The priest wears a stole, which is a single piece of material draped across the shoulders, falling down at front. Unfortunately, the two front pieces have today been made into one piece, so its structure is obscured. They should just clasp together to keep them in place. This symbolized pastorally carrying the weight of the community on his shoulders. It marks him as the leader/servant of the community. Sadly may priests do not wear it today, though it is an indispensable part of the priestly vestments. An argument could be made for the practice of taking it off in the presence of the bishop. But when officiating alone, a priest should not shirk the sign of his authority--and servitude.
The deacon's stole and the subdeacon's stole are derived from the priests stole, as they share in his service. The deacon wears it over one shoulder, draping down at front and back. The subdeacon wears it crossed at the back, with both sides draping down at front.
Commonly readers wear subdeacons' stoles since they have largely assumed their role in the absence of deacons and subdeacons. The norm of the parish should generally be followed here, either way.
Unfortunately many chanters and readers wear full deacons' stoles, and many chanters wear full deacons' or subdeacons' stoles. These are confusions.
I don't think it's confusion. It's people's desire to have a higher rank in church. There's men in my church who where them and dont know a single hymn.
[quote author=kahraba13 link=topic=13387.msg156545#msg156545 date=1339334333] can some one please explain the point of wearing a batrassheen and the meaning behind the H on the front and X at the back and what they mean.
The sub deacon, is supposed to wear the badrasheel as a 'H'. However, only the deacon (diakon) of the church should wear it on one shoulder.
Well, i am a reader and i understand the 'X' that the batrasheel makes on ones back symbolises carrying the cross during ones services and the front comes around as a belt which symbolises that you are preparing yourself for service, as John The Baptist and Jesus both did..
The Bishop takes scissors and makes five small cuts in his hair, in the sign of the cross, starting from the middle of his head. While clipping, the bishop says, “...(name), Ognostis for the church ...(name of parish) ...” what if this Oghnostos is bald? lol what does the bishop do then.?
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13387.msg156557#msg156557 date=1339365443] I don't think it's confusion. It's people's desire to have a higher rank in church. There's men in my church who where them and dont know a single hymn.
Don't always assume the worst in people.
Most of the time, it is because they feel it looks better so they wear it like that. Not many people know what it represents or what rank it is for.
[quote author=geomike link=topic=13387.msg156602#msg156602 date=1339436903] [quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13387.msg156557#msg156557 date=1339365443] I don't think it's confusion. It's people's desire to have a higher rank in church. There's men in my church who where them and dont know a single hymn.
Don't always assume the worst in people.
Most of the time, it is because they feel it looks better so they wear it like that. Not many people know what it represents or what rank it is for. Sadly it's the truth and you're right. The fact that people want to look good in church is ridiculous. Youre taking the attention of the people, which should be focused on the Eucharist, and having them look at you.
If you don't know what rank it's for, then don't wear it.
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13387.msg156607#msg156607 date=1339441051] [quote author=geomike link=topic=13387.msg156602#msg156602 date=1339436903] [quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13387.msg156557#msg156557 date=1339365443] I don't think it's confusion. It's people's desire to have a higher rank in church. There's men in my church who where them and dont know a single hymn.
Don't always assume the worst in people.
Most of the time, it is because they feel it looks better so they wear it like that. Not many people know what it represents or what rank it is for. Sadly it's the truth and you're right. The fact that people want to look good in church is ridiculous. Youre taking the attention of the people, which should be focused on the Eucharist, and having them look at you.
If you don't know what rank it's for, then don't wear it.
The issue is that this is how they are "taught". It's not their fault most of the time. Honestly, i don't wear one because i am an epsaltos, but it wouldn't make a difference if i wore a badrasheel over my right shoulder because I am in the altar when it isn't fitting for my rank, I read the Katemarous when it isn't in my rank description, etc... We are getting upset over the way a badrasheel is worn and we are forgetting that it doesn't really matter since we are doing everything those higher ranks do anyway.
