Greetings,
I am an Eastern Orthodox who is interested in the Coptic Church. I was baptized as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church and chrismated Eastern Orthodox as an adult. What is the process to enter communion with the Coptic Church? Thank you.
In Christ,
Anthony
Comments
I am very glad that you desire to become part of the Coptic Church. I would highly recommend that you find nearest Coptic Church to you. Tasbeha.org has a "Locate a Church" page under the "Our Faith" tab. The priest or bishop there would be much better qualified than me to explain the rites of entering the church. You would have to ask him about the chrismation because the Eastern Orthodox are not in full communion with the Oriental. I have personally used the inforamtional material on http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/ to learn more about the church and its sacraments.
God Bless
DK
I hope you will interpret what I am about to say in the kindest way possible. I am not trying to be unwelcoming or anything like that. But since the Easter Orthodox are Orthodox why would you want to “convert” to Oriental Orthodox? It is really not encouraged for Orthodox from either side to try to proselytize each other - it can become a source of contention.
In any case Davekan advice is great - talking to a priest always works!
I hope you will forgive me if I misunderstand your question or jumped to a conclusion - I look forward for your correction & elucidation.
In Christ
Theophilus
i have been to several eastern orthodox churches - i visit as often as i can.
:)
[quote author=Antonios72 link=topic=13771.msg160490#msg160490 date=1350258108]
Greetings,
I am an Eastern Orthodox who is interested in the Coptic Church. I was baptized as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church and chrismated Eastern Orthodox as an adult. What is the process to enter communion with the Coptic Church? Thank you.
In Christ,
Anthony
If you decide to live and pray in the Coptic Church, I suggest that you not accept any suggested ecumenist compromises. This is an opportunity for you to receive a true Holy Orthodox Baptism and a true chrismation with Holy Myron. My background was seemingly identical to yours. My blessing of blessings was to enter the Coptic Church through this Holy Baptism (rebaptism?) and Holy Chrismation. You will always be grateful beyond expression. Pray for me.
The proper method of accepting Chalcedonians into the Oriental Rite is through confession of faith, and only so. Father Peter Farrington has written on this (being a renowned Christologian). It is a shae that he does not come around here, but if memory serves, he wrote something on accepting the EO through confession of faith. I will ask him for it, and if I find it, I will post it.
Baptism is certainly out of the question!!!! There is only one Baptism, and the EO baptism is more than accepted!!! If you are rebaptised, my friend, then you re committing grave error and the priest who does it should be subject to discipline.
Also, when switching churches, I recommend you think long and hard. Don't make any rash decisions, and don't be afraid of the word "ecumenism." The grass is always greener on the other side. I'm only saying this because I care for your salvation.
ReturnOrthodoxy
When receiving a Byzantine Chalcedonian/EO into an Oriental Orthodox Church (whether it be Syriac, Armenian, Coptic, etc.) generally all you will need to do is receive Chrismation.
I respectfully disagree with you
If entering eternal life will depend on faith and baptism and of course other factors, I would humbly advise a brother or sister in Christ to think about this extremely important issue and consult with a bishop to see what the recommendations of the Holy Synod are.
Now may I ask you a question?
+ The Chalcedonian Church received Antonios without repeating his original baptism; does the Eastern Church accept the baptism of the Catholic Church?
+ Why would the Oriental Church chrism ate a converting believer who already had been chrismated by the Chalcedons?
+ Is there any doubt in the validity of the Chrismation process performed by the Chalcedonian!!!
[quote author=Severian link=topic=13771.msg160500#msg160500 date=1350330520]
When receiving a Byzantine Chalcedonian/EO into an Oriental Orthodox Church (whether it be Syriac, Armenian, Coptic, etc.) generally all you will need to do is receive Chrismation.
I respectfully disagree with you
If entering eternal life will depend on faith and baptism and of course other factors, I would humbly advise a brother or sister in Christ to think about this extremely important issue and consult with a bishop to see what the recommendations of the Holy Synod are.
Now may I ask you a question?
+ The Chalcedonian Church received Antonios without repeating his original baptism; does the Eastern Church accept the baptism of the Catholic Church?
+ Why would the Oriental Church chrism ate a converting believer who already had been chrismated by the Chalcedons?
+ Is there any doubt in the validity of the Chrismation process performed by the Chalcedonian!!!
I never said I agreed or disagreed one way or the other. I was merely saying that re-Chrismation is usually the method implemented by our Clergy. I was stating what is practiced, not what should be practiced.
And I agree with RO, I dont necessarily know if 'switching' is the best course of action. I personally think that the EO Church is also the Church of Christ and that it has more than adequately guarded the faith which the fathers held (albeit Chalcedon may be a bit of little slip up :P but that was corrected).
