Please share your conversion stories of converts from Catholicism.
In particular, please answer:
1. What drew you to convert?
2. Why did you choose Oriental Orthodoxy and not Eastern Orthodoxy or Assyrian (Nestorian) Orthodoxy?
3. How has your life changed since you converted? Has it gotten better worse? How has your health changed? (This is a serious question)
Thank you
Comments
Please share your conversion stories of converts from Catholicism.
In particular, please answer:
1. What drew you to convert?
2. Why did you choose Oriental Orthodoxy and not Eastern Orthodoxy or Assyrian (Nestorian) Orthodoxy?
3. How has your life changed since you converted? Has it gotten better worse? How has your health changed? (This is a serious question)
Thank you
The Assyrians are absolutely NOT Orthodox. You cannot be Nestorian and Orthodox. You are either one or the other.
1. What drew me to convert? I'm 30 years old and I realized that I need to have stability in my life, including my spiritual life. It was pretty obvious for me that the Roman Catholic Church cannot offer that kind of spiritual stability, due to the disastrous state of the modern Western Church, the priestly scandals, the progressive agendas and the secularized, humanistic approach to Christianity by the modern Roman Catholic Church. In the Coptic Orthodox Church I found stability in my spiritual life, I learnt how to pray and my knowledge about the Bible and the Church (which had no meaning to me before, as I was unchurched) became meaningful.
2. The Assyrian Church of the East was never an option for me as it is a hetherodox religious body, despite being an ancient church. The fact that JPII said so many positive things about the Assyrians made me understand that they're as liberal as him. Now, the reason I chose Coptic Orthodoxy instead of Eastern Orthodoxy is more complex. In first place, I chose Coptic Orthodoxy because the Copts are very mission oriented. They're themselves indigenous to their country so they know how to deal with the natives of our country. Unlike the Eastern Orthodox, they don't come with the European conqueror mentality which considers most Christian traditions of Non-Orthodox countries as mere faces of heresy. I also found out that many converts to Eastern Orthodoxy have bad feelings towards their former Roman Catholic faith and became Orthodox because of their distaste toward the Roman Catholic Church and not because of the Orthodox faith. I also chose Coptic Orthodoxy because it preserved the original faith without adulterations and changes. The fact that the Coptic Orthodox Church has resisted for so many centuries despite the persecutions of Byzantines and Muslims, made me understood that this is Christianity in its purest form. The Copts didn't accept compromise with hetherodox individuals for political reasons (which is what the Council of Chalcedon was) and preserved the faith as it was believed at the time of the apostles.
3. My conversion took place at a time where I had so many problems in my life, both personal and financial. Since my conversion, I can say that my relations with my family have improved tremendously. My mom and dad also converted to Orthodoxy and we now go to church together. This was unthinkable three or four years ago: my dad was agnostic and my mother was a Roman Catholic who would go alone to church (since I didn't like the Roman Catholic mass and I could never find a spiritual nourishment through it). It's very nice to go to church together and pray together the Agpeya, our family recovered its spiritual peace.
Your story is inspiring and I hope one day I can meet you and shake your hand.
To the craddle Coptic Orthodox here (myself included), learn the simple lesson. Things we take for granted, like the praying the Agpeya as a family, is more precious than we can ever understand. Instead of making excuses for not praying the Agpeya or reading the Bible daily, use the things which "many prophets and kings have desired to see but could not"; the things we see and have but desire not to use. So that when we use these gifts and not take our Coptic faith for granted, we can shine "before men and they will glorify our father in heaven."
I found myself in France where most Orthodox Churches, speak only Arabic. It kind of upset me that we are not in Egypt, yet the sermons, prayers, events , rituals are all in Arabic. I didn't understand the sermons, but the deacons sang in such a noisy way that it pushed me to go to the Catholic Church; especially as I lived downtown Paris, and the Orthodox Churches were in the suburbs.
