[quote author=Mikhael link=topic=13642.msg161198#msg161198 date=1353133557] [quote author=Severian link=topic=13642.msg161194#msg161194 date=1353131389] [quote author=arsenios link=topic=13642.msg161190#msg161190 date=1353129638] So, does the Coptic Church pray for the departed? Yes.
I misspoke, the omission I was speaking of was prayer for those in Hades or Gehennah similar to the EO kneeling prayers of Pentecost. I have read that prayer for those in Hades and Gehennah were removed because it is "impossible for the dead to benefit from them".
Mikhael, I looked for EO's Kneeling prayers of Pentecost and I believe you are referring to this prayer found here. I believe you are referring to the second half of the third prayer. If you are referring to another prayer, please correct me. The Greek prayer says
Will You, then, Master, accept our prayers and entreaties, and give rest to everyone’s fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters and children, or of the same family or people, and all the souls that have gone before to their rest in the hope of the resurrection to everlasting life. And place their spirits and their names in the book of life, the bosom of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in the land of the living, in the kingdom of the heavens, in the bliss of Paradise, Your angels of light leading all into Your holy mansions. And on the day You have ordained, raise up our bodies as well according to Your unfailing promises. In departing our bodies to dwell in You our God, there is no death for Your servants Lord, but rather a change from the more sorrowful to the better and more pleasing, to rest, to joy.
And if we have in any way sinned against You, be merciful to them and to us; for no man is free of stain in Your sight though he live but a day. Only You, Who came sinless to earth, our Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom we all hope to find mercy and remission of sins.
Thus as good and loving God, remit and forgive them and us our failings, whether witting or unwitting, committed in knowledge or ignorance, intentionally or unaware, in deed or in thought, in word, in all goings about. Both to those who have gone before and to us who await, give release and repose, granting us and all Your people a good and peaceful end, opening up to us Your heart of love and mercy at Your terrible and awesome Coming and judging us worthy of Your kingdom.
It seems, like many other Greek prayers and hymns, the Greek text can be found in bits and pieces in different Coptic hymns and texts. The majority of this Greek Kneeling prayer is found in the Coptic Litany of the Departed which can be found here. You will see many parallels including "our fathers and brothers who have reposed in the faith of Christ", "the bosom of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", "raise up their bodies", "your true promises which are without lie", "no one is without sin even if his life is a single day", "no death for your servants", etc. Some of the other liturgical language found in the Greek kneeling prayer is found in other Coptic litanies.
It seems to me that wherever you heard that prayer of those in Hades were removed from the Coptic Church because it "is impossible for the dead to benefit from them" was not representing true Coptic Orthodox theology. If this person was Coptic, he did not know any liturgical theology that is professed in every Raising of Evening Incense. If this person was not Coptic, and I have a strong inclination that he/she wasn't, then they are simply propagating rumors to undermine the Coptic Church because he/she believes the Copts are monophysites.
I will conclude by praising God for putting the spark in your heart to ask about this issue directly from the Copts rather than simply conforming to misinformation. Thank you for asking. Maybe in all these discussions, if we refrain from unsubstantiated generalization and preconceived condemnations and use specific references, we will see that the Orthodox theology is found in both ecclesiastical families if we look for it in an open-mind, peace-seeking heart.
It seems, like many other Greek prayers and hymns, the Greek text can be found in bits and pieces in different Coptic hymns and texts. The majority of this Greek Kneeling prayer is found in the Coptic Litany of the Departed which can be found here. You will see many parallels including "our fathers and brothers who have reposed in the faith of Christ", "the bosom of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", "raise up their bodies", "your true promises which are without lie", "no one is without sin even if his life is a single day", "no death for your servants", etc. Some of the other liturgical language found in the Greek kneeling prayer is found in other Coptic litanies.
It seems to me that wherever you heard that prayer of those in Hades were removed from the Coptic Church because it "is impossible for the dead to benefit from them" was not representing true Coptic Orthodox theology. If this person was Coptic, he did not know any liturgical theology that is professed in every Raising of Evening Incense. If this person was not Coptic, and I have a strong inclination that he/she wasn't, then they are simply propagating rumors to undermine the Coptic Church because he/she believes the Copts are monophysites.
