Tawadros is an arabized deviation of Theororus, just as Gawargios is an arabized deviation of Georgios. Tawadros should be Theodorus just as Gawargios should be Georgios.
As Coptic Orthodoxy spreads throughout the world, the name of Theodorus II will facilitate affininity with previous Orthodox Patriarchs, will be easier to remember among the Other Orthodox Patriarchates, both Eastern and Oriental, and will be easier to pronounce for all Orthodox along with English speakers.
His Holiness is already called by the name Theodoros II on Wikipedia at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Coptic_Popes
Comments
No worries, though, we can call the Coptic Patriarch Theodorus the II, as opposed to the Greek Patriarch, who is Theodoros the II
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release November 04, 2012
Statement by the Press Secretary on the Selection of the Coptic Pope
The President sends his warm congratulations to Coptic Orthodox Christians and all Egyptians on the joyous occasion of the selection of Bishop Tawadros as the 118th Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of all Africa on the Holy See of St. Mark the Apostle. The United States shares Bishop Tawadros' commitment to unity, tolerance, and interfaith dialogue. We wish him great success in leading the Middle East’s largest Christian community during a time of great change in the region, and reaffirm our strong support for religious freedom and mutual respect among people of all faiths. The American people will continue to stand with Egyptians of every faith as they work to fulfill the goals of their revolution, including freedom, dignity, and economic opportunity.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/11/04/statement-press-secretary-selection-coptic-pope?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl
Tawadros is an arabized deviation of Theororus, just as Gawargios is an arabized deviation of Georgios. Tawadros should be Theodorus just as Gawargios should be Georgios.
As Coptic Orthodoxy spreads throughout the world, the name of Theodorus II will facilitate affininity with previous Orthodox Patriarchs, will be easier to remember among the Other Orthodox Patriarchates, both Eastern and Oriental, and will be easier to pronounce for all Orthodox along with English speakers.
His Holiness is already called by the name Theodoros II on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Coptic_Popes
I would have to agree with this.
But what's weighing on my mind moreover is that Tawadorus isn't toing to go down well in Aketchi Etkharis Hymn. Try it. Sing it using Tawadarous and the Theodorous.
A child's name should reflect the personality, the culture, the nationality of the parents. I'm not going to call my son Sven (a swedish name) if I'm Coptic living in the UK.
I just realize that this may cause confusion as the Eastern (Greek) Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandira is also called Theodoros II, who replaced Petros VII since 2004.
No worries, though, we can call the Coptic Patriarch Theodorus the II, as opposed to the Greek Patriarch, who is Theodoros the II
This proves my point. Find me one name, word or noun in proper English that has two different spellings. There's only one way to spell Theodore. If there's two different spellings, then it's not English (or it's different dialects of English. Do we really want to promote Arabish or proper American English?)
Wats does the name tawadros in coptic look like?
So...like how do we right his name in coptic?
Wats does the name tawadros in coptic look like?
that's something that i have been thinking about since yesterday.....
How can we have Tawadros 1 then Theodorus 11? It would have to be Tawadros 1, then Tawadros 11.
How can we have Tawadros 1 then Theodorus 11? It would have to be Tawadros 1, then Tawadros 11.
the names are both equivalent. Pope Shenouda the 1st (or maybe the second) was Senoutios (Cenou;ioc) and not Shenouda
secondly, Tawadros and Tadros are both spelt as the Greek name Theodoros as in the assembly of saints.
Oujai
[quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=13840.msg160962#msg160962 date=1352156710]
How can we have Tawadros 1 then Theodorus 11? It would have to be Tawadros 1, then Tawadros 11.
the names are both equivalent. Pope Shenouda the 1st (or maybe the second) was Senoutios (Cenou;ioc) and not Shenouda
There is a little difference here. Senoutios is Greek and Shenouda is Coptic. However, Tawadros is exactly Theodoros with an OB pronunciation. They are not two different dialects or languages, just a different pronunciation. Both are :eodoroc in Coptic script. In other words, the 45th patriarch of the Coptic Church was :eodoroc pihouit and the 118th patriarch will be :eodoroc pimah `cnau. The problem is not the Coptic, Joshuaa. The problem is the English transliteration. Since there is no standard transliteration, both Tawadros I/Theodorus II or Theodorus I/Tawadros II or Theodorus I/Theodorus II or Tawadros I or Tawadros II can be acceptable.
I am claiming that the English translation should always be Theodore, not Theodorus or Tawadros. In an English context, we should always use the English word Mary, not the transliteration Mariam or Maryam or Miriam or Maryem. Lists like Wikipedia should have Theodore. If you look at the Greek list of Ecumenical patriarchs, they don't have Theodorus. They have Theodore I in 667 AD. Even though Greeks prefer to call their current ecumenical patriarch Bartholomeos, he is listed as Bartholomew. And the English diaspora calls him Bartholomew.
oujai
I don't understand what you mean by "Coptic saints aren't necessarily and really shouldn't be the same within the Coptic church" This isn't about name popularity. It's about proper English usage, both in non-religious and religious environments.
oujai
Yesterday, it was Just "Theodoros II"
if we replaced all the shenouda with tawadros...wat it be in coptic?