In the Catholic Church
----------------------------
Well, at first, I loved the architecture, the building, the quietness. I understood the liturgy which was amazing, and I loved the hymns. I had an amazing fellowship with my Catholic friends; it was a friendship centered on spirituality and Christianity, not Egypt, or being immigrant in a country. The activities they had were just mind-blowing. Their youth meetings/conferences were very active indeed.
Why am I Now Orthodox?
---------------------------------
I lost trust in the Roman Catholic Church. I really did.
Losing Trust Part 1:
Its a church that allows Charismatic prayer, it doesn't agree with it, it thinks its wrong, yet it says "its valid" because the Pope says its ok.
I'm not sure you understand what I mean by Charismatic prayer.
Here's a prayer meeting that I attended: PLEASE WATCH THIS UNTIL THE END!!!
Please check out what is going on at 0:37 seconds in this clip.
I was actually standing there when they did this. I started break dancing even. No - i'm kidding. I didnt breakdance.. I was SO shocked!!! Its unbelievable.
This disturbed me, and then what disturbed me more was the extent of this "protestantised" worshipping: They had praying in jibberish, praying in jiberrish with dancing, praying in Jibberish whilst dancing around the Alter.... they had slain in spirit events... where the Holy Spirit comes upon you and you fall over like a Domino...
All these things devalue the sacraments. We allow the Holy Spirit to grow within us through engagement in the sacraments. So, basically, I could just force the Holy Spirit to abide in me without even having confessed, repented, been baptised, living in my sin, not having Holy Communion...
This is from God?
OK.. so let's say that this is not from God - and that I am not really obliged to attend this type of prayer. Why does the Church still allow it? I do not want to be part of a Church that OK's this kind of nonsense spirituality.
Losing Trust Part 2:
A Catholic friend of mine told me that adultery was OK. I said to her that this was totally uncatholic. She said that her priest said it was OK. I went to her church and long-story-short: her priest said it was OK. NO KIDDING.
He told me: "If we tell people that adultery is wrong,they would no longer come to Church".
It didnt stop there: no no... if I misunderstood this jesuit priest once, he definately brought home the message another time when he said that sex outside marriage is not a sin either. Then he asked me "what are you doing here? Our Church values is not the same as the Orthodox". lol
I couldnt agree more with him.
I know you will find this hard to believe, but sex outside marriage for the Catholic Church is like drinking coffee without sugar. Its OK, you just should not abort kids.
So many friends told me this. One guy told me that his priest told him: "I don't care if you've slept with prostitutes... DID YOU VISIT YOUR GRANDMOTHER?"
Losing Trust Part 3:
I kind of got the impression that with the RC, they just care that you are Catholic, they don't really care if you believe in God, or what your spiritual capacity or sufferings are. They just WANT you to consider yourself catholic.
This attitude puts me off. Its as if they are power hungry rather than spiritually hungry.
Losing Trust Part 4:
The sermons are so boring. I have never attended a sermon that inspired me. It was so boring. So, despite the liturgy lasting 1 hour only, compared to our 2.5 hours, I prefer at least to be inspired than to sit there bored.
Losing Trust Part 5:
I was asked to come into Church to pray for Ecumenical Unity in the RC.
I said :"Sure. I will pray with you". They invited an Orthodox, a protestant, an Anglican etc.... and each year they hold a mass where each denomination prays for Unity.
At the end of the mass, the priest asked me, KNOWING VERY WELL THAT I am ORTHODOX, if I would like to distribute the Body of Christ.
I said: "Father, thank you, but I cannot. I would prefer it if you did that!".
Guess what he did? He gave it to the protestant woman to distribute.
This really really put me off. I was so saddened by this.
Losing Trust Part 6:
I do not mind that the Body of Christ is given in the form of a wafer as the RC, but I am upset at several things here during their communion:
a) The priest appears to eat from One Wafer and yet distributes to the congregation another smaller wafers.
b) Where is the Blood?? The RC say that if you have taken the Body, then you've also automatically taken the Blood. How? I didnt receive any Blood!