I will conclude by praising God for putting the spark in your heart to ask about this issue directly from the Copts rather than simply conforming to misinformation. Thank you for asking. Maybe in all these discussions, if we refrain from unsubstantiated generalization and preconceived condemnations and use specific references, we will see that the Orthodox theology is found in both ecclesiastical families if we look for it in an open-mind, peace-seeking heart.
Again, forgive me for any false accusations I made while I was on the defensive. I would much rather learn that the Copts do not ascribe to the heresies my more fanatical EO brethren claim you do, because that would mean it would be easier to unite without compromising Orthodoxy in any way. I would love to see a return of the Coptic and Syriac rites to our communion especially.
[quote author=Mikhael link=topic=13642.msg161254#msg161254 date=1353299350] Thank you, the source for this was second hand via Monachos.org: http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?4026-Do-Coptic-Christians-pray-for-those-in-hell I wouldn't just assume that it was true based on the claims of an apologist, but as you can see in the thread, the Coptic people agree that it's true. If you could explain the issue raised, I would appreciate it.
Mikhael, I took a quick look at that thread. You will notice from the beginning that entire thread operates on generalizations and preconceived condemnations. Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev never mentions which prayer was removed, which Coptic synodal encyclical removed prayer from the dead, which Coptic journal he read or which metropolitan Bishop Hilarion spoke to that was so unknowledgable of Coptic theology. I honestly have no idea which Coptic prayer of the dead was removed that everyone is talking about. From my reading on that monachos.net thread I do not see that Copts agreeing with any removal of the prayers of the dead rather they are confused and seem to assume a prayer was removed. It's not surprising since the original poster quoted an authoritative bishop who claimed the rite was removed without any reference to "the short article that I [Bishop Hilarion] came across in a journal of the Coptic Church". There is so much anti-Coptic rhetoric with suppositions and generalization (especially on theological matters like the Trisagion) that only seek to confirm anti-Coptic attitude rather than clarify any questions. I refuse to engage in debates about supposed Coptic theological errors and heresies that have no specific reference.
Secondly, after setting up the framework that the Coptic Church revised the liturgical text based on a lack of theological aptness, Bishop Hilarion original article continues: "Even more inadmissible, from my point of view, is the correction of liturgical texts in line with contemporary norms. Many Protestant congregations have already gone a long way in such efforts." Bishop Hilarion is not speaking of actual Protestant congregations, rather Orthodox congregation that he calls Protestant. The very next line confirms his preconceived condemnation: "Recently, however, several members of the Orthodox Church in the West have also begun to propagate the idea of revising orthodox services in order to bring them closer to contemporary standards of political correctness. For example, Archpriest Serge Hackel, an active participant in the Jewish-Christian dialogue..." I find it sad that Bishop Hilarion needs to demonize the Coptic Church so he can make a comparison to "several members of the Orthodox Church in the West" who want to modify liturgical texts. Does the Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition need to demonize other traditions to exemplify some sort of supremacy? Does not the Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition have any positive characteristics to preach or is the strategy for the Eastern Orthodox Church is to raise Christ by condemning others? I am certain that this attitude is not the consensus of the Eastern Orthodox Churches but the words of one rogue bishop.
Thirdly, Bishop Hilarion stated, "The lex credendi grows out of the lex orandi, and dogmas are considered divinely revealed because they are born in the life of prayer and revealed to the Church through its divine services. Thus, if there are differences in the understanding of a dogma between a certain theological authority and liturgical texts, I would be inclined to give preference to the latter. And if a textbook of dogmatic theology contains views different from those found in liturgical texts, it is the textbook, not the liturgical texts, that need correction." Even Coptic members who responded on monachos.net showed that the Coptic liturgical text that pray for the dead still exists. I also showed that the Coptic text is nearly identical to the EO Pentecostal kneeling prayers. So Coptic lex orandi, lex credendi is a faith in the prayer for the dead found in liturgical texts. Why are we still discussing removal of the Coptic theology of prayer for the dead? Unless one finds all liturgical texts with prayers for the dead removed, then no one can claim the Coptic Church removed her faith or revised her theology in prayers for the dead.
Finally, knowing that some rites have changed officially in the past, I find it completely unlikely that an entire liturgical prayer or rite was removed simply because "it has no effect." It is not the custom of an ultra-conservative church like the Coptic Church to simply change rites because someone stated "it has no effect" without giving any scriptural evidence. Past changes in rites were substantiated with numerous scriptural, historical and ecclesiastical evidence.