[quote author=markmarcos link=topic=13387.msg156586#msg156586 date=1339390283] The Bishop takes scissors and makes five small cuts in his hair, in the sign of the cross, starting from the middle of his head. While clipping, the bishop says, “...(name), Ognostis for the church ...(name of parish) ...” what if this Oghnostos is bald? lol what does the bishop do then.?
[quote author=markmarcos link=topic=13387.msg156618#msg156618 date=1339448983] [quote author=markmarcos link=topic=13387.msg156586#msg156586 date=1339390283] The Bishop takes scissors and makes five small cuts in his hair, in the sign of the cross, starting from the middle of his head. While clipping, the bishop says, “...(name), Ognostis for the church ...(name of parish) ...” what if this Oghnostos is bald? lol what does the bishop do then.?
[quote author=drilago99 link=topic=13387.msg156624#msg156624 date=1339452331] [quote author=markmarcos link=topic=13387.msg156618#msg156618 date=1339448983] [quote author=markmarcos link=topic=13387.msg156586#msg156586 date=1339390283] The Bishop takes scissors and makes five small cuts in his hair, in the sign of the cross, starting from the middle of his head. While clipping, the bishop says, “...(name), Ognostis for the church ...(name of parish) ...” what if this Oghnostos is bald? lol what does the bishop do then.?
More importantly, what is the meaning of the cutting of the hair in Oghnostos ordination?
Wow.....but sayenda was being nice to the, atleast most of them (not the guy at 20:10). I remember when he ordained me, he was being nice to me....but not to some other guys (like one guy who decided to still do his hair with gel and everything). And sayedna LOVES makes the cross marks deep.
@ Drilago99 what is the meaning of the cutting of the hair in Oghnostos ordination?
Clipping of the hair signifies the cutting off, or the removal all evil thoughts and habits (for the head seats the senses).
Clipping the hair in the shape of a cross, while the bishop mentions the Holy Trinity is proof of the graces and talents that the deacon receives from the Holy Trinity by the worthiness of Christ’s death on the cross.
The five crosses (hair clippings) symbolize the five wounds of Christ the Lord: the three nails, the crown of thorns, and the spear wound in His side. It is as I the deacon proclaims, “That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death” (Philippians 3:10).
The bishop clips the hair of each Ognostis, in the shape of five small crosses, whilst saying the three ‘blessings’ of the Holy Trinity. After completing this, all the newly ordained Ognostis stand in order to hear the prayers and the commandments given them.
The issue is that this is how they are "taught". It's not their fault most of the time. Honestly, i don't wear one because i am an epsaltos, but it wouldn't make a difference if i wore a badrasheel over my right shoulder because I am in the altar when it isn't fitting for my rank, I read the Katemarous when it isn't in my rank description, etc... We are getting upset over the way a badrasheel is worn and we are forgetting that it doesn't really matter since we are doing everything those higher ranks do anyway.
Thats what I always heard. The church lets us wear it like that because were almost always doing their jobs.
If you are not ordained to a rank then you should not dress as if you were.
To be asked to step in and perform some service because there is a need is acceptable and part of the service required of us all, but to dress as if we were some other rank is not acceptable.
Sometimes I am asked to represent my bishop at an event or meeting, he gives me a delegated responsibility and authority for some particular task, but it does not mean I can dress like a bishop. It really does matter that we vest as we should according to our rank, otherwise the order of the Church breaks down, as it often has done.
A man should know he is a Reader and do all that he is instructed to do by the Subdeacons, and a Subdeacon should serve the Deacon with attention, and the Deacon should ensure that the Priest does not have to worry about anything. If there is no Deacon then a Subdeacon must step up to the plate with an even greater sense of his unworthiness to stand in the place of a Deacon, but he should not dress as a Deacon, nor a Reader who is called because of need to serve as a Subdeacon, dress as a Subdeacon.
In all things there must be order. This is the teaching of the very earliest Fathers, and even the Apostles themselves.
This is not to blame young boys. It is the responsibility of the bishop, the priest and the deacon to ensure that there is order in all things. Even the order of receiving communion is governed by the wise teaching of the Church so that order is respected.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=13387.msg156639#msg156639 date=1339484859] If you are not ordained to a rank then you should not dress as if you were.
