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Why have hazzat?
Can someone explain to me whats the point of stressing one syllable for a couple minutes long?
Comments
Now the music of the ancient egyptians is very deep. there are some extremely long hymns that are not recited much anymore. There are some other hymns that most people of the church have kept learning generation after generation because of their beauty. These hymns give a spiritual mood to the church and they add structure. there are also many contemplations on the hymns. Listening to the hymns gives a person a feel for the season of the church. some of the hymns have as many as 18 different tunes for the entire year and each one fits the season that we are in.
I understand that there is difficulty to many listening to these hymns especially in a language that they dont understand at all. and i agree completely that there is an issue. But the hazzat really do add a deep meaning to the words. Many of the hymns especially during the pascha and the resurrection have this unbelievable touch to them where each word matches the tune that is sung. its really a beautiful thing. We have preserved these tunes and traditions in the hymns and when to use them for millenia.
Try as much as you can to listen and use the time in which you listen to the hymns to contemplate and feel what is being said. as annoying as it is try to read the translations and understand what is being said. If you cant do any of those things pray to God close your eyes and use the music to really get you into Gods presence as David the Prophet says, enter into his courts with praise.
Pray for me
danny
The hymns that we use come from the pharaonic times. At that time all the egyptians knew were these hymns that they had previosuly used to praise the idols that they worshiped. Afterwards when christianity entered egypt, they took whatever they knew and put it onto these words.
Now the music of the ancient egyptians is very deep. there are some extremely long hymns that are not recited much anymore. There are some other hymns that most people of the church have kept learning generation after generation because of their beauty. These hymns give a spiritual mood to the church and they add structure. there are also many contemplations on the hymns. Listening to the hymns gives a person a feel for the season of the church. some of the hymns have as many as 18 different tunes for the entire year and each one fits the season that we are in.
I understand that there is difficulty to many listening to these hymns especially in a language that they dont understand at all. and i agree completely that there is an issue. But the hazzat really do add a deep meaning to the words. Many of the hymns especially during the pascha and the resurrection have this unbelievable touch to them where each word matches the tune that is sung. its really a beautiful thing. We have preserved these tunes and traditions in the hymns and when to use them for millenia.
Try as much as you can to listen and use the time in which you listen to the hymns to contemplate and feel what is being said. as annoying as it is try to read the translations and understand what is being said. If you cant do any of those things pray to God close your eyes and use the music to really get you into Gods presence as David the Prophet says, enter into his courts with praise.
Pray for me
danny
Only epouro and golgotha are from the pharonic tunes.
Geomike. sorry thats completely incorrect lol pekethronos, ten theno, etc etc. the list goes on. All of this music comes from ancient times. and If the hymn was placed later on it was made of the same school of music so really the hymns do come from pharaonic lineage
Christ_rose. i wouldn't go as far saying these hymns are so. simply no proof even though there are many studies in egypt are taking place to prove a stronger connection between our hymns to pharaonic times.
What i can tell you and i am sure of is that studies were made and found that on many of the walls of temples in egypt, marks that represent "hazzat" (which are called "ornaments" btw) that we as deacon have.
Ekhrestos anesty
Baketronos is a Lebanese tune in origin... Mina is right
Oujai
Dear Christ_rose,
Ekhrestos anesty
Baketronos is a Lebanese tune in origin... Mina is right
Oujai
are you just saying that because it is "el-lahn elshami"?!
1. Owo nai nem
2. Tenen or evol hiten long
3. gregorian long amen
Yes Mina.. that's what I meant.. as Christ_rose exactly said it doesn't refer to Lebanese only
Amoussa01, you bring up a very nice point.. danan, awolhedan and hos arof aren't known to be pharaonic in origin, but I don't think they are shamy either.. I guess similarities in tunes may have brought them that close, but that's my tuppence..
Oujai
There is absolutely no evidence that any Coptic sacred music (alhan) is explicitly derived from Pharaonic music. There is strong circumstantial evidence of Pharonic influence, but nothing conclusive. In fact, Marian Robertson in 1977 showed that the lack of musical transcription makes it nearly impossible to prove any correlation of any hymn. Without some sort of musical transcription, we can't say that two hymns with the same title, a Pharaonic "Pekethronos" and the current Pekethronos, are the same. It's all circumstantial.
