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Copts for beginners
Here I would like to post some basic questions about Copts which I don't understand quite good.
Comments
Is Coptic language live only in Church texts ? Is there any contemporary Copts who can speak Coptic ? Do you feel Arab as your mother tongue ? Does the sharing the same language with Arabs make you closer to them or not ? Does Copts have their own schools in Egypt or you are obliged to go together with Muslims ? Do the Copts have right to learn in schools basic of Coptic language and Coptic religion ?
Technically, it is only alive in the church. There are very few people who can speak fluently now.
Personally I enjoy the Arabic language, it is very nice, but no I do not think it makes us closer to them. I think, however, the similar cultural makes us feel closer.
There is some Coptic private school in Egypt, but they are not widespread and not everyone live close to one, or has the financing to afford one. So, we are not obligated to go to the same schools as the Muslims; it is more like we do not have a choice.
"Do the Copts have right to learn in schools basic of Coptic language and Coptic religion?"
I am going to leave this for Ophadece...
oujai
I am not old (just started college)
My school was a private school (reduced fee or government funded schools have a worse case scenario)
Religious education was provided for Islam only. By coincidence, there was a christian science teacher at the school who voluntarily offered to teach me and the other christian children in the school. She was not paid for it.
If this teacher was not there, I would be asked to leave the classroom while the lesson was taught and come back at the end. At least I didn't have to take their exam thank God!
So in theory, we have the right to learn. In practice, find your own volunteer teacher. For a person who was born and raised in Egypt, I felt a complete stranger in my own country. I felt unwanted where I was and I am more comfortable since I left.
Don't get me wrong, I miss it, but there is more bad than good so I can't be there. It's only getting worse and I feel sorry and helpless for the sake of the oppressed Copts in Egypt because most of them are TRAPPED in what is supposed to be their 'home country'
However, the Arabic language curriculum included verses from the Quran which were compulsory to learn. I had to memorise them to recite in exams.
Arabic is my first language by force. I would have loved to speak Coptic instead. People who tell you that Arabic is a 'beautiful' language are wrong. They only say so because they have sentimental memories and emotions connected to their mother tongue. There is always a special place in your heart for the 'traditions' you were raised up with. It does not mean that Arabic is beautiful. I quite hate Arabic.
Sharing the same language does not make us closer. When Arabs invaded Egypt, they forced Copts to quit speaking coptic.
Arabic leads to a lot of problems in the way the bible is translated I think. Translating many things to arabic leads to subjective bias (though unsure whether this is due to the translators being dishonest and biased or whether it is a fault with the language). I heard there is a different arabic version of the bible which is a little more clear ( not sure).
The distance between Arab egyptians and Copts is different in different areas in Egypt. My aunt for example is very close with her muslim neighbours and they are very close friends. However, in the area where I lived, the people were 'civil' though not welcoming. And I stood out as 'the christian one'.
The 'Arab' culture has definitely polluted the lives of Coptic people over the years. You find many Copts who are not very educated copying muslim things. For instance, female genital mutilation and underage marriages as soon as a girl reaches puberty. They are crimes yet these things are now 'normal' because it is all around them.
Don't forget that not all people live in the developed cities like Cairo or Alexandria. There are still a lot of 'simple' people in upper egypt, in the countryside, in villages.
[quote author=mnc_hnn link=topic=13966.msg161652#msg161652 date=1354461164]
For a person who was born and raised in Egypt, I felt a complete stranger in my own country. I felt unwanted where I was and I am more comfortable since I left.
Don't get me wrong, I miss it, but there is more bad than good so I can't be there. It's only getting worse and I feel sorry and helpless for the sake of the oppressed Copts in Egypt because most of them are TRAPPED in what is supposed to be their 'home country'
How sad to hear this.
I can understand you because we have alike problems in our provinces of Kosovo, Bosnia... etc.
Unfortunetally media in Serbia do not cover the events in Egypt and most of us are totally ignorant about real life in Egypt, although we know that Copts are oppressed, but nothing more than that.
[quote author=mnc_hnn link=topic=13966.msg161652#msg161652 date=1354461164]
However, the Arabic language curriculum included verses from the Quran which were compulsory to learn. I had to memorise them to recite in exams.
Dreadfull
[quote author=mnc_hnn link=topic=13966.msg161652#msg161652 date=1354461164]
I would have loved to speak Coptic instead.
You are young and for example you want't to learn it, is there a books ? CD's ? Coptic in 100 lections, for example ? Or, it is not so simple ?