Maybe someone else on this site with more knowledge can give us a specific reference as to which Coptic rite or prayer for the dead was officially removed by the Holy Synod. Until then, I hope I have given enough information. I know if I do more research I will find Pope Shenouda and other reliable contemporary Coptic theologians agree. I personally have no idea what was removed and these secondary sources are nothing more than rumors trying to undermine the Coptic Church.
Comments
[quote author=Severian link=topic=13642.msg161194#msg161194 date=1353131389]
[quote author=arsenios link=topic=13642.msg161190#msg161190 date=1353129638]
So, does the Coptic Church pray for the departed?
Yes.
I misspoke, the omission I was speaking of was prayer for those in Hades or Gehennah similar to the EO kneeling prayers of Pentecost. I have read that prayer for those in Hades and Gehennah were removed because it is "impossible for the dead to benefit from them".
Mikhael,
I looked for EO's Kneeling prayers of Pentecost and I believe you are referring to this prayer found here. I believe you are referring to the second half of the third prayer. If you are referring to another prayer, please correct me. The Greek prayer says It seems, like many other Greek prayers and hymns, the Greek text can be found in bits and pieces in different Coptic hymns and texts. The majority of this Greek Kneeling prayer is found in the Coptic Litany of the Departed which can be found here. You will see many parallels including "our fathers and brothers who have reposed in the faith of Christ", "the bosom of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", "raise up their bodies", "your true promises which are without lie", "no one is without sin even if his life is a single day", "no death for your servants", etc. Some of the other liturgical language found in the Greek kneeling prayer is found in other Coptic litanies.
It seems to me that wherever you heard that prayer of those in Hades were removed from the Coptic Church because it "is impossible for the dead to benefit from them" was not representing true Coptic Orthodox theology. If this person was Coptic, he did not know any liturgical theology that is professed in every Raising of Evening Incense. If this person was not Coptic, and I have a strong inclination that he/she wasn't, then they are simply propagating rumors to undermine the Coptic Church because he/she believes the Copts are monophysites.
I will conclude by praising God for putting the spark in your heart to ask about this issue directly from the Copts rather than simply conforming to misinformation. Thank you for asking. Maybe in all these discussions, if we refrain from unsubstantiated generalization and preconceived condemnations and use specific references, we will see that the Orthodox theology is found in both ecclesiastical families if we look for it in an open-mind, peace-seeking heart.
It seems, like many other Greek prayers and hymns, the Greek text can be found in bits and pieces in different Coptic hymns and texts. The majority of this Greek Kneeling prayer is found in the Coptic Litany of the Departed which can be found here. You will see many parallels including "our fathers and brothers who have reposed in the faith of Christ", "the bosom of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", "raise up their bodies", "your true promises which are without lie", "no one is without sin even if his life is a single day", "no death for your servants", etc. Some of the other liturgical language found in the Greek kneeling prayer is found in other Coptic litanies.
It seems to me that wherever you heard that prayer of those in Hades were removed from the Coptic Church because it "is impossible for the dead to benefit from them" was not representing true Coptic Orthodox theology. If this person was Coptic, he did not know any liturgical theology that is professed in every Raising of Evening Incense. If this person was not Coptic, and I have a strong inclination that he/she wasn't, then they are simply propagating rumors to undermine the Coptic Church because he/she believes the Copts are monophysites.
I will conclude by praising God for putting the spark in your heart to ask about this issue directly from the Copts rather than simply conforming to misinformation. Thank you for asking. Maybe in all these discussions, if we refrain from unsubstantiated generalization and preconceived condemnations and use specific references, we will see that the Orthodox theology is found in both ecclesiastical families if we look for it in an open-mind, peace-seeking heart.
Thank you, the source for this was second hand via Monachos.org: http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?4026-Do-Coptic-Christians-pray-for-those-in-hell I wouldn't just assume that it was true based on the claims of an apologist, but as you can see in the thread, the Coptic people agree that it's true. If you could explain the issue raised, I would appreciate it.
Again, forgive me for any false accusations I made while I was on the defensive. I would much rather learn that the Copts do not ascribe to the heresies my more fanatical EO brethren claim you do, because that would mean it would be easier to unite without compromising Orthodoxy in any way. I would love to see a return of the Coptic and Syriac rites to our communion especially.