There has been some evidence of musical instruments from Pharaonic times, but this has very little to do with contemporary Coptic alhan. There has also been some evidence of non-Christian Coptic horoscopes with evidence of music transcription. But nothing Christian.
I will also point out that the coincidence of a Coptic hymn having the same title (or nickname) as a city does not prove that hymn came from that city. Otto Meinardus wrote an article on all manuscript evidence of Singari (the city). There is no manuscript evidence of any hymn coming from that city. The first mention of the Singari inscription for the hymn comes from the Deacon Service Book. The first edition was 1936 (I believe).
The only person who claimed Coptic music was handed down from the Pharaohs is Ragheb Moftah. And he did not have any evidence to support this claim.
Mina, I'm not sure that's true.. I'll be interested to see evidence of that..
Oujai
Saint Basil the Great on Oral Tradition
“Concerning the teachings of the Church, whether publicly proclaimed (kerygma) or reserved to members of the household of faith (dogmata), we have received some from written sources, while others have been given to us secretly, through apostolic tradition…
For instance (to take the first and most common example), where is the written teaching that we should sign with the sign of the Cross those who, trusting in the Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, are to be enrolled as catechumens? Which book teaches us to pray facing the East? Have any saints left for us in writing the words to be used in the invocation over the Eucharistic bread and the cup of blessing? As everyone knows, we are not content in the liturgy simply to recite the words recorded by Saint Paul and the Gospels, but we add other words both before and after, words of great importance for this mystery. We have received these words from unwritten teaching. We bless the baptismal water and the oil for Chrismation as well as the candidate approaching the font. By what written authority do we do this, if not from secret and mystical tradition?…Are not all these things found in unpublished and unwritten teachings, which our fathers guarded in silence, safe from meddling and petty curiosity? They had learned their lesson well; reverence for the mysteries is best encouraged by silence. (On the Holy Spirit 27.65-66)”
Metzger, Marcel. (1997). History of the liturgy. Minnesota: The Liturgical Press.
This is different than what St Basil is saying. As bishop and great doctor and pillar of Orthodoxy, he had credibility without any supporting evidence. If he says we have received these words from unwritten teaching, then one will have a harder time challenging it. However, when it comes to musical tradition of pre-Christian era, there is no ultimate authority. It is all the more important to provide corroborated written evidence. Otherwise, certain persons will make allegations that people will consider infallible based on oral tradition. In this sense, we have stepped outside the realm of oral tradition and entered into politics. (i.e., so and so has unquestionable authority and he is allowed to claim anything even if it wrong). Do you see the difference?
I personally believe the latter has happened when Ragheb Moftah claimed certain Coptic hymns are Pharaonic. In my opinion, it is because of his political influence on the Church that people have considered his claim infallible, even in the absence of evidence.
Who are the descendants of Pharaoh? The modern Copts.
Every nation has a folklore, culture and a certain way of composing musing and singing songs. It is true that we cannot link a certain hymn to an old Pharaonic one. But we can say for a fat that the kind of music used in the Coptic Church is linked to the Pharoanic times.
Remenkimi makes a number of compelling points regarding the labeling of hymns by their supposed origin even thought that cannot always be proven. Take for instance Apetjeek Evol & Apinav Shopi. Ragheb Muftah claimed that Muallim Mikhail learned one of these hymns from El-Minya. In one interview he said that he learned Apetjeek Evol from a lame female cantor in El-Minya. However, in an article he wrote in El-Keraza (I believe in 1975) it was Apinav Shopi that he had said was handed down to Muallim Mikhail from someone in El-Minya - in an interview with Fr. Matthias Nasr Mankarious shortly before Muftah's death he said it was only one hymn handed down to Muallim Mikhail from El-Minya and it was Apetjeek Evol. Regardless - it would have been easy for one of these tunes to have been known as Al-La7n ElMinawy despite no clear evidence on where the tune originated.
Who knows, maybe one day we will find "hazzat" written out in a dated document for some of the hymns that we alll long to know about their origin and history, maybe a note in a margin regarding the origin. We can certainly hope.
Who are the Pharoahs? They are the early inhabitants of Egypt.
Who are the descendants of Pharaoh? The modern Copts.
