[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=13302.msg155491#msg155491 date=1336956063] I personally have never heard that you can sing them in the 50s. its only for the three major nightly feasts Christmas, Easter, and what else?
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13302.msg155496#msg155496 date=1336961852] [quote author=christ_rose link=topic=13302.msg155491#msg155491 date=1336956063] I personally have never heard that you can sing them in the 50s. its only for the three major nightly feasts Christmas, Easter, and what else?
The reason it is done on those three feasts is that their liturgies are done at night in which there is no matins prayers.....but the morning doxology must be said. so the morning doxology is mixed into matins. best example is bright saturday: in the verses of cymbals, the first 10 parts of the morning doxology and later on the rest is said (in normal annual tune).
First i'd like to say that the seven tunes, which I'd rather call Seven Ways, refers more to how the the morning doxology is said than what of it is said.....
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=13302.msg155505#msg155505 date=1336979904] Ekhrestos anesty According to the correct rites seven tunes is said on bright Saturday.. Oujai
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=13302.msg155509#msg155509 date=1337016717] I believe the entire Seven Tunes are chanted on Bright Saturday. It is only the abbreviated set that is done to the usual time constraints. show me a source.
As for the Seven Tunes, I think it is a better translation than the Seven Ways. I think "Seven Ways" is a literal translation. In the Arabic I would expect that the paranthetical [Tunes] is implied. Because, they are borrowed from seven different tunes of seven different chants in the church.
It is written in the footnotes of the Khidmat El Shammas from Maktabat El-Mahaba (printing) and also from the Book of Psalmody from the same as well as in a list of Paschal Books that have been printed.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=13302.msg155519#msg155519 date=1337024090] It is written in the footnotes of the Khidmat El Shammas from Maktabat El-Mahaba (printing) and also from the Book of Psalmody from the same as well as in a list of Paschal Books that have been printed.
I will check some psalmodies i have home for this footnote.
I don't believe it would make sense to pray the Seven Tunes on Bright Saturday. I also feel like some of the footnotes or rules of when things are said have some variation to them.
P. 267: Ama fi el a'yad el sayediya wa fi tarteeb sahrit sabt el-farah tukal ba'd salat el shokr fi rafe' bokhor bakr eela akhr rob'e hiten no-evkhi be tareekat el farah. Wa min awil rob'e pi-ooini ila akhr rob'e khen hanepsalmos tukal bi-tareekat al sabaa tara-ek, ba'd ushiyat al-marda...
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=13302.msg155545#msg155545 date=1337041117] Nahdat El kaneesa. It is an old printing from the 70's that I have here at this house. i believe i have a version of that book. the other i have that i use as a source is the Baramous one.
According to HCOC, Deacon Albair Mikhail affirms in Lesson 1 of teaching the Seven Ways that it is only to be chanted on the three major evening feasts; Feasts of Nativity, Epiphany, and Resurrection.
Ekhrestos anesty I was taught like ilovesaintmark states.. as for we don't say anything joyful during the apocalypse night, the correct rites say that we say half the psalm joyful on Maundy Thursday and nobody cares... HOWEVER, in bold letters, many people refer to the liturgy of the resurrection feast as "sabt el fara7" and to the apocalypse night as "sabt el noor".. I'm not sure nahdet el kanayes publications use these expressions, but maybe, just maybe, that's what it is... Oujai
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=13302.msg155568#msg155568 date=1337068772] Ekhrestos anesty I was taught like ilovesaintmark states.. as for we don't say anything joyful during the apocalypse night, the correct rites say that we say half the psalm joyful on Maundy Thursday and nobody cares... nope. the correct rite of bright saturday, ONLY IN THE READINGS and not everything, is half sorrowful half ANNUAL. The sherat is said in the annual tune. the psali is said in the annual tune. the doxologies are so to. No festive things until the midnight praise of Easter liturgy. as for Covenant Thursday, unlike bright saturday, it is a Minor feast of the Lord. atleast some parts are prayed in festive tunes. Nahdet el-kanaies books says the psalm is half festive half annual (or maybe the other way around) and albair says that the synod changes that to fully annual. a friend still said it half and half this past holy week.
HOWEVER, in bold letters, many people refer to the liturgy of the resurrection feast as "sabt el fara7" and to the apocalypse night as "sabt el noor".. I'm not sure nahdet el kanayes publications use these expressions, but maybe, just maybe, that's what it is... Oujai
bright saturday is neither called bright or joyous in nahdet elkanaies book. it is actuialy referred to as Qodas el-fes7 or 'eed el-fes7 (liturgy of the pass over). Bright and Joyous, referring to that saturday are used interchangeably now. I think joyous is more authentic while bright refers to the miracles of the coming out of the light from the tomb of Christ that day in the holy city.....which is testified to in the senixar.