EXACTLY!!! This is what i believe, if we CANNOT follow the simplest of rules, suck as "dress" budrashel, than how are supposed to be able to follow the more difficult ones. If i can't carry a a 20-bound-bag, i simply will not be able to carry a 30 bound.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=13387.msg156639#msg156639 date=1339484859] If you are not ordained to a rank then you should not dress as if you were.
To be asked to step in and perform some service because there is a need is acceptable and part of the service required of us all, but to dress as if we were some other rank is not acceptable.
Sometimes I am asked to represent my bishop at an event or meeting, he gives me a delegated responsibility and authority for some particular task, but it does not mean I can dress like a bishop. It really does matter that we vest as we should according to our rank, otherwise the order of the Church breaks down, as it often has done.
A man should know he is a Reader and do all that he is instructed to do by the Subdeacons, and a Subdeacon should serve the Deacon with attention, and the Deacon should ensure that the Priest does not have to worry about anything. If there is no Deacon then a Subdeacon must step up to the plate with an even greater sense of his unworthiness to stand in the place of a Deacon, but he should not dress as a Deacon, nor a Reader who is called because of need to serve as a Subdeacon, dress as a Subdeacon.
In all things there must be order. This is the teaching of the very earliest Fathers, and even the Apostles themselves.
This is not to blame young boys. It is the responsibility of the bishop, the priest and the deacon to ensure that there is order in all things. Even the order of receiving communion is governed by the wise teaching of the Church so that order is respected.
Of course I agree with you. But the fact is that some of these traditions do change over time. At this point in time, it is widely believed that the chanter does not wear a stole, while the reader does wear a stole crossed at the back. Of course what is being described for the reader is actually the way a subdeacon dresses, and both the reader and the chanter should not be wearing any stole at all. But, now that this is the common understanding, and many priests require their readers to wear the stole, perhaps it can be seen as an evolution in the style of dress in response to the extinction of deacons. Even in the EO church, many bishops bless some of their readers to wear the subdeacon's stole and perform the duties of subdeacons, since they don't want to ordain them subdeacons and place a canonical impediment to marriage upon them. While it hasn't been an orderly, conscious decision like that in the Coptic Church, if the norm in a region is for readers to dress as subdeacons, perhaps that is ok.
At my Church everyone wore a stole randomly. One chanter stopped wearing his stole, and people were upset with him for not dressing properly. He asked the priest what to do, and the priest asked him to just obey the older "deacons" for the sake of love and unity, so he unhappily went back to wearing it. So I just didn't ask out priest and didn't wear it. I looked weird for a long time. Eventually a few guys joined, and within a few years almost none of the chanters were wearing stoles (just one or two still do). All the young readers now wear the stole like a subdeacon, and the older readers randomly wear it like either a subdeacon or a deacon. I think this is pretty good progress in improved order, even if it isn't ideal. Then one year I wore a white stole for the Holy 50 like we're supposed to, and they guys, in all seriousness, asked if it was because I'm white. Now over a dozen of the so-called deacons wear white, and one of the two priests. We only have one or two uncles who still wear gold stoles on Great Friday.
I don't think we're going to achieve perfect order from the bottom up, just a start, then it's up to the priests. When I was a chanter, I visited one Church, and did not wear a stole like usual. The priest made me put on a subdeacon's stole, because the priests there don't bother wearing stoles, and since I had a beard at the time, I looked like one of them... Kind of backwards to have to dress as a subdeacon while a chanter so as not to be confused with the priests who are dressed as chanters...
Lol! It's not so much the dressing incorrectly which gets me, rather the wide variety of vesting. And seeing priests not vested properly. I wouldn't mind so much if there were just some order, whatever it is.
I would really like to see the true Diaconate properly reconstituted. Having proper deacons, spiritually and in terms of praxis, seems to me to be necessary to the proper life of a congregation.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=13387.msg156647#msg156647 date=1339505588] I would really like to see the true Diaconate properly reconstituted. Having proper deacons, spiritually and in terms of praxis, seems to me to be necessary to the proper life of a congregation.