I also would like to say i categorically disagree with Irishpilgrim, you have no need of rebaptism. period.
Yes our brother Severian is far too patristically educated to endorse that and i know that for a fact. Hence its clear he is stating the policy most priests (unfortunately) use.
And I agree with RO, I dont necessarily know if 'switching' is the best course of action. I personally think that the EO Church is also the Church of Christ and that it has more than adequately guarded the faith which the fathers held (albeit Chalcedon may be a bit of little slip up :P but that was corrected).
I also would like to say i categorically disagree with Irishpilgrim, you have no need of rebaptism. period.
Sadly, this discussion is just another rally of uninformed (ignorant), unorthodox ecumenists, who won't stop, look and listen to the Scriptures and our patristic Fathers until they dilute Coptic theology with modern Western EO laxity (except ROCOR) to the level that the modern Western EO have diluted and compromised each other. I can't read it to you, but I have copied Antonios' original post below. NOTE that his only baptism was by the RCC. Does this qualify him for the Coptic Sacraments? Do all RCs, therefore, qualify for Coptic sacraments? He tried to become Orthodox, but unfortunately this occurred in an obviously watered down EO jurisdiction (that couldn't be bothered to provide him with an Orthodox Baptism). [The Antiochian jurisdiction where I spent several years in EO enlightenment, also accepted all Protestant baptised and seemingly unbaptised by annointing with some type of (hopefully olive) oil.] I have spent many years in EO communion and study. I have never heard or read any indication that their chrism oil has the nature and qualities of Coptic Holy Myron. I don't detect that any of our zealous EO advocates have spent any considerable quality or quantity of time in actual EO church life. It took me over 5 years to be able to see and understand through the EO propaganda, that seems to be the only foundation of our ecumenists' understanding of modern Western Eastern Orthodoxy. It will probably surprise our seemingly blind, deaf and dumb ecumenists, but typical modern Western Greeks, Lebanese, Serbs, Romanians, etc., (except ROCOR) do not even try to live, and marry, by the morals and theology of Fourth/Fifth Century EO theologians, like Gregory, Basil, Simeon, John Chrysostom, etc. Unfortunately, we can't now unite with the properly catechized theoretical fourth century EO people. We're stuck with the proposition to lower Coptic life, marriage and belief to the near vacuum of these modern EO. No thanks. I do believe that the best place for all modern Coptic ecumenists would be in happy union and communion with any of these modern Western EO jurisdictions. Their Coptic residue would benefit any EO (including ROCOR) community.
[quote author=Antonios72 link=topic=13771.msg160490#msg160490 date=1350258108]
Greetings,
I am an Eastern Orthodox who is interested in the Coptic Church. I was baptized as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church and chrismated Eastern Orthodox as an adult. What is the process to enter communion with the Coptic Church? Thank you.
In Christ,
Anthony
Antonios, I think I understand your orthodox spiritual urges. I pray and recommend that you find one of the several remaining traditional Orthodox Coptic priests, before the "Coptic" ecumenists ruin it all, so that you can be properly initiated into the Coptic Orthodox Church, by Holy Coptic Baptism and Holy Chrismation with Holy Coptic Myron. If the COC continues to compromise (against holy patriarchy and with demonic feminism and freudianism) you can always continue your pilgrimage with the spiritual marks of true Orthodox Baptism and Chrismation. Pray for me, now and then.
I am not an ecumenist, I am dedicated to the fathers though, I am not so sure your approach is one of thorough dedication to the fathers. BUt what would I know! I am some dumb ecumenist!! :P
ROCOR, Holy Coptic Myron... Who else can we include in the list of who the true, true, true, really true Church is? Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Boston? The Matthewites on Athos? Old Calendarist Greeks?
I'm certainly not a proponent of feminism, women ordination, or gay marriage, but there comes a point where you have to give, just a little, without proclaiming that the apocalypse is upon us just because some people think that the EO and OO are the Church.
Hmm I would correct my statement and say that I am in fact an ecumenist, but not to the level you seem to believe. The EO are Orthodox, probably moreso than ourselves
O.K., but while you, and the majority in these discussions are embracing, hugging and kissing your own undefined imaginary orthodox ecumenism, what is your clear position on Antonios' personal situation as he stated it and as I have discussed it above? Should everyone who says that they are Orthodox Christians because they have been anointed by some EO jurisdiction be freely welcomed, on their own invitation, to the Coptic Sacraments? Antonios, on the basis of his RCC baptism? How about the thousands of EO anointed former Protestants, on the basis of their Protestant baptism (or unbaptism), do you also give them your unquestioned invitation to Coptic Sacraments (on which it seems that you place less true value than I do)? There are thousands of these "orthodox" EO (probably the majority of those who are now sincerely questioning the substance of their orthodoxy), who now realize that they may have been duped (re-protestantized) by the glitz and glitter of commercialized bullet points (like, it was at Antioch that they were first called christian, seven (empire sponsored) ecumenical councils, etc., etc.). My experience demands that our Church should first try to stay true to (and guard) all of its Orthodox traditions, and error on the side of obedience to the long tested customs that have been passed down to us. Why hurry to squander 2000 years of spiritual treasures of the heart? What is your plan to return these treasures to the hearts of our youth who have lost them? For a catchy modern Western philosopher, media priest/bishop, fad, song?