Ex. Through their prayers, keep the life of our honored father the high priest, Papa Abba(Shenouda), O Lord...
AND Hiten nou`eu,y@ `areh `e`pwnq `mpenwit ettaiyout `n`ar,y`ereuc@ papa abba Senouda @P=o=c ari`hmot nan `mpi,w `ebol `nte nennobi.
NOW...HOW DO YOU WRITE IT?
Through their prayers, keep the life of our honored father the high priest, Papa Abba(Tawadros), O Lord...AGREED BUT HB BELOW?
Hiten nou`eu,y@ `areh `e`pwnq `mpenwit ettaiyout `n`ar,y`ereuc@ papa abba Senouda @P=o=c ari`hmot nan `mpi,w `ebol `nte nennobi.
How do you replace Shenouda? Do you write tawadros..if yes, how do you write it in coptic letters if there is no letter 'wow' in coptic? or do you write theodorus...in which case that's not his name...
why are you confused? You write Tawadros in English, and in coptic it's the same spelling as the Greek Theodoros.. the pronunciation is different between Coptic and Greek, not the spelling
oujai
their names' pronounciation were the same both in english and coptic and arabic...
Like even though pope Shenouda's name in coptic was actually Cenouthioc and pope
Kyrillos's names is Cyril in english...but we always said the name of their ordination.
In pope Tawadros' case, its different then both of them? His name is written different in coptic?
So like in a tri-langual book i.e. english, arabic, coptic liturgical book, Tawadros is written
Theodorus, so it should be said Theodorus...but that's not the name he's ordained with...
Do you understand my confusion?
Cyril97
take this as an example: how do you pronounce the name of the the name of the French football player Thierry Henry? You may wrongly think it's /henri/ until a French person does it as /onri/ and then you realise your mistake.. that's his name and he's known within his community as such, same case with the pope.. no innovation needed
oujai
But anyways, now that you understand my question, how do you write H.H.'s name in the "coptic column"?
Your example simply supports the idea that Tawadros should also be Tawadrso in coptic...so wat's it
supposed to be? Theodorus or Tawadros? And if it's the latter, how do u actually write Tawadros in coptic?
Appreciate it alot,
Cyril97
Oujai qen `P[C
Wouldn't the application of OB mean that :eodoroc would be pronounced as Tawodoros. Why does the 2nd 'o' disappear? I mean, the fact that Arabic pronounces a name in a certain way, doesn't mean that OB has the exact same pronunciation. In many cases it does, but in some cases it is different right?
For example the English word David:
Dawood in Arabic (right?)
and Dawid (or maybe David) in OB.
oujai
Theodore, Theodoros or Tawadros?
Is it now clear how should we call the Pope in English?
Theodore, Theodoros or Tawadros?
Tawadros.
[quote author=Servos link=topic=13840.msg163999#msg163999 date=1364393065]
Is it now clear how should we call the Pope in English?
Theodore, Theodoros or Tawadros?
Tawadros.
Amen.
Theodore is the Anglicized name. Anglicized names are usually the standard used in English compositions. We don't say the St. Yoannes Gospel in English, we say St. John's Gospel.
Theodoros is the Greek name and the Greco-Bohairic pronunciation of the proper name.
Tawadros is the Old Bohairic and Arabic pronunciation of an alternate spelling of the proper name.
There is no confusion in this. The confusion lies in the consensus of what we should call our new pope. The consensus among the Alexandrian Greeks is to call their pope (with the same proper name) Theodoros in Greek writings and most English writings but sometimes Theodore. The consensus among the Copts is to use the Arabic name Tawadros. The confusion lies in what he should be called in English. Because of cultural pressure (often dictated by political trends as Ophadece commented on Henri's French name), the Old Bohairic or Arabic pronunciation is used instead of the Greek or Anglicized versions.
It's not a matter of clarity, it's a matter of consensus (or politics).
Theodore is the Anglicized name. Anglicized names are usually the standard used in English compositions. We don't say the St. Yoannes Gospel in English, we say St. John's Gospel.
Theodoros is the Greek name and the Greco-Bohairic pronunciation of the proper name.
Tawadros is the Old Bohairic and Arabic pronunciation of an alternate spelling of the proper name.
There is no confusion in this. The confusion lies in the consensus of what we should call our new pope. The consensus among the Alexandrian Greeks is to call their pope (with the same proper name) Theodoros in Greek writings and most English writings but sometimes Theodore. The consensus among the Copts is to use the Arabic name Tawadros. The confusion lies in what he should be called in English. Because of cultural pressure (often dictated by political trends as Ophadece commented on Henri's French name), the Old Bohairic or Arabic pronunciation is used instead of the Greek or Anglicized versions.
That was my question :)
What is ENGLISH standard. Because this is forum in English :)
Tawadros isn't an Arabic name, nor an Arabic pronunciation..
oujai