<c anecty You didn't get my point with regards second statement. The footnote is not the same as the titles of the other rites, and I know that, but some people call the Resurrection Feast "sabt el fara7". I guess that is what is mentioned in that footnote in khedmet el shammas, and the psalmody. I will check again later anyway... ilovesaintmark will be able to shed more light on that I guess Oujai qen `P[C
So, The psalmody of Ekladious Labib, the version i am looking at was printed 1908, it doesn't have any footnotes. The psalmody of Abouna Mina elmahalawee el baramousi, also printed 1908, it doesn't have any footnotes. The psalmody of Nahdet elkanaies, the version i am looking at was printed 1995, say what you said ILSM. The psalmody of Elbaramous, the newest version, which is also based on Abouna Mina elmahalawee version, says the seven ways are said only the feasts and on bright saturday they are said in the sameset up of paragraphs but in the annual tune.
one things that is different in both versions that include a footnote is that they say that the seven tunes are said in the Feasts of the Lords.....which really refers to all 14 feasts, minor and major.....atleast in our understanding today.
Ask CIA when he is at the Convention, and let us know.
Or, I may have the chance to have him over for a day as I did last year (yes, I am showing off), and I will ask him--personally--and let everyone know. BTW, he is really a gracious and nice guy. I just can't stand the cult that is wrapped around him.
P.S.: When he came over, there were no cult members or friends over. It was just a wonderful time talking about the history in the Era of Pope Shenouda--the three of us. We did not talk chants or hymns. I did not quiz him or pester him. It was really nice to see the development of certain matters as a perspective from both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. We even discussed the differences in the making of different pastas.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=13302.msg155591#msg155591 date=1337131986] Ask CIA when he is at the Convention, and let us know.
I think he made himself clear in his bright saturday recording. And i trust him in those. in fact, i take some of his teachings the the bright saturday book we are publishing. the Sabeho, magedo hymn, the third hoos read and than chanted, the praxis response.......
Or, I may have the chance to have him over for a day as I did last year (yes, I am showing off), and I will ask him--personally--and let everyone know. BTW, he is really a gracious and nice guy. I just can't stand the cult that is wrapped around him.
it would only be nice of you if you can invite me to.....now that i am graduated and school free...OFFICIALLY AT LAST!!!!
P.S.: When he came over, there were no cult members or friends over. It was just a wonderful time talking about the history in the Era of Pope Shenouda--the three of us. We did not talk chants or hymns. I did not quiz him or pester him. It was really nice to see the development of certain matters as a perspective from both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. We even discussed the differences in the making of different pastas. P.S.S.: Have I made you jealous yet, Minagir?
yes....to death......i am not saying i am not grateful for the time i spent with him when he was here, either in the convention, or west side church, or else where......i would just want to be with him and hear his social talk. i think those who speak with him about hymns and rites are just wasting their time and his. i believe he makes himself clear enough in his recordings that all we have to do is trust him.
Comments
I personally have never heard that you can sing them in the 50s. its only for the three major nightly feasts
Christmas, Easter, and what else?
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=13302.msg155491#msg155491 date=1336956063]
I personally have never heard that you can sing them in the 50s. its only for the three major nightly feasts
Christmas, Easter, and what else?
Epiphany.
According to the correct rites seven tunes is said on bright Saturday..
Oujai
I believe the entire Seven Tunes are chanted on Bright Saturday. It is only the abbreviated set that is done to the usual time constraints.
The O.D. is O.K.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=13302.msg155505#msg155505 date=1336979904]
Ekhrestos anesty
According to the correct rites seven tunes is said on bright Saturday..
Oujai
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=13302.msg155509#msg155509 date=1337016717]
I believe the entire Seven Tunes are chanted on Bright Saturday. It is only the abbreviated set that is done to the usual time constraints.
show me a source. i don't get it.....
As for the Seven Tunes, I think it is a better translation than the Seven Ways. I think "Seven Ways" is a literal translation. In the Arabic I would expect that the paranthetical [Tunes] is implied. Because, they are borrowed from seven different tunes of seven different chants in the church.
It is written in the footnotes of the Khidmat El Shammas from Maktabat El-Mahaba (printing) and also from the Book of Psalmody from the same as well as in a list of Paschal Books that have been printed.
It is written in the footnotes of the Khidmat El Shammas from Maktabat El-Mahaba (printing) and also from the Book of Psalmody from the same as well as in a list of Paschal Books that have been printed.