[quote author=Monasticsx link=topic=13387.msg156654#msg156654 date=1339523096] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=13387.msg156647#msg156647 date=1339505588] I would really like to see the true Diaconate properly reconstituted. Having proper deacons, spiritually and in terms of praxis, seems to me to be necessary to the proper life of a congregation.
We all hope and pray...
Amen
[quote author=Amdah link=topic=13387.msg156665#msg156665 date=1339535711] Could someone point out all the colors that should be worn and when Thanks
Red is during annual days. White is during Joyful days. Black is during Great Friday and Funerals.
[quote author=Amdah link=topic=13387.msg156667#msg156667 date=1339537165] So would the yellow ones be equal to the white ones? Also do priests follow these colors too?
It's pretty confused :) There are times when it is not clear which to wear:
-Gold is Joyful (the Feasts of the Lord except during the Holy 50, the Feasts of the Cross...). But it is probably also for Sundays, and possibly Saturdays during annual time. -Red is for weekdays during annual time. It may also be for on Saturdays and Sundays during Lent. -White is for the Holy 50, including Resurrection, Ascension, and Pentecost -Black or dark blue is for funerals (outside the Holy 50, which it would be white) and Great Friday -Green is probably for Koiak.
Yes, the priests and the deacons should be wearing the same colour (unless the priest wears the full set of colours and the deacons only wear stoles with read and gold all the time, except for blue on great Friday/funerals). Generally the deacons should never out-do the priest by wearing the full set of colours if the priest does not. But I ignore that for fun. When the curtains are a different colour, the vestments should match (white for Holy 50, black for Great Friday) The tonia/tunic is always white. The colours apply only to the stole, and the embroidery on the tonia.
The colours became more elaborate over time, and then generally simplified so that most aren't followed today. It probably also varied from region to region. It isn't set in stone, and the common practise of the parish should be followed uniformly, unless you're a trouble maker like me.
[quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13387.msg156671#msg156671 date=1339542826] [quote author=Amdah link=topic=13387.msg156667#msg156667 date=1339537165] So would the yellow ones be equal to the white ones? Also do priests follow these colors too?
It's pretty confused :) There are times when it is not clear which to wear:
-Gold is Joyful (the Feasts of the Lord except during the Holy 50, the Feasts of the Cross...). But it is probably also for Sundays, and possibly Saturdays during annual time. -Red is for weekdays during annual time. It may also be for on Saturdays and Sundays during Lent. -White is for the Holy 50, including Resurrection, Ascension, and Pentecost -Black or dark blue is for funerals (outside the Holy 50, which it would be white) and Great Friday -Green is probably for Koiak.
So many colours!! Are these actually followed in any of your churches?
[quote author=Monasticsx link=topic=13387.msg156672#msg156672 date=1339543188] [quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13387.msg156671#msg156671 date=1339542826] [quote author=Amdah link=topic=13387.msg156667#msg156667 date=1339537165] So would the yellow ones be equal to the white ones? Also do priests follow these colors too?
It's pretty confused :) There are times when it is not clear which to wear:
-Gold is Joyful (the Feasts of the Lord except during the Holy 50, the Feasts of the Cross...). But it is probably also for Sundays, and possibly Saturdays during annual time. -Red is for weekdays during annual time. It may also be for on Saturdays and Sundays during Lent. -White is for the Holy 50, including Resurrection, Ascension, and Pentecost -Black or dark blue is for funerals (outside the Holy 50, which it would be white) and Great Friday -Green is probably for Koiak.
So many colours!! Are these actually followed in any of your churches?
We do not have the Gold. In my church gold and white are the same thing. I also have never seen green before.
[quote author=Monasticsx link=topic=13387.msg156672#msg156672 date=1339543188] [quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13387.msg156671#msg156671 date=1339542826] [quote author=Amdah link=topic=13387.msg156667#msg156667 date=1339537165] So would the yellow ones be equal to the white ones? Also do priests follow these colors too?