I can understand you also here, because in 19th century Serbs mutilated they language with some western inspired reform. So, contemporary Serb can not read or understand most of middle age Serbian, but thanks to the Russians we have lots of books and we can learn it (in that time language was the same for two of us). Anyhow, in Serbia nobody learn it, but in Russia yes.
You are young and for example you want't to learn it, is there a books ? CD's ? Coptic in 100 lections, for example ? Or, it is not so simple ?
There are many resources available, both online and in books for learning Coptic. A quick selection:
http://www.coptic.net/copticweb/contributions/copticlanguagelessons.pdf
http://www.stshenouda.com/coptlang/coptlsnhtm.htm
http://www.christian-egypt.com/CopticLanguage4.htm
http://tinahti.net/coptic/
http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Coptic_in_20_Lessons.html?id=Y83UUpkdOMMC
http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Introduction_to_Sahidic_Coptic.html?id=ACnYTRXRg-8C
http://www.orthodoxbookstore.org/soyouwanttolearncoptic.aspx
There are many resources available, both online and in books for learning Coptic. A quick selection:
Thank's a lot! Great links!
I am not aware about problems where you are either?
Muslims in Serbian province of Kosovo burns down Orthodox church of Saint Sava in town Kosovska Mitrovica:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZaB5KUD5M0
I can see you already had a fruitful discussion with both mnc_hnn and JG. I will not answer points that they already did, because they gave good answers, but as someone who lived almost 28 years of my life in Egypt, I can add a couple of points that will be interesting to discuss between us all members of this forum, and not only with you...
Your questions are in bold, and my answers follow in the next paragraphs
Is Coptic language live only in Church texts ?
No. Coptic language is spoken by a very few families around the world, one of them is in Germany; Fr. Bigol, and the other in Rochester Fr. Shenouda's (as I understand) besides a very few minority in upper Egypt. There is however a vast amount of Coptic vocabulary in the Egyptian Arabic colloquial language which is still used to this very day by all Egyptians. Some of such have been degraded and given derogatory connotations by the attempts of Arabs to disdain the Coptic language and stop it from being used every day in previous eras; something which sadly have succeeded to a great extent.
Is there any contemporary Copts who can speak Coptic ?
I answered that above.
Do you feel Arab as your mother tongue ?
Arabic is my mother tongue insofar as only being the language understood by other Egyptians. The majority of Christians and certainly all muslims (except Coptologists, and those who study the Coptic language for other purposes) speak Arabic. As I said during the Turks era, and even before when Egypt was occupied by other forces, there had been burdens, and huge negativity for people to keep using the language of the land, and they were forced to use Arabic in businesses, schools, and every day interactions. Copts were mostly beaten in teh streets, sometimes had had their tongues cut off, and other forms of admonishment for using Coptic publicly. The language lived in monasteries, spoken by monks "privately" till the 17th century, but then ceased to exist as a communication since (or declined).
There are two points that I would like to add here: what is happening in today's Church is a matter in a way similar to the evil one's influences on Copts in those ages. That is to say that the Church is losing the Coptic language because people don't want it anymore, and it shouldn't be used. Also, the church authorities nowadays are not as keen or as scrupulous in wanting to keep the language. They just care about keeping the congregation happy, even at the expense of the language. And we all know what kind of mottos are used in these situations. I won't go there agian now.
Does the sharing the same language with Arabs make you closer to them or not ?
Doesn't make a great difference for reasons mnc_hnn already mentioned. You're still being oppressed, treated as second-class, and never given any high rank jobs in government, and the like, and people still long for Liturgies to be totally sung in Arabic, and NIL COPTIC. Yes, sad... end of days.
Does Copts have their own schools in Egypt or you are obliged to go together with Muslims ?
No. mnc_hnn answered already, but my addition is that there are Catholic Christian schools which are private to which muslims also go to. These may have originated because the Catholic Church doesn't depend on donations for financial purposes as does the Coptic church. Still, Christians would learn quran verses in the subject of Arabic language because these were compulsory.
Do the Copts have right to learn in schools basic of Coptic language and Coptic religion ?
Nope. There are religion classes however, and Christians are always chucked out of their classes during those, to find a space in the playground, or another unused classroom to study it, and then go back to their classes afterwards.
I'd hope that other members and not only Servos, mnc_hnn, and JG to join in.. hope this helps anyway... thanks
oujai qen `P[C
Are they Copts too ? Or are they Greeks ?
