I do not have one. Abouna read it to us today after the liturgy. He said that he has special paper in which every family can write their head name and their address and choose one of the papal candidates. He said you can fill up this paper and give it to me or put it in one special donation box.
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13439.msg157056#msg157056 date=1340581715] That makes no sense. What do we know about any of the candidates other than the bishops?
That is exactly what the people said and Abouna said he talked to H.G regarding this. He said that they are going to work out a brief history regarding each candidate and keep it in the church for people to read. (?)
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13439.msg157056#msg157056 date=1340581715] If anything, we should pray that it's a monk who we have never heard of.
Amen
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=13439.msg157058#msg157058 date=1340584003] Most people hardly even know anything about the bishops.
This definitely sounds suspicious. Nothing like that was announced on the West Coast. . .
East coast?
Yup. It is suspicious indeed. I only heard the second half of the letter. I wish there is something that I missed.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=13439.msg157058#msg157058 date=1340584003] Most people hardly even know anything about the bishops. And how much does Maglis al Milli (Communal council) know about any of the candidates? Probably, as much as we do. They not only get to poll the laity for their "opinion", they get to vote alongside the Holy Synod. The communal council created a mess with Pope Cyril V. 100+ years later, we're still deaing with it and it's getting worse even after the Communal council has lost all power (except voting for pope).
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13439.msg157063#msg157063 date=1340592966] [quote author=Andrew link=topic=13439.msg157058#msg157058 date=1340584003] Most people hardly even know anything about the bishops. And how much does Maglis al Milli (Communal council) know about any of the candidates? Probably, as much as we do. They not only get to poll the laity for their "opinion", they get to vote alongside the Holy Synod. The communal council created a mess with Pope Cyril V. 100+ years later, we're still deaing with it and it's getting worse even after the Communal council has lost all power (except voting for pope).
Have you read this letter? To what extent will our "opinion" be taken into consideration?
Also why did not the communal council die off, if they do not have any power except for voting for the pope. I would assume that in the long reign of our Thrice reposed, holy father, Pope Shenouda III, most of the members have died off or do they appoint new members? If so, who appoints them?
I will admit I am probably not the best person to explain the Communal council. Hopefully, others can give better input. My understanding is that new members are chosen as needed. The pope is the president of the council (at least historically). It used to be 24 members, 12 clergy, 12 laymen. Then the council was officially dissolved by Ottoman decree. It reopened by another Ottoman decree and it became 12 members. I believe 8 are laity. They used to have more powers, such as education reform and property management. Since they have never been officially dissolved, the council remains. Their main function today is to vote for a patriarch.
This really has very little to do with HGBY's letter. I was simply trying to show that the idea of "voting" or polling the congregation for their input was probably an extension of the communal council theoretical purpose. Practically, the communal council has been a mess and asking for the congregation's input in our current situation is just as fruitless. Whatever HGBY's reasoning is, I will submit that he probably has a spiritual purpose for asking his congregation. I hope it has nothing to do with putting more weight on the laity's wishes since this has historically been politically motivated and not spiritually motivated.
Every diocese or church is alloted a number of electors (voters), who should ideally reflect the opinion of the people in their diocese / churches and not their own, similar to the electoral system in the US Presidency election.
Maybe HG Bishop Youssef wants to get a solid statistic about the choices of his congregation, so that the electors would represent it as well. If a certain candidate gets 50 % of the vote of the SUS, for example, half the electors would choose him. I am guessing here.
My local church in Toronto will be represented by a hegomen and four voters. The hegomen will represent the opinion of the clergy, the four voters will represent the laymen. They have started to collect opinions and to talk to the congregation to get a sense of who they want so they can represent them. They will wait until the list of candidates has been reduced to five or seven to make their vote distribution final.
I will just comment by saying that the election of the pope is not a democracy. It should not be like the US Presidency election because the Holy Spirit does not directly decide the US President. Why should we employ a system that will choose a pope based on popularity, rather than the hidden spirituality that only the Holy Spirit sees?
I definitely agree with you. You are right. It should not be based on popularity, but on spirituality, only judged by the Holy Spirit.
My opinion is as follows:
Ideally, all members of the Church, as the Body of Christ and being anointed by the Spirit, should be inspired and their consensus should reflect the voice of the Holy Spirit.
The rite of the Church, in the liturgy of any ordination, or in Holy matrimony, makes it a condition for the completion of the rite that the attending congregation does agree, and a consensus has to be reached. One objection would lead to examination of the objection and stopping the rite until a resolution is reached.
In modern times, it is not practical to get all the Coptic nation in one Church for the ordination of the Pope and to reach this consensus. I think the objections are being taken care of in the period of appeals, and we are trying to get anywhere near a consensus by the voting process. In other words, the rite of the election of a Pope is being reconstructed or expanded to deal with the limitations of our time.
The challenging part is to decide who is truly a member of the Body of Christ, and as such should be selected to vote in the Papal elections. I do not know how, but expanding the electoral body should cancel out the effect of unworthy voters if the majority of us are still worthy of being called members of the Body of Christ. If this is not the case, and it might not be, then we should direct our attention to our salvation prior to choosing a Pope. I do not believe that the Holy Spirit works in us depsite of us. There has to be a certain synergy.
Right now, the electoral body is defined by the 1957 bylaws. It is dominated by politicians, members of the local and general lay councils, Judges and ministers and deputy ministers .... and journalists. It is not necessarily the most holy and Christ-loving group that will definitely reflect the voice of the Spirit. Some of them are not even Orthodox. The inclusion of other Copts will not hurt.