Losing Trust Part 7:
I hate the organ. Its so noisy. I used to love the RC and enjoy praying in there until the organist showed up. The noise from this instrument is so annoying that I cannot pray with this.
Losing Trust Part 2:
Dogmas:
I do not believe in the Immaculate Conception - because Saint Mary was born of 2 Normal Human beings. She inherited the consequences of Adam's sin like all of us.
The RC tell us that you cannot have consequences without guilt, and St Mary did not inherit the guilt of the consequence of Adam's sin.
I find this logic really silly.
I do not believe in Purgatory either.
The rationale behind the RC's stance of purgatory, is that if I do something wrong to someone,and they forgive me , then great, justice has happened, then I'm OK. But if I do something wrong to someone and he does NOT forgive me, yet I ask for forgiveness, then God will give me some prison time in purgatory for the stuff that I was not forgiven for.
Then there was Limbo: I think this dogma, the RC didn't even believe in it and officially cancelled Limbo in 2001. Which was a shame because I had purchased some tickets for the concert.
This is a JOKE! Don't tell me to take this seriously!!!! I am sad and my heart is weeping over the RC!!
Then there's the issue of the Pope. He wants to be the big kid on the block, yet had we been ONE Church, most of the copts in Egypt would have been massacred by now by association of the actions of the Catholic Church. I'm not even talking about the crusades. Was there not a time when Pope Benedict gives a talk about violence and religion and offends muslims? Well, he offended muslims so much, that our Pope Shenouda HAD to say that Pope Benedict is responsible for HIS Church and not ours. He does not talk on behalf of the Coptic Church.
Then there was the inquisition... good grief!! What is wrong with this establishment???
Then we have the case of pedophile priests:
This really brings home the image I had that the Church is just a figurehead - it only wants to show an image of good people - and of an establishment that still has followers. It doesn't have followers. Its losing thousands every year.
What bothers me is this: Where in the sacrament of confession did these priests slip through the process?? How could they be not analyzed before hand during confession. Either their confession is useless, or they are acting that they are confessing.
Confession is an integral part in the life of anyone Orthodox. But there's is not working!!
I could go on, and these are just a few points that led me back to the Orthodox Church.
Is the Catholic a place where I can grow spiritually??? Im not so sure.
there are people among them who take their salvation seriously if you like that
however these things should not be allowed
The catholic church is a diverse church you will find extremes in their church
there are people among them who take their salvation seriously if you like that
however these things should not be allowed
My friend, I pray for the catholic church to become more spiritual. Indeed, there are many catholics who take their faith seriously. We are not comparing PEOPLE, we are talking about a Church!
I get along more with my Catholic friends than with the Orthodox. But again, we are not comparing people. We are looking at a Church that innovates dogmas, promotes charismatic prayer and has a very turbulent and unspiritual, if not unchristian, past.
I myself have been a proponent of ridding churches of microphones all together and allowing the chorus of deacons to sing harmoniously as one instead of one deacon leading and having all the pressure of the service. This has concerned me for several years and I must wonder if it drove Zoxsasi away, how many others this is affecting. I'm a cradle Orthodox Christian who was born and raised Coptic so if it bothers me this much I'm curious/concerned about how this is affecting others, particularly the converts.
Thank you Venado,
Your story is inspiring and I hope one day I can meet you and shake your hand.
To the craddle Coptic Orthodox here (myself included), learn the simple lesson. Things we take for granted, like the praying the Agpeya as a family, is more precious than we can ever understand. Instead of making excuses for not praying the Agpeya or reading the Bible daily, use the things which "many prophets and kings have desired to see but could not"; the things we see and have but desire not to use. So that when we use these gifts and not take our Coptic faith for granted, we can shine "before men and they will glorify our father in heaven."
Amen! Thank you Venado and Zoxsasi for sharing.
While it's true that the Novus Ordo (New Order) Mass of Pope Paul VI was intended to simplify and popularize the Mass for the people of the 1960's and 1970's, with the variety of cultural additions depending on the countries in which the Mass was "celebrated," there is in fact a strong movement in the Catholic Church to return to the original Latin Mass, the last update of the rubrics which was published in 1962.