I will check some psalmodies i have home for this footnote.
Nahdat El kaneesa. It is an old printing from the 70's that I have here at this house.
i believe i have a version of that book. the other i have that i use as a source is the Baramous one.
I was taught like ilovesaintmark states.. as for we don't say anything joyful during the apocalypse night, the correct rites say that we say half the psalm joyful on Maundy Thursday and nobody cares...
HOWEVER, in bold letters, many people refer to the liturgy of the resurrection feast as "sabt el fara7" and to the apocalypse night as "sabt el noor".. I'm not sure nahdet el kanayes publications use these expressions, but maybe, just maybe, that's what it is...
Oujai
Ekhrestos anesty
I was taught like ilovesaintmark states.. as for we don't say anything joyful during the apocalypse night, the correct rites say that we say half the psalm joyful on Maundy Thursday and nobody cares...
nope. the correct rite of bright saturday, ONLY IN THE READINGS and not everything, is half sorrowful half ANNUAL. The sherat is said in the annual tune. the psali is said in the annual tune. the doxologies are so to. No festive things until the midnight praise of Easter liturgy.
as for Covenant Thursday, unlike bright saturday, it is a Minor feast of the Lord. atleast some parts are prayed in festive tunes. Nahdet el-kanaies books says the psalm is half festive half annual (or maybe the other way around) and albair says that the synod changes that to fully annual. a friend still said it half and half this past holy week.
HOWEVER, in bold letters, many people refer to the liturgy of the resurrection feast as "sabt el fara7" and to the apocalypse night as "sabt el noor".. I'm not sure nahdet el kanayes publications use these expressions, but maybe, just maybe, that's what it is...
Oujai
bright saturday is neither called bright or joyous in nahdet elkanaies book. it is actuialy referred to as Qodas el-fes7 or 'eed el-fes7 (liturgy of the pass over). Bright and Joyous, referring to that saturday are used interchangeably now. I think joyous is more authentic while bright refers to the miracles of the coming out of the light from the tomb of Christ that day in the holy city.....which is testified to in the senixar.
You didn't get my point with regards second statement. The footnote is not the same as the titles of the other rites, and I know that, but some people call the Resurrection Feast "sabt el fara7". I guess that is what is mentioned in that footnote in khedmet el shammas, and the psalmody. I will check again later anyway... ilovesaintmark will be able to shed more light on that I guess
Oujai qen `P[C
The clarification comes from the use "sahrit" = vigil, which would not be the Resurrection Matins.
Very good point ilovesaintmark..
Oujai
The psalmody of Ekladious Labib, the version i am looking at was printed 1908, it doesn't have any footnotes.
The psalmody of Abouna Mina elmahalawee el baramousi, also printed 1908, it doesn't have any footnotes.
The psalmody of Nahdet elkanaies, the version i am looking at was printed 1995, say what you said ILSM.
The psalmody of Elbaramous, the newest version, which is also based on Abouna Mina elmahalawee version, says the seven ways are said only the feasts and on bright saturday they are said in the sameset up of paragraphs but in the annual tune.
one things that is different in both versions that include a footnote is that they say that the seven tunes are said in the Feasts of the Lords.....which really refers to all 14 feasts, minor and major.....atleast in our understanding today.
Or, I may have the chance to have him over for a day as I did last year (yes, I am showing off), and I will ask him--personally--and let everyone know.
BTW, he is really a gracious and nice guy. I just can't stand the cult that is wrapped around him.
P.S.: When he came over, there were no cult members or friends over. It was just a wonderful time talking about the history in the Era of Pope Shenouda--the three of us. We did not talk chants or hymns. I did not quiz him or pester him. It was really nice to see the development of certain matters as a perspective from both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. We even discussed the differences in the making of different pastas.
P.S.S.: Have I made you jealous yet, Minagir?
What "cult" are you talking about?
Ask CIA when he is at the Convention, and let us know.
I think he made himself clear in his bright saturday recording. And i trust him in those. in fact, i take some of his teachings the the bright saturday book we are publishing. the Sabeho, magedo hymn, the third hoos read and than chanted, the praxis response....... it would only be nice of you if you can invite me to.....now that i am graduated and school free...OFFICIALLY AT LAST!!!! yes....to death......i am not saying i am not grateful for the time i spent with him when he was here, either in the convention, or west side church, or else where......i would just want to be with him and hear his social talk. i think those who speak with him about hymns and rites are just wasting their time and his. i believe he makes himself clear enough in his recordings that all we have to do is trust him.