Thank you, the source for this was second hand via Monachos.org: http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?4026-Do-Coptic-Christians-pray-for-those-in-hell I wouldn't just assume that it was true based on the claims of an apologist, but as you can see in the thread, the Coptic people agree that it's true. If you could explain the issue raised, I would appreciate it.
Mikhael,
I took a quick look at that thread. You will notice from the beginning that entire thread operates on generalizations and preconceived condemnations. Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev never mentions which prayer was removed, which Coptic synodal encyclical removed prayer from the dead, which Coptic journal he read or which metropolitan Bishop Hilarion spoke to that was so unknowledgable of Coptic theology. I honestly have no idea which Coptic prayer of the dead was removed that everyone is talking about. From my reading on that monachos.net thread I do not see that Copts agreeing with any removal of the prayers of the dead rather they are confused and seem to assume a prayer was removed. It's not surprising since the original poster quoted an authoritative bishop who claimed the rite was removed without any reference to "the short article that I [Bishop Hilarion] came across in a journal of the Coptic Church". There is so much anti-Coptic rhetoric with suppositions and generalization (especially on theological matters like the Trisagion) that only seek to confirm anti-Coptic attitude rather than clarify any questions. I refuse to engage in debates about supposed Coptic theological errors and heresies that have no specific reference.
Secondly, after setting up the framework that the Coptic Church revised the liturgical text based on a lack of theological aptness, Bishop Hilarion original article continues: "Even more inadmissible, from my point of view, is the correction of liturgical texts in line with contemporary norms. Many Protestant congregations have already gone a long way in such efforts." Bishop Hilarion is not speaking of actual Protestant congregations, rather Orthodox congregation that he calls Protestant. The very next line confirms his preconceived condemnation: "Recently, however, several members of the Orthodox Church in the West have also begun to propagate the idea of revising orthodox services in order to bring them closer to contemporary standards of political correctness. For example, Archpriest Serge Hackel, an active participant in the Jewish-Christian dialogue..." I find it sad that Bishop Hilarion needs to demonize the Coptic Church so he can make a comparison to "several members of the Orthodox Church in the West" who want to modify liturgical texts. Does the Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition need to demonize other traditions to exemplify some sort of supremacy? Does not the Eastern Orthodox liturgical tradition have any positive characteristics to preach or is the strategy for the Eastern Orthodox Church is to raise Christ by condemning others? I am certain that this attitude is not the consensus of the Eastern Orthodox Churches but the words of one rogue bishop.
Thirdly, Bishop Hilarion stated, "The lex credendi grows out of the lex orandi, and dogmas are considered divinely revealed because they are born in the life of prayer and revealed to the Church through its divine services. Thus, if there are differences in the understanding of a dogma between a certain theological authority and liturgical texts, I would be inclined to give preference to the latter. And if a textbook of dogmatic theology contains views different from those found in liturgical texts, it is the textbook, not the liturgical texts, that need correction." Even Coptic members who responded on monachos.net showed that the Coptic liturgical text that pray for the dead still exists. I also showed that the Coptic text is nearly identical to the EO Pentecostal kneeling prayers. So Coptic lex orandi, lex credendi is a faith in the prayer for the dead found in liturgical texts. Why are we still discussing removal of the Coptic theology of prayer for the dead? Unless one finds all liturgical texts with prayers for the dead removed, then no one can claim the Coptic Church removed her faith or revised her theology in prayers for the dead.
Finally, knowing that some rites have changed officially in the past, I find it completely unlikely that an entire liturgical prayer or rite was removed simply because "it has no effect." It is not the custom of an ultra-conservative church like the Coptic Church to simply change rites because someone stated "it has no effect" without giving any scriptural evidence. Past changes in rites were substantiated with numerous scriptural, historical and ecclesiastical evidence.
Maybe someone else on this site with more knowledge can give us a specific reference as to which Coptic rite or prayer for the dead was officially removed by the Holy Synod. Until then, I hope I have given enough information. I know if I do more research I will find Pope Shenouda and other reliable contemporary Coptic theologians agree. I personally have no idea what was removed and these secondary sources are nothing more than rumors trying to undermine the Coptic Church.