See, for example, the very recent reports on the resurgence of the traditional Latin Mass in the media:
http://www.economist.com/news/international/21568357-its-trendy-be-traditionalist-catholic-church-traditionalist-avant-garde
and:
http://realclearreligion.org/articles/2013/01/03/the_rise_of_latin_youth.html
The video posted above of the charismatic group dancing around the altar at the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris does not indicate that this is a Catholic liturgical worship. The Cathedral, after all, is the property of the French State and is as such a public property, so even Muslims could pray there if they chose to do so. The fact that some random charismatic group decided to dance around in there has nothing to do with the Catholic Church, but it has much to do with the secularism of the French state since the age of the Revolution and the persecution of the Church (persecution that is UNIMAGINABLE compared to what the Coptic Orthodox Church is going through these days in the current Egyptian revolutions!) and misuse of its holy and consecrated property. God willing, the former glory of the French Catholic Church will return!
More importantly, lets continue praying for our church and for the slow patristic revival happening. I pray that finally the Coptic Orthodox church will pass her growing pains in North America and begin to educate her people more seriously once again.
Agape,
While it's true that the Novus Ordo (New Order) Mass of Pope Paul VI was intended to simplify and popularize the Mass for the people of the 1960's and 1970's, with the variety of cultural additions depending on the countries in which the Mass was "celebrated," there is in fact a strong movement in the Catholic Church to return to the original Latin Mass, the last update of the rubrics which was published in 1962.
See, for example, the very recent reports on the resurgence of the traditional Latin Mass in the media:
http://www.economist.com/news/international/21568357-its-trendy-be-traditionalist-catholic-church-traditionalist-avant-garde
and:
http://realclearreligion.org/articles/2013/01/03/the_rise_of_latin_youth.html
The video posted above of the charismatic group dancing around the altar at the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris does not indicate that this is a Catholic liturgical worship. The Cathedral, after all, is the property of the French State and is as such a public property, so even Muslims could pray there if they chose to do so. The fact that some random charismatic group decided to dance around in there has nothing to do with the Catholic Church, but it has much to do with the secularism of the French state since the age of the Revolution and the persecution of the Church (persecution that is UNIMAGINABLE compared to what the Coptic Orthodox Church is going through these days in the current Egyptian revolutions!) and misuse of its holy and consecrated property. God willing, the former glory of the French Catholic Church will return!
I'm not sure I understand your comments.
Sure, anyone can go inside and participate in the liturgy, but not everyone can go in and hold their prayer groups. These groups are authorized by the Curé de Notre Dame. This is an official Catholic Group. They are clearly charismatic.
I only posted the video of the dancing in Notre Dame because the dance moves were quite funny. There was a guy next to me hopping on one foot and then he changed foots and alternated every so often. Whilst he jumped on his left foot, he'd punch the air with his right hand and vice versa.
If I did not find it funny, I'd have cried out of despair.
What Im trying to say is: this charismatic behaviour is not a small little group that no one hears about. I've attended liturgies in the RC where this goes on every day. I've been to Medjurge where this is literally daily prayer style.
Look, this is PART of the Catholic Church.
You have the RC Latin Rite, the Byzantine Rite, the Traditional Rite, the Coptic Catholic Rite, and now..... the Charismatic Rite.
Look, all I am saying is this: the RC Church agrees with this nonsense, and this bothers me. It bothers me that its personality is ANY spirituality-so-long-as-you-are-Catholic approach. One of the instigators of this spirituality was a protestant priest who became Catholic. He was one their spiritual mentors. The RC asked him not to attend anymore their church, but they didnt stop the youth from this madness charismatic ideology. What does that tell you?? That they care more about numbers than spirituality.
180,000 German Catholics renounced their baptism last year. This number is growing.
Thousands are leaving the RC each day, and I personally know many many people who have not only left the RC, but have gone to the extent of renouncing their baptism and ensuring their names are not written in any documentation/records that the Church holds.