Every nation has a folklore, culture and a certain way of composing musing and singing songs. It is true that we cannot link a certain hymn to an old Pharaonic one. But we can say for a fat that the kind of music used in the Coptic Church is linked to the Pharoanic times.
Look at this book.. It's mere title, "Whose Pharaohs? Modern Sons of Pharaohs?", challenges your conclusion. Muslims consider themselves Sons of the Pharaohs. Egyptology is not even studied on a wide basis like Europe and the US. Egyptologists do not believe there even is a descendant of Pharaohs.
Put another way:
Who are the early christians? The Jewish followers of a Jewish rabbi.
Who are the descendants of the early christians? Modern Christians.
If by association the modern Copts are descendants of the Pharaohs because both the Pharaohs and the modern Copts are inhabitants of Egypt, then by that same logic, both the early Christians and the modern Christians are Jewish followers of a Jewish rabbi. Sorry to inform you. I am not Jewish.
Circumstantial conclusions can never equate to fact. Fact can withstand and defend itself against contradictory external evidence. Circumstantial conclusion cannot. Seeing a person holding a bloody knife does not equate to the conclusion that this person is a murder. Why? Because this is a circumstantial conclusion. It will not withstand external (and often contradictory) evidence. DNA testing with a victim's DNA on the same bloody knife often equates to the conclusion that this person is a murder. It now becomes fact.
If the only evidence that Coptic Church music is Pharaonic is circumstantial, then no one can say for a fact that Coptic music is Pharaonic. SWMSANMG is actually corroborating my argument. If Ragheb Moftah changes his claim on which hymn M. Mikhail received from El-Minya, how can one claim there is a source for every hymn in our Church? He cannot defend his own claim against external evidence. If we can't find the source of contemporary hymns (those introduced in the 20th century), how can we conclude as fact that Coptic music is Pharaonic? Maybe Muslim Music is Pharaonic? Maybe Um Kalthoum is Pharanoic? Maybe there is no such thing as Pharaonic descent?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13237.msg155124#msg155124 date=1335881753]
Who are the Pharoahs? They are the early inhabitants of Egypt.
Who are the descendants of Pharaoh? The modern Copts.
Every nation has a folklore, culture and a certain way of composing musing and singing songs. It is true that we cannot link a certain hymn to an old Pharaonic one. But we can say for a fat that the kind of music used in the Coptic Church is linked to the Pharoanic times.
Look at this book.. It's mere title, "Whose Pharaohs? Modern Sons of Pharaohs?", challenges your conclusion. Muslims consider themselves Sons of the Pharaohs. Egyptology is not even studied on a wide basis like Europe and the US. Egyptologists do not believe there even is a descendant of Pharaohs.
Put another way:
Who are the early christians? The Jewish followers of a Jewish rabbi.
Who are the descendants of the early christians? Modern Christians.
If by association the modern Copts are descendants of the Pharaohs because both the Pharaohs and the modern Copts are inhabitants of Egypt, then by that same logic, both the early Christians and the modern Christians are Jewish followers of a Jewish rabbi. Sorry to inform you. I am not Jewish.
Circumstantial conclusions can never equate to fact. Fact can withstand and defend itself against contradictory external evidence. Circumstantial conclusion cannot. Seeing a person holding a bloody knife does not equate to the conclusion that this person is a murder. Why? Because this is a circumstantial conclusion. It will not withstand external (and often contradictory) evidence. DNA testing with a victim's DNA on the same bloody knife often equates to the conclusion that this person is a murder. It now becomes fact.
If the only evidence that Coptic Church music is Pharaonic is circumstantial, then no one can say for a fact that Coptic music is Pharaonic. SWMSANMG is actually corroborating my argument. If Ragheb Moftah changes his claim on which hymn M. Mikhail received from El-Minya, how can one claim there is a source for every hymn in our Church? He cannot defend his own claim against external evidence. If we can't find the source of contemporary hymns (those introduced in the 20th century), how can we conclude as fact that Coptic music is Pharaonic? Maybe Muslim Music is Pharaonic? Maybe Um Kalthoum is Pharanoic? Maybe there is no such thing as Pharaonic descent?
You argument is flawed because you mix religion with ethnicity.
Habitation of a land and religious affiliation do not equate to each other. Religious affiliation does not reveal ethnicity or vice versa.