Even if this is the case that is still not right, I have already heard H.G Bishop Rofael's name HUNDRED time! Not that I have anything against him, as a matter of fact I LOVE him. He is amazing. To an average Coptic in the land of immigration, H.G is by far the most popular, but they have no clue who those monks on the list might be.
Comments
Link?
I do not have one. Abouna read it to us today after the liturgy. He said that he has special paper in which every family can write their head name and their address and choose one of the papal candidates. He said you can fill up this paper and give it to me or put it in one special donation box.
If anything, we should pray that it's a monk who we have never heard of.
This definitely sounds suspicious. Nothing like that was announced on the West Coast. . .
East coast?
That makes no sense. What do we know about any of the candidates other than the bishops?
That is exactly what the people said and Abouna said he talked to H.G regarding this. He said that they are going to work out a brief history regarding each candidate and keep it in the church for people to read. (?)
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=13439.msg157056#msg157056 date=1340581715]
If anything, we should pray that it's a monk who we have never heard of.
Amen
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=13439.msg157058#msg157058 date=1340584003]
Most people hardly even know anything about the bishops.
This definitely sounds suspicious. Nothing like that was announced on the West Coast. . .
East coast?
Yup. It is suspicious indeed. I only heard the second half of the letter. I wish there is something that I missed.
Most people hardly even know anything about the bishops.
And how much does Maglis al Milli (Communal council) know about any of the candidates? Probably, as much as we do. They not only get to poll the laity for their "opinion", they get to vote alongside the Holy Synod. The communal council created a mess with Pope Cyril V. 100+ years later, we're still deaing with it and it's getting worse even after the Communal council has lost all power (except voting for pope).
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=13439.msg157058#msg157058 date=1340584003]
Most people hardly even know anything about the bishops.
And how much does Maglis al Milli (Communal council) know about any of the candidates? Probably, as much as we do. They not only get to poll the laity for their "opinion", they get to vote alongside the Holy Synod. The communal council created a mess with Pope Cyril V. 100+ years later, we're still deaing with it and it's getting worse even after the Communal council has lost all power (except voting for pope).
Have you read this letter? To what extent will our "opinion" be taken into consideration?
Also why did not the communal council die off, if they do not have any power except for voting for the pope. I would assume that in the long reign of our Thrice reposed, holy father, Pope Shenouda III, most of the members have died off or do they appoint new members? If so, who appoints them?
I will admit I am probably not the best person to explain the Communal council. Hopefully, others can give better input. My understanding is that new members are chosen as needed. The pope is the president of the council (at least historically). It used to be 24 members, 12 clergy, 12 laymen. Then the council was officially dissolved by Ottoman decree. It reopened by another Ottoman decree and it became 12 members. I believe 8 are laity. They used to have more powers, such as education reform and property management. Since they have never been officially dissolved, the council remains. Their main function today is to vote for a patriarch.
This really has very little to do with HGBY's letter. I was simply trying to show that the idea of "voting" or polling the congregation for their input was probably an extension of the communal council theoretical purpose. Practically, the communal council has been a mess and asking for the congregation's input in our current situation is just as fruitless. Whatever HGBY's reasoning is, I will submit that he probably has a spiritual purpose for asking his congregation. I hope it has nothing to do with putting more weight on the laity's wishes since this has historically been politically motivated and not spiritually motivated.
Maybe HG Bishop Youssef wants to get a solid statistic about the choices of his congregation, so that the electors would represent it as well. If a certain candidate gets 50 % of the vote of the SUS, for example, half the electors would choose him. I am guessing here.
My local church in Toronto will be represented by a hegomen and four voters. The hegomen will represent the opinion of the clergy, the four voters will represent the laymen. They have started to collect opinions and to talk to the congregation to get a sense of who they want so they can represent them. They will wait until the list of candidates has been reduced to five or seven to make their vote distribution final.
I will just comment by saying that the election of the pope is not a democracy. It should not be like the US Presidency election because the Holy Spirit does not directly decide the US President. Why should we employ a system that will choose a pope based on popularity, rather than the hidden spirituality that only the Holy Spirit sees?
I definitely agree with you. You are right. It should not be based on popularity, but on spirituality, only judged by the Holy Spirit.
My opinion is as follows:
Ideally, all members of the Church, as the Body of Christ and being anointed by the Spirit, should be inspired and their consensus should reflect the voice of the Holy Spirit.
The rite of the Church, in the liturgy of any ordination, or in Holy matrimony, makes it a condition for the completion of the rite that the attending congregation does agree, and a consensus has to be reached. One objection would lead to examination of the objection and stopping the rite until a resolution is reached.
In modern times, it is not practical to get all the Coptic nation in one Church for the ordination of the Pope and to reach this consensus. I think the objections are being taken care of in the period of appeals, and we are trying to get anywhere near a consensus by the voting process. In other words, the rite of the election of a Pope is being reconstructed or expanded to deal with the limitations of our time.
The challenging part is to decide who is truly a member of the Body of Christ, and as such should be selected to vote in the Papal elections. I do not know how, but expanding the electoral body should cancel out the effect of unworthy voters if the majority of us are still worthy of being called members of the Body of Christ. If this is not the case, and it might not be, then we should direct our attention to our salvation prior to choosing a Pope. I do not believe that the Holy Spirit works in us depsite of us. There has to be a certain synergy.
Right now, the electoral body is defined by the 1957 bylaws. It is dominated by politicians, members of the local and general lay councils, Judges and ministers and deputy ministers .... and journalists. It is not necessarily the most holy and Christ-loving group that will definitely reflect the voice of the Spirit. Some of them are not even Orthodox. The inclusion of other Copts will not hurt.