The latest survey suggests that millions are completely ashamed of their church. Indeed, I would be also. This is the Body of Christ. How can it be associated with pedophilia, violence, murder, corruption ??? What is this?
What did the Coptic Orthodox Church do wrong?? NOTHING! We just have a problem with noisy microphones. I agree- just get rid of microphones - problem solved!
What bothers me is that not only have they CLEARLY lost all credibility, they want us to be united with them to the point of accepting their Pope as ours, and having our reputation tainted by their history??? What idiocy!
Division is not from God, but this division clearly was wise. I thank God for the Filoque dogma that caused this division - I'm glad we are divided from them - can you imagine what life would be like if the RC was our Church?? I would NEVER have been a Christian. I'd have had girlfriends, experimented with Charismatic voodoo magic, and then perhaps married a protestant woman.
The RC is not serious. Its a disgrace. It really is.
One thing that ANNOYS the hell out of me is the time when I heard an RC deacon explain how the Bread becomes the Body of Christ:
"... its very simple, the Bread is transformed into the Body of Christ by the process of transubstantiation." he explained.
What IDIOCY!!!!! Enough already!! This is sad.
Do not think for one moment that I'm proud to be Coptic Orthodox because we are NOT catholic - no.. not at all.. my heart is SO sad by what is happening to the RC. These were meant to be our brothers. We came to Europe because we thought it was catholic. It just seems that only 30% of French people consider themselves catholic. 30%!!!
That's funny, because 40% of the population is Muslim or of Islamic Origins.
This is a sad realization of what the RC has become. You cannot change your past, but what it has become is so awful that I would find it hard to accept that this is an authentic apostolic church. How?
..."... if the salt so loses its flavour , how shall it be seasoned?"
It becomes worthless. It becomes pointless.
Its really beyond me why, despite their stupid history, their Pope still wants to consider himself the leader of all Patriarchs and Popes.
However, I think we should avoid labeling all the RCs that way. I've attended a few parishes where that doesn't happen. With that being said, the RC are damaged in so many areas. And the Coptic Orthodox Church isn't without her problems what with the protestant influence.
But with the Coptic Church it's strange, because most priests and laity do it out of ignorance of proper OrthoPraxis. Once they they are enlightened I see a tremendous change in the hearts and minds of those Copts. And this revival is certainly taking hold by the grace of God for which I'm thankful. But the education of priests and laity is still a continuing thing for many generations to come.
The RC have their seminaries and knowledge, and if anything, they know the protestants and charismatics better than anyone, since they're an offshoot of the RCs but they willingly allow it. That's the strange part to me. There's no ignorance on their side. They've always been in the west and know it well. We don't yet. Copts have only been out of Egypt for half a century or so. We're still in our growing pains.
I see this problem as well creeping slowly in the EO but they're more adamant in opposing it head on because they have a lot of great writers tackling the issue of homosexuality.
With the OO you don't see much, but rather small off shoot groups like the facebook LGBT copts and other nonsense. I like the Coptic approach because each case is dealt with privately with the person's FOC.
I used to be against this but now I see its benefit, and simply doing classes and courses for them isn't the way to do it. Each person needs individualized personal spiritual treatment and growth. Thank God I'm Coptic Orthodox. Every time I doubt my church in something I see the disasters taking place in others church and end up seeing the wisdom of the Coptic approach. Always a monastic, sort of ascetic approach. Each person with his/her spiritual elder. That is the way to do.
Although I feel we could still treat homosexuals better as laity and allow them to feel more loved in order to lead them to repentance. I think the agenda of those homosexuals is to bring the RC church to her knees once it has been infiltrated deeply enough.
People laugh at me when I say this but in the U.S this is happening everywhere, and I'm sure the same with Europe & the rest of North America. They're probably thinking once 1 Apostolic church has finally accepted homosexuality as normal behavior and a God given right other apostolic churches will follow suit or perhaps be easier to infiltrate as well.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist and in fact hate the word, but I wouldn't be saying this if I haven't seen it first hand and heard from RCs themselves about what's happening. I urge everyone to cherish your church, your Orthodoxy, continue to educate yourself in humble submission to your clergy and bishops.