Having said that, Copts are the true descendants of the Pharoahs, whether they are Muslims or Christians. Much of the Egyptian culture has extension to the Pharaonic era.
Every Church has its own culture and music that extend to its ethnic background. Why is so strange to say the Coptic hymns are rooted in the Pharoanic culture.
If not Pharaonic, then what else? European? Asian?
We know from history that the School of Alexandria had scholars who composed hymns among whom are Dydimus and Clement.
I am positive that when Christianity started to spread, the Church did borrow its music from existing music, or composed new music that had existing musical notes. Otherwise, converts would not have accepted it.
This is natural. Please, do not over complicate the issue.
You argument is flawed because you mix religion with ethnicity.
If there is no mixing religion with ethnicity, is Coptic alhan exclusively religious and non-ethnic? Or is Coptic alhan exclusively ethnic and non-religious?
In conjunction, is Pharaonic music exclusively religious and non-ethnic? Or is Pharaonic music exclusively ethnic and non-religious? True. But the topic at hand is Coptic religious music and how it relates to the Pharaonic religious music. It is not strange to say Coptic hymns are rooted in the Pharaonic culture. However, without evidence, it is no more valid to say Coptic hymns are rooted in Pharaonic culture than it is to say Coptic hymns are rooted in Islam or Coptic hymns are rooted in Middle Eastern Arabic music.
Let me quote an opinion I found in an online blog. It nicely summarizes what I've been saying:
"It is with such paradoxical emotion that I admit that I, as an Egyptian, am a descendant of the ancient Pharaohs. The obvious and undeniable feeling that fills me whenever this subject arises is pride…even arrogance that someone among my very early ancestors might have been one of these great creatures....
The truth is the Egyptians today are in denial. They have totally depended on the achievements of the Pharaohs and apparently think that just by existing they could inherit the Pharaohs’ identity. When they should really realize that no matter how much the Pharaoh’s have achieved, or how much they impressed the world, the Pharaohs ceased to exist many thousand years ago, and they do not exist through today’s Egyptians....
The Egyptian mentality today is actually defective. The Pharaohs had to work extremely hard for what they achieved. Therefore it is totally unfair for their lazy, unappreciative descendants, us – including me – to get the credit, especially that we could barely take care of their legacy and culture.....
If you ask a person what is special about being an Egyptian I bet you “the Pharaohs” will be among the top 5 answers. How sad is it that the one of the top five best things about being an Egyptian is something that we were at least four thousand years ago?
So in respect to them, let’s not label ourselves pharaohs till we deserve the name…OR…let us resurrect their spirit in our achievements, let us restore their legacy and breath new life into what they started and we killed…hope… The Pharaohs were great people living in a great and prosperous time…we are the furthest thing from that"
Stating that Coptic music comes from Pharaonic music, without any evidence, is like claiming African Americans are the modern sons of Last Chinese Dynasty. Sure they might be some evidence to claim similarities. But you can't claim a direct causal relationship when two things are so far apart. In addition, as the blog stated, if the modern sons of the Pharaohs don't preserve their Pharaonic monuments, temples, language, religion, and holidays, then they cease being Pharaonic.
It is both.
My pride comes from the fact that I am a Christian born in the Coptic Church who has a great heritage.
Your arguments here sound like those you presented in the OB discussions; plenty of evidence that you brush off.
The Pharaohs lived in Egypt, the population largely remained intact until the Arab Invasion.
Since we know that any open Islamic converts to Christianity are killed, then those who are still Christian must be (mostly) descendants of the Pharaohs.
This means nothing, and I reject such arrogance, but that doesn't mean we should deny the evidence for the truth.
How is it possible not to be descendants of the Pharaohs?
The Pharaohs lived in Egypt, the population largely remained intact until the Arab Invasion.
Since we know that any open Islamic converts to Christianity are killed, then those who are still Christian must be (mostly) descendants of the Pharaohs.
This means nothing, and I reject such arrogance, but that doesn't mean we should deny the evidence for the truth.
Thanks qawe.
To add to this is that 95% of the Muslims are Copts because only several hundred thousands ever came from the Arab peninsula to live in Egypt.
How is it possible not to be descendants of the Pharaohs?
If you think otherwise, it is only in your head.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy#Position_of_modern_scholarship