It's pretty confused :) There are times when it is not clear which to wear:
-Gold is Joyful (the Feasts of the Lord except during the Holy 50, the Feasts of the Cross...). But it is probably also for Sundays, and possibly Saturdays during annual time. -Red is for weekdays during annual time. It may also be for on Saturdays and Sundays during Lent. -White is for the Holy 50, including Resurrection, Ascension, and Pentecost -Black or dark blue is for funerals (outside the Holy 50, which it would be white) and Great Friday -Green is probably for Koiak.
So many colours!! Are these actually followed in any of your churches?
The leading deacon wears all of them. I used to. A couple other people do. About a dozen wear all but green. Adding a few more white ones each year slowly. One of our priests uses gold/red/black, the other white as well. I've seen green vestments in other churches too, just not during koiak, either worn randomly by people who just wear whatever colour, or for Palm Sunday.
sorry to bring this up again, but are there any sources for these colors because I may go to egypt this summer and I want to get all this stuff but I want to be sure. I tried looking online but found nothing. Anything would be greatly appreciated, thanks :)
Comments
The deacon's stole and the subdeacon's stole are derived from the priests stole, as they share in his service. The deacon wears it over one shoulder, draping down at front and back. The subdeacon wears it crossed at the back, with both sides draping down at front.
Commonly readers wear subdeacons' stoles since they have largely assumed their role in the absence of deacons and subdeacons. The norm of the parish should generally be followed here, either way.
Unfortunately many chanters and readers wear full deacons' stoles, and many chanters wear full deacons' or subdeacons' stoles. These are confusions.
can some one please explain the point of wearing a batrassheen and the meaning behind the H on the front and X at the back and what they mean.
The sub deacon, is supposed to wear the badrasheel as a 'H'. However, only the deacon (diakon) of the church should wear it on one shoulder.
This is where i got it from: http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/7_priesthood.html
I don't think it's confusion. It's people's desire to have a higher rank in church. There's men in my church who where them and dont know a single hymn.
Don't always assume the worst in people.
Most of the time, it is because they feel it looks better so they wear it like that. Not many people know what it represents or what rank it is for.
What happens when someone takes it and throws it down to the ground in anger?
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13387.msg156557#msg156557 date=1339365443]
I don't think it's confusion. It's people's desire to have a higher rank in church. There's men in my church who where them and dont know a single hymn.
Don't always assume the worst in people.
Most of the time, it is because they feel it looks better so they wear it like that. Not many people know what it represents or what rank it is for.
Sadly it's the truth and you're right. The fact that people want to look good in church is ridiculous. Youre taking the attention of the people, which should be focused on the Eucharist, and having them look at you.
If you don't know what rank it's for, then don't wear it.
[quote author=geomike link=topic=13387.msg156602#msg156602 date=1339436903]
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13387.msg156557#msg156557 date=1339365443]
I don't think it's confusion. It's people's desire to have a higher rank in church. There's men in my church who where them and dont know a single hymn.
Don't always assume the worst in people.
Most of the time, it is because they feel it looks better so they wear it like that. Not many people know what it represents or what rank it is for.
Sadly it's the truth and you're right. The fact that people want to look good in church is ridiculous. Youre taking the attention of the people, which should be focused on the Eucharist, and having them look at you.
If you don't know what rank it's for, then don't wear it.
The issue is that this is how they are "taught". It's not their fault most of the time. Honestly, i don't wear one because i am an epsaltos, but it wouldn't make a difference if i wore a badrasheel over my right shoulder because I am in the altar when it isn't fitting for my rank, I read the Katemarous when it isn't in my rank description, etc... We are getting upset over the way a badrasheel is worn and we are forgetting that it doesn't really matter since we are doing everything those higher ranks do anyway.
The Bishop takes scissors and makes five small cuts in his hair, in the sign of the cross, starting from the middle of his head. While clipping, the bishop says, “...(name), Ognostis for the church ...(name of parish) ...” what if this Oghnostos is bald? lol what does the bishop do then.?
can somone answer my question ???
[quote author=markmarcos link=topic=13387.msg156586#msg156586 date=1339390283]
The Bishop takes scissors and makes five small cuts in his hair, in the sign of the cross, starting from the middle of his head. While clipping, the bishop says, “...(name), Ognostis for the church ...(name of parish) ...” what if this Oghnostos is bald? lol what does the bishop do then.?
can somone answer my question ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN6FGy4H1Qk
Forward to 16:10
Answer: They deal with it. lol.