What have been your personal related experiences, that your urge to hug everyone, is based upon? I like hugs, too, but many freely given, unguarded kisses pass on dangerous, unintended consequences.
Hi Anthony,
I am very glad that you desire to become part of the Coptic Church. I would highly recommend that you find nearest Coptic Church to you. Tasbeha.org has a "Locate a Church" page under the "Our Faith" tab. The priest or bishop there would be much better qualified than me to explain the rites of entering the church. You would have to ask him about the chrismation because the Eastern Orthodox are not in full communion with the Oriental. I have personally used the inforamtional material on http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/ to learn more about the church and its sacraments.
God Bless
DK
Greetings Antonios,
This is very good advise. I pray that you will be a partaker of the traditions of our church.
God bless you.
[quote author=davekan link=topic=13771.msg160491#msg160491 date=1350258762]
Hi Anthony,
I am very glad that you desire to become part of the Coptic Church. I would highly recommend that you find nearest Coptic Church to you. Tasbeha.org has a "Locate a Church" page under the "Our Faith" tab. The priest or bishop there would be much better qualified than me to explain the rites of entering the church. You would have to ask him about the chrismation because the Eastern Orthodox are not in full communion with the Oriental. I have personally used the inforamtional material on http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/ to learn more about the church and its sacraments.
God Bless
DK
Greetings Antonios,
This is very good advise. I pray that you will be a partaker of the traditions of our church.
God bless you.
I certainly agree with this too :)
Greetings,
I am an Eastern Orthodox who is interested in the Coptic Church. I was baptized as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church and chrismated Eastern Orthodox as an adult. What is the process to enter communion with the Coptic Church? Thank you.
In Christ,
Anthony
And before you do anything, please read this amazing article:
[ftp=ftp://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/brorthoc.htm]http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/brorthoc.htm[/ftp]
The EO belief is that the original poster's Orthodox Chrismation "completed" or fulfilled his RCC baptism as an infant.
I've heard of this quick, neat, simple, "no fast," "herd growth" "Evangelical Orthodox" (not ROCOR) formula. Belief? What is its Traditional, Scriptural, Apostolic, Patristic Orthodox authority, especially as regards "baptized and unbaptized Protestants?" How long do they remain "orthodox?" What is the maximum allowed time of liturgy? Any midnight praises allowed? "Orthodox?" "Going out of business" sale? "Special free introductory offer?" Please, multitudes of holy lives were given to pass True Holy Orthodoxy down to us. For this?
[quote author=arsenios link=topic=13771.msg160606#msg160606 date=1350865237]
The EO belief is that the original poster's Orthodox Chrismation "completed" or fulfilled his RCC baptism as an infant.
I've heard of this quick, neat, simple, "no fast," "herd growth" "Evangelical Orthodox" (not ROCOR) formula. Belief? What is its Traditional, Scriptural, Apostolic, Patristic Orthodox authority, especially as regards "baptized and unbaptized Protestants?" How long do they remain "orthodox?" What is the maximum allowed time of liturgy? Any midnight praises allowed? "Orthodox?" "Going out of business" sale? "Special free introductory offer?" Please, multitudes of holy lives were given to pass True Holy Orthodoxy down to us. For this?
That's great, man!
^sarcasm
Dear Antonios72
I hope you will interpret what I am about to say in the kindest way possible. I am not trying to be unwelcoming or anything like that. But since the Easter Orthodox are Orthodox why would you want to “convert” to Oriental Orthodox? It is really not encouraged for Orthodox from either side to try to proselytize each other - it can become a source of contention.
In any case Davekan advice is great - talking to a priest always works!
I hope you will forgive me if I misunderstand your question or jumped to a conclusion - I look forward for your correction & elucidation.
In Christ
Theophilus
Yes but different people feel more 'at home' in different 'settings/cultures'
I found a parish a half hour from me. I hope to visit with them sometime this week.