Because you call yourselves Orthodox, how do you call members of Greek Orthodox Church in Egypt ? Officialy and colloquialy, if there is an difference.
Do you see the Greek Orthodox Church in Egypt as an intruder or enemy ?
Does the state have the same treatment to Greek Orthodox Church and people as they have with Coptic Orthodox Church and people ?
In Egypt society are you two (Copts and Greeks) together and Muslims are the others, or you are divided in three (Copts, Muslims and Greeks) ?
let us know if u missed it and someone will paste the link again for you.
as we love him, we must love his children too!
:D
I have no idea about Greek orthodox in Egypt. But sounds cool. I really want to visit a Greek orthodox church sometime!
the word coptic = egyptian. so only Egyptian orthodox are called coptic orthodox. But it is merely an indication for location. Because all orthodox churches have the same beliefs.
The 'state' has the same treatment to all non-muslims. especially 'christians'. All 'christians' are treated badly. They don't care which christian sect it is. However, becaue the majority of christians in egypt are orthodox, most of the image of hatred is towards the coptic orthodox church and clergy.
since patriarch theodore 2nd of the EO church in alexandria gave a beautiful speech and yelled 'axios' at the enthronement of our patriarch tawadros (theodore) 2nd of the coptic church, we love him lots!
Yes, I saw that! I was surprised with how two patriarchs are cordial one to another.
It was also funny moment when he mentioned two Theodores :)
I also noticed that Greek Theodore had a special place in the Church, while all others non-Orientals Orthodox were in lines, the seat for our Theodore was in front of all and he seated alone himself. :)
Thank you Mnc_hnn :)
How much Coptic Church fast before Christmas ?
How do you fast before Christmas (Do you eat fish ? When ? Do you eat oil?) ?
Can someone tell me when is Coptic Christmas by western calendar ?
How much Coptic Church fast before Christmas ?
How do you fast before Christmas (Do you eat fish ? When ? Do you eat oil?) ?
Coptic Christmas is January 7th.
We fast 43 days before Christmas.
We fast from all dairy product, and we can eat fish (not on wednesdays and fridays though) and oil. An individual can also fast with no food at all for a certain amount of time that his Father of Confession assigns to him.
Coptic Christmas is January 7th.
We fast 43 days before Christmas.
We fast from all dairy product, and we can eat fish (not on wednesdays and fridays though) and oil. An individual can also fast with no food at all for a certain amount of time that his Father of Confession assigns to him.
Thanks :)
Completely the same like here. Interesting. :)
http://fakti.org/globotpor/quo-vadis-orbi/kairo-tvrddi-da-u-egiptu-zivi-5130000-kopta-a-kopti-da-ih-je-17-miliona
In short, this pro-Coptic article says that official Cairo claimed that there is 5.130.000 Copts in Egypt, but that Copts themselves says that there is 17 million Copts in Egypt. Article support claims of Copts and says that the Government hides the real number of 17 millions.
So if anyone wants to comment this numbers. Do we know how many Copts lives in Egypt ?
about 15-20% of the population
Just to be fair and accurate. There is no evidence for a 15-20% claim. Most articles I have read say 8-17%. But without an actual census report, we cannot substantiate any number with any real credibility.
[quote author=mnc_hnn link=topic=13966.msg161831#msg161831 date=1355139800]
about 15-20% of the population
Just to be fair and accurate. There is no evidence for a 15-20% claim. Most articles I have read say 8-17%. But without an actual census report, we cannot substantiate any number with any real credibility.
The government deliberately quotes a much smaller percentage.
The church has a more accurate quote.
God be with the christians in egypt. They would either migrate or get killed by the cruelty
The church has a more accurate quote.
How does anyone verify this? How do we know what the Church has?Is it available? Is it reliable? How was it reached? There have been many attempts to make a Coptic census but nothing that has materialized into a reliable and accurate figure. We don't really know how many Copts are in the US where there is a census. Any figure from Egypt will likely be skewed. If there is a reliable accurate figure out there, how can we access it and how was it reached?
Is it truth that Copts do not eat pork ?
We eat pork
we do.
but we don't like to talk about it during the Christmas fast!
:o
;)
just kidding; i don't like it that much, so it hasn't made me too sad to miss it in the fast!
We, Dyophysites, in VI century rejected some of his teachings.
But it was after Chalcedon, so does anybody knows the Coptic Church position about Origen ?