More importantly, what is the meaning of the cutting of the hair in Oghnostos ordination?
[quote author=markmarcos link=topic=13387.msg156618#msg156618 date=1339448983]
[quote author=markmarcos link=topic=13387.msg156586#msg156586 date=1339390283]
The Bishop takes scissors and makes five small cuts in his hair, in the sign of the cross, starting from the middle of his head. While clipping, the bishop says, “...(name), Ognostis for the church ...(name of parish) ...” what if this Oghnostos is bald? lol what does the bishop do then.?
can somone answer my question ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN6FGy4H1Qk
Forward to 16:10
Answer: They deal with it. lol.
More importantly, what is the meaning of the cutting of the hair in Oghnostos ordination?
Wow.....but sayenda was being nice to the, atleast most of them (not the guy at 20:10). I remember when he ordained me, he was being nice to me....but not to some other guys (like one guy who decided to still do his hair with gel and everything). And sayedna LOVES makes the cross marks deep.
what is the meaning of the cutting of the hair in Oghnostos ordination?
Clipping of the hair signifies the cutting off, or the removal all evil thoughts and habits (for the head seats the senses).
Clipping the hair in the shape of a cross, while the bishop mentions the Holy Trinity is proof of the graces and talents that the deacon receives from the Holy Trinity by the worthiness of Christ’s death on the cross.
The five crosses (hair clippings) symbolize the five wounds of Christ the Lord: the three nails, the crown of thorns, and the spear wound in His side. It is as I the deacon proclaims, “That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death” (Philippians 3:10).
The bishop clips the hair of each Ognostis, in the shape of five small crosses, whilst saying the three ‘blessings’ of the Holy Trinity. After completing this, all the newly ordained Ognostis stand in order to hear the prayers and the commandments given them.
The issue is that this is how they are "taught". It's not their fault most of the time. Honestly, i don't wear one because i am an epsaltos, but it wouldn't make a difference if i wore a badrasheel over my right shoulder because I am in the altar when it isn't fitting for my rank, I read the Katemarous when it isn't in my rank description, etc... We are getting upset over the way a badrasheel is worn and we are forgetting that it doesn't really matter since we are doing everything those higher ranks do anyway.
Thats what I always heard. The church lets us wear it like that because were almost always doing their jobs.
To be asked to step in and perform some service because there is a need is acceptable and part of the service required of us all, but to dress as if we were some other rank is not acceptable.
Sometimes I am asked to represent my bishop at an event or meeting, he gives me a delegated responsibility and authority for some particular task, but it does not mean I can dress like a bishop. It really does matter that we vest as we should according to our rank, otherwise the order of the Church breaks down, as it often has done.
A man should know he is a Reader and do all that he is instructed to do by the Subdeacons, and a Subdeacon should serve the Deacon with attention, and the Deacon should ensure that the Priest does not have to worry about anything. If there is no Deacon then a Subdeacon must step up to the plate with an even greater sense of his unworthiness to stand in the place of a Deacon, but he should not dress as a Deacon, nor a Reader who is called because of need to serve as a Subdeacon, dress as a Subdeacon.
In all things there must be order. This is the teaching of the very earliest Fathers, and even the Apostles themselves.
This is not to blame young boys. It is the responsibility of the bishop, the priest and the deacon to ensure that there is order in all things. Even the order of receiving communion is governed by the wise teaching of the Church so that order is respected.
If you are not ordained to a rank then you should not dress as if you were.
EXACTLY!!! This is what i believe, if we CANNOT follow the simplest of rules, suck as "dress" budrashel, than how are supposed to be able to follow the more difficult ones. If i can't carry a a 20-bound-bag, i simply will not be able to carry a 30 bound.
& haahaha, that poor kid at 17:30 gets demolished! :P
If you are not ordained to a rank then you should not dress as if you were.
