adequate authority.
Thank you Father.
Yes JG.. the practice has always been for the st. Gregory liturgy the three major feasts and holy fifties too probably.. as for st. Cyril, probably whole Lent and Jonah's fast...
Oujai
I'm so happy I'm reading such an argument coming from Fr. Peter..
Yes JG.. the practice has always been for the st. Gregory liturgy the three major feasts and holy fifties too probably.. as for st. Cyril, probably whole Lent and Jonah's fast...
Oujai
It is safe to say that it was the case up till 1882 at least.
When did this change, so that priests pray whichever Liturgy they want whenever? Or when did it become the norm to switch parts of the Liturgies around?
And more importantly, why?
These prayers are still used by many Orthodox churches.
These are not changes in the form of the Rite, but the content of the Rite, and the substance of our Praxis.
I am concerned by these modern developments.
Oujai
He also mentioned something of key importance. He quoted from the book of hours "whenever we stand to pray we are as those standing in heaven..." and he said how we must keep order and organization during prayer rather than stand as ornamental figures or squabble over who gets the mike...I am paraphrasing in my own words :)
peace.
Good question mabsoota, it seems that the shamla was a hat similar to the deacon's hat perhaps? I'd like to see how it would've looked like myself.
As far as I know the 3 Liturgies
St. Cyril - Is the Liturgy of St. Mark the Evangelist
St Basil - Is the Liturgy of St James the lesser
St Gregory - is the Liturgy of Gregory the Theologian or Gregory Nazianzen
Can anyone confirm that? and also what happened to St. Johns liturgy did it fall out of practice and why does the Ethiopians have it still?
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=13161.msg154508#msg154508 date=1334160720]
I'm so happy I'm reading such an argument coming from Fr. Peter..
Yes JG.. the practice has always been for the st. Gregory liturgy the three major feasts and holy fifties too probably.. as for st. Cyril, probably whole Lent and Jonah's fast...
Oujai
It is safe to say that it was the case up till 1882 at least.
When did this change, so that priests pray whichever Liturgy they want whenever? Or when did it become the norm to switch parts of the Liturgies around?
And more importantly, why?
Excuse my ignorance, but what is so significant about the year 1882?
I also thought that we do not know the tune for Cyril's liturgy, how do we still pray it?
Excuse my ignorance, but what is so significant about the year 1882?
I also thought that we do not know the tune for Cyril's liturgy, how do we still pray it?
It's just the date the book in my first post was published. It was mentioned in the book as being the (then) current practice of the Church. There might be another source out there that mentions it was done even more recently than that (I am no expert, I was reading the book out of interest).
And the tune for the Liturgy of St. Cyril has not completely been lost. Three original hymns (or parts of the liturgy) were recorded by Mlm Mikhail (the diptych, Okoti Je Anon (Litany for the Patriarchs) and the atika) - the Higher Institute under Fr. Mettias Nasr reconstructed the Liturgy using the Liturgy of St. Gregory and the Vespers Praise - so that the Liturgy of St. Cyril is available in Coptic. Here is an interview with Fr. Mettias talking about the process (towards the end of the interview).
Does anyone have any information about the Qodas al Habashi (The Liturgy of St. John the Evangelist)
As far as I know the 3 Liturgies
St. Cyril - Is the Liturgy of St. Mark the Evangelist
St Basil - Is the Liturgy of St James the lesser
St Gregory - is the Liturgy of Gregory the Theologian or Gregory Nazianzen
Can anyone confirm that? and also what happened to St. Johns liturgy did it fall out of practice and why does the Ethiopians have it still?
The Synod decided that only the above 3 liturgies are to be prayed in the churches. It was pretty recent. There was also an Ethiopian Liturgy called the "Maria Liturgy". I have a recording from 1985 of Father Bishoy Demetrious praying it. It is beautiful.