In Christ,
Anthony
[quote author=davekan link=topic=13771.msg160491#msg160491 date=1350258762]
Hi Anthony,
I am very glad that you desire to become part of the Coptic Church. I would highly recommend that you find nearest Coptic Church to you. Tasbeha.org has a "Locate a Church" page under the "Our Faith" tab. The priest or bishop there would be much better qualified than me to explain the rites of entering the church. You would have to ask him about the chrismation because the Eastern Orthodox are not in full communion with the Oriental. I have personally used the inforamtional material on http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/ to learn more about the church and its sacraments.
God Bless
DK
[quote author=davekan link=topic=13771.msg162647#msg162647 date=1358134690]
Just wondering, Antonios72, the church you are talking about wouldn't happen to be in Minnesota or Wisconsin, would it?
As long as a Christian is baptized under the Trinitarian formula they could enter Eastern Orthodoxy by Chrismation. I was RC and was received into the EOC (Antiochian) this way. This is a very simple explanation.
Thank you, Boricua_Orthodox,
Simple and true explanation, finally. I believe what you say is all true. Except, I hope that there are still EO jurisdictions which do not compromise the true Orthodox Holy Baptism in this seemingly illogical apostate manner. But then, even if they are true Orthodox, how can they reasonably share communion with their fellow EO who are baptized RC, Protestant, ecumenically, etc.? Haven't they all compromised the most basic, Orthodox Baptism and Chrismation, for unity in apostasy? I was, thankfully, innocently deceived into the U. S. Antiochian jurisdiction in the same manner. I then met several true Orthodox Antiochian priests that told me, privately (after several years), that this process is not true Orthodoxy, but Metro Phillip will depose them (and their family) if they oppose this apostate practice. There is at least one incident when Metro Phillip defrocked an Antiochian priest who received an Orthodox Baptism after being deceived into EO by this apostate shortcut, then being ordained (I'm not sure what EO jurisdiction ordained him), they switch around freely, some are wolves in sheep clothing-I can't tell which, can you?). God then blessed me with the itch and ability to spend about seven years visiting Coptic and Ethiopian Churches (to gradually clear out the Catholic/EO false claims and slanders - Infallible Vicar of Christ, One True Church, One (any) baptism, monophysite, intransigent, Seven Ecumenical Councils, imperialism, etc.) and eventually understanding and receiving in the Holy Coptic Orthodox Liturgy of Baptism and Chrismation, Holy Coptic Orthodox Immersion Baptism and complete Holy Coptic Orthodox Chrismation with Holy Myron. I suspect that our RC and EO visitors and inquirers have a somewhat similar itch as mine was. God gave me gradually stronger signs. I've shared many of them here (as those referred to above). They seem to have the same slander, propaganda, higher theology, etc. based mindset as I had. Interestingly, many Western educated, modern minded blessed to be native Copts are shopping for these new ideas, to fix seeming rigid, out of date, Coptic traditions, rather than striving to complete their understanding, practicing and teaching of their own invaluable Coptic traditions and theology. They are born, and some are still being raised, with invaluable Coptic Orthodox affinities that I will never even be able to sense. If these treasures are not nurtured in the patriarchally ordered Coptic home, church and community, they will be lost and probably never be recovered. Look at how rapidly the traditional christian faith and morals of the Catholic and Protestant communities are depreciating. The Western EO are being too curious, getting too close and are being sucked into the down draft (slippery slope). Too many OO are edging too close and becoming too interested in the wonders of this fun, warm and fuzzy ecumenical unity in apostasy. Don't go too close. Curiosity killed the cat.
Thanks again, Boricua_Orthodox. You've defined my experience and concern perfectly. How do you discern true Orthodox Baptized EO from, usually deceived, summarily "anointed" EO? Is there a difference? I know so. I have been all three. There has been a complete, indescribable difference for me. This is a major obstacle to Orthodox unity to me. But, of course, it is possible, and I think it is necessary, to give all of these deceived "EO" the knowledge and blessing of a true Orthodox Holy Baptism and Holy Chrismation. I doubt, but I'm not sure, if most Western EO still have Holy Myron. The Copts and OO could probably resupply them with an Orthodox Holy Myron starter for this Orthodox re-unity project. In the meantime, I don't understand any valid reason to compromise the Coptic Orthodox Sacrament of Holy Eucharist to persons without true Orthodox Baptism. For what true Orthodox reason? If this isn't a fine Orthodox pearl, what is? Mt. 13:45. Of course, this is just a few of Orthodoxy's fine pearls. Orthodoxy, including EO, also has many more. But this abundance does not justify squandering any of its most valuable, Holy Orthodox Baptism, Holy Chrismation and Holy Eucharist. Where has true Orthodox theology and practice of Holy Marriage gone? To accommodation of God hated divorce? Is this universal accommodation of divorce the first stage of true apostate ecumenical unity? Troubling?
Pray for me, also for the short-changed, deceived Orthodox "converts" and "married."