To be asked to step in and perform some service because there is a need is acceptable and part of the service required of us all, but to dress as if we were some other rank is not acceptable.
Sometimes I am asked to represent my bishop at an event or meeting, he gives me a delegated responsibility and authority for some particular task, but it does not mean I can dress like a bishop. It really does matter that we vest as we should according to our rank, otherwise the order of the Church breaks down, as it often has done.
A man should know he is a Reader and do all that he is instructed to do by the Subdeacons, and a Subdeacon should serve the Deacon with attention, and the Deacon should ensure that the Priest does not have to worry about anything. If there is no Deacon then a Subdeacon must step up to the plate with an even greater sense of his unworthiness to stand in the place of a Deacon, but he should not dress as a Deacon, nor a Reader who is called because of need to serve as a Subdeacon, dress as a Subdeacon.
In all things there must be order. This is the teaching of the very earliest Fathers, and even the Apostles themselves.
This is not to blame young boys. It is the responsibility of the bishop, the priest and the deacon to ensure that there is order in all things. Even the order of receiving communion is governed by the wise teaching of the Church so that order is respected.
Of course I agree with you. But the fact is that some of these traditions do change over time. At this point in time, it is widely believed that the chanter does not wear a stole, while the reader does wear a stole crossed at the back. Of course what is being described for the reader is actually the way a subdeacon dresses, and both the reader and the chanter should not be wearing any stole at all. But, now that this is the common understanding, and many priests require their readers to wear the stole, perhaps it can be seen as an evolution in the style of dress in response to the extinction of deacons. Even in the EO church, many bishops bless some of their readers to wear the subdeacon's stole and perform the duties of subdeacons, since they don't want to ordain them subdeacons and place a canonical impediment to marriage upon them. While it hasn't been an orderly, conscious decision like that in the Coptic Church, if the norm in a region is for readers to dress as subdeacons, perhaps that is ok.
At my Church everyone wore a stole randomly. One chanter stopped wearing his stole, and people were upset with him for not dressing properly. He asked the priest what to do, and the priest asked him to just obey the older "deacons" for the sake of love and unity, so he unhappily went back to wearing it. So I just didn't ask out priest and didn't wear it. I looked weird for a long time. Eventually a few guys joined, and within a few years almost none of the chanters were wearing stoles (just one or two still do). All the young readers now wear the stole like a subdeacon, and the older readers randomly wear it like either a subdeacon or a deacon. I think this is pretty good progress in improved order, even if it isn't ideal. Then one year I wore a white stole for the Holy 50 like we're supposed to, and they guys, in all seriousness, asked if it was because I'm white. Now over a dozen of the so-called deacons wear white, and one of the two priests. We only have one or two uncles who still wear gold stoles on Great Friday.
I don't think we're going to achieve perfect order from the bottom up, just a start, then it's up to the priests. When I was a chanter, I visited one Church, and did not wear a stole like usual. The priest made me put on a subdeacon's stole, because the priests there don't bother wearing stoles, and since I had a beard at the time, I looked like one of them... Kind of backwards to have to dress as a subdeacon while a chanter so as not to be confused with the priests who are dressed as chanters...
More importantly, what is the meaning of the cutting of the hair in Oghnostos ordination?
It is a variant of this ancient and universal practice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonsure
It shows/is a method of consecration to the service of the Church.
I would really like to see the true Diaconate properly reconstituted. Having proper deacons, spiritually and in terms of praxis, seems to me to be necessary to the proper life of a congregation.
I would really like to see the true Diaconate properly reconstituted. Having proper deacons, spiritually and in terms of praxis, seems to me to be necessary to the proper life of a congregation.
We all hope and pray...
Thanks
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=13387.msg156647#msg156647 date=1339505588]
I would really like to see the true Diaconate properly reconstituted. Having proper deacons, spiritually and in terms of praxis, seems to me to be necessary to the proper life of a congregation.
We all hope and pray...
Amen
[quote author=Amdah link=topic=13387.msg156665#msg156665 date=1339535711]
Could someone point out all the colors that should be worn and when
Thanks
Red is during annual days.
White is during Joyful days.