And never let anyone shame you into thinking otherwise. We have the purest form of Orthodoxy that has never compromised an IOTA of the faith. Although our knowledge and Orthopraxis is disastrous, we will get there. The great Alexandrian see will once again return to its glorious past and show Christ to all the world. Anyway, I've gone off topic.
The point I'm making is that the RC church is in a disastrous mode right now and we should pray for her to come back to the truth of Orthodoxy.
Zoxsasi, I see your frustration and your point that drove you to it.
However, I think we should avoid labeling all the RCs that way.
This is precisely why I have left the RC.
Do you not see?
There are countless numbers of the RC (faithful) who are dead against this Charismatic movement. That's great. But the point is that the Church is NOT against it.
The Church (RC) has said it is valid.
When the RC behaves in this way, I cannot help but lose respect for this Church. As I said, I have attended liturgies where people have fallen over in Slained in Spirit events and I've attended liturgies in the RC where this doesn't happen - I'm looking at the top hierarchy - the Pope: He says IT IS VALID. That's all I care about. I do not wish to be part of a Church where the faithful think something is invalid and the Pope allows it.
I could cope with silly dogmas that they had because my faith was strong, but this spirituality is unbearable. I'm not sure Im following you. There are Copts that attend Evangelical prayer meetings and churches, but the Church has always been against this. Do you not see the difference?? That's interesting. I do not know ANY orthodox priest who is Charismatic - Sure, I know many who love Evangelical/Anglican preachers, and I do too, but Charismatic prayer? Not sure about that, my friend. Exactly - that is the strange part: there ought to be NO ignorance from their part.
Friend, I am PRO-Catholic. But I cannot defend them anymore. Regardless, they hate our Church because of ONE thing: we are not under their Pope and they see our Pope as a "wannabe Pope".
As I said, had the RC behaved systematically in a righteous way and in holiness throughout history, and held to the dogmas laid out by our Church Fathers, then I would be 1000000% ok to accept the Supremacy of ANY POpe, whether of Rome, or any other Jurisdiction, but frankly speaking, they do not deserve my trust and why would I leave my beautiful Orthodox Church for a Church whose own faithful are leaving it in droves!?
Zoxsasi, would you mind providing literature proving that the RC truly accepts this. Perhaps from their Pope or even a cardinal? Not that I doubt your words; I very much believe everything you said. You seemed very sincere and concerned. But I'd like to know what officially the RC has said and its logic that drove it to these conclusions. Thanks
I will try to obtain some formal literature on this.
But our own soteriology and dogmas with the RC is very different.
The dogma of the Filioque is so wrong. I do not believe in this.
I used to think, like an idiot, that "who cared for these differences - so long as they love st Mary and have the Eucharist, that's all that counts "
This is stupidity par excellence to think this way.
I do not believe what they believe. I do not believe we inherit ANY guilt from that of Adam and Eve. This is so important, because it means that the RC will be giving their congregation guilt trips for no reason.
Our orthodox is so different that I might as well call our church a different religion than Catholicism.
I do not believe in purgatory or limbo. Nor in the infallibility of their pope concerning dogmas. This is a joke. If the pope was so infallable concerning dogmas , why did the RC cancel the dogma of limbo?.
If you had signed up to this dogma and joined the RC because you liked the dogma of limbo, then you will be disappointed as its been discontinued.
What kind of Church is this????
Limbo (not the dance...lol) was never officially RC dogma. It was a theological opinion about the destiny of deceased infants. Purgatory is official RC dogma. I am a Roman Catholic convert to Eastern Orthodoxy of Puerto Rican ancestry.
I am aware that I should not have called it a dogma, but these beliefs, these innovations are typical of the RC. The RC officially disowned this idea of Limbo a few years ago.