Black is during Great Friday and Funerals.
Also do priests follow these colors too?
So would the yellow ones be equal to the white ones?
Also do priests follow these colors too?
It's pretty confused :) There are times when it is not clear which to wear:
-Gold is Joyful (the Feasts of the Lord except during the Holy 50, the Feasts of the Cross...). But it is probably also for Sundays, and possibly Saturdays during annual time.
-Red is for weekdays during annual time. It may also be for on Saturdays and Sundays during Lent.
-White is for the Holy 50, including Resurrection, Ascension, and Pentecost
-Black or dark blue is for funerals (outside the Holy 50, which it would be white) and Great Friday
-Green is probably for Koiak.
Yes, the priests and the deacons should be wearing the same colour (unless the priest wears the full set of colours and the deacons only wear stoles with read and gold all the time, except for blue on great Friday/funerals). Generally the deacons should never out-do the priest by wearing the full set of colours if the priest does not. But I ignore that for fun. When the curtains are a different colour, the vestments should match (white for Holy 50, black for Great Friday) The tonia/tunic is always white. The colours apply only to the stole, and the embroidery on the tonia.
The colours became more elaborate over time, and then generally simplified so that most aren't followed today. It probably also varied from region to region. It isn't set in stone, and the common practise of the parish should be followed uniformly, unless you're a trouble maker like me.
[quote author=Amdah link=topic=13387.msg156667#msg156667 date=1339537165]
So would the yellow ones be equal to the white ones?
Also do priests follow these colors too?
It's pretty confused :) There are times when it is not clear which to wear:
-Gold is Joyful (the Feasts of the Lord except during the Holy 50, the Feasts of the Cross...). But it is probably also for Sundays, and possibly Saturdays during annual time.
-Red is for weekdays during annual time. It may also be for on Saturdays and Sundays during Lent.
-White is for the Holy 50, including Resurrection, Ascension, and Pentecost
-Black or dark blue is for funerals (outside the Holy 50, which it would be white) and Great Friday
-Green is probably for Koiak.
So many colours!! Are these actually followed in any of your churches?
[quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13387.msg156671#msg156671 date=1339542826]
[quote author=Amdah link=topic=13387.msg156667#msg156667 date=1339537165]
So would the yellow ones be equal to the white ones?
Also do priests follow these colors too?
It's pretty confused :) There are times when it is not clear which to wear:
-Gold is Joyful (the Feasts of the Lord except during the Holy 50, the Feasts of the Cross...). But it is probably also for Sundays, and possibly Saturdays during annual time.
-Red is for weekdays during annual time. It may also be for on Saturdays and Sundays during Lent.
-White is for the Holy 50, including Resurrection, Ascension, and Pentecost
-Black or dark blue is for funerals (outside the Holy 50, which it would be white) and Great Friday
-Green is probably for Koiak.
So many colours!! Are these actually followed in any of your churches?
We do not have the Gold. In my church gold and white are the same thing. I also have never seen green before.
[quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13387.msg156671#msg156671 date=1339542826]
[quote author=Amdah link=topic=13387.msg156667#msg156667 date=1339537165]
So would the yellow ones be equal to the white ones?
Also do priests follow these colors too?
It's pretty confused :) There are times when it is not clear which to wear:
-Gold is Joyful (the Feasts of the Lord except during the Holy 50, the Feasts of the Cross...). But it is probably also for Sundays, and possibly Saturdays during annual time.
-Red is for weekdays during annual time. It may also be for on Saturdays and Sundays during Lent.
-White is for the Holy 50, including Resurrection, Ascension, and Pentecost
-Black or dark blue is for funerals (outside the Holy 50, which it would be white) and Great Friday
-Green is probably for Koiak.
So many colours!! Are these actually followed in any of your churches?
The leading deacon wears all of them. I used to. A couple other people do. About a dozen wear all but green. Adding a few more white ones each year slowly. One of our priests uses gold/red/black, the other white as well. I've seen green vestments in other churches too, just not during koiak, either worn randomly by people who just wear whatever colour, or for Palm Sunday.
Anything would be greatly appreciated,
thanks :)