Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
Tenen
Hello,
Could you please tell me what does anba rafael says in the second verse of the hymn tenen in this link :
Because in my psalmodia the text is not the same in the second verse except the moment where there are subtitles ("ton somaton angelos ghar...")
If you could explain me this it would be great :)
Thanks
Could you please tell me what does anba rafael says in the second verse of the hymn tenen in this link :
Because in my psalmodia the text is not the same in the second verse except the moment where there are subtitles ("ton somaton angelos ghar...")
If you could explain me this it would be great :)
Thanks
Comments
But thanks for answering
There is still the mystery about the lyrics in my psalmodia, but I guess it will remain unsolved... :)
Thanks very much !
There is still the mystery about the lyrics in my psalmodia, but I guess it will remain unsolved... :)
There are two source for that part, etrion....Remenkimi (George) can shed some light....pm him. What i have in the link below is according to HICS recording...atleast i think so.
My theory is that both versions are unique examples of Bohairic/Sahidic/Greek atypical bilingualism. The DSB version came first. Unable to reconcile the aberrations in the DSB Coptic text, some Arabic translators tried to get a "close enough" translation. If one examines the actual DSB text to the Arabic translation, one will find a large discrepancy. (It's not even close). Other Arabic translators (starting with Rafael Tuki in the 17th century) simply replaced the Coptic text with new Coptic text that is much more grammatically correct in Greek. Claudius Labib's annual and Kiahk Psalmody follow Tuki's. All modern psalmodias follow Labib and Tuki.
If on the other hand, one recognizes the bilingualism and reexamines the DSB text, while standardizing it to modern Greek/Coptic, one can arrive at a modified text and translation that makes much more sense than the Arabic translation.
So what we are left with is this
Problem 1. A DSB text that is grammatical divergent to standard Greek/Coptic.
Solution 1. Replace the text with grammatically standard Greek/Coptic (which is what Tuki did)
Problem 2. An Arabic translation that is divergent from the original Coptic text.
Solution 2. Acknowledge that Arabic is not the original, important source and look for a new translation that better fits the DSB text.
Problem 3. Two Coptic texts for the same hymn.
Solution 3. No good solution. Currently, people simply sing the more popular one (DSB) but fail to recognize the shortcomings of DSB and simultaneously ignore the more grammatically correct version (RT). In hindsight, I guess we could have avoided this problem if Tuki and others didn't choose the easy way out and make new texts because they couldn't understand the original. God only knows.
This is more information than you probably wanted. I hope it clarifies things.
Just a small question, why is it that most of the churches only sing Tenen in Kiahk? Is not it an annual hymn?
I think if you look back historically, it has been reserved exclusively for Kiahk. It is only nowadays that people like it and some churches decided to say it throughout the year.
Bishop Youssef in his CYC series last Kiahk (Life of Praise, or something like that), says that he prefers Tenen not to be said outside of Kiahk.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13972.msg162020#msg162020 date=1355598686]
Just a small question, why is it that most of the churches only sing Tenen in Kiahk? Is not it an annual hymn?
I think if you look back historically, it has been reserved exclusively for Kiahk. It is only nowadays that people like it and some churches decided to say it throughout the year.
Bishop Youssef in his CYC series last Kiahk (Life of Praise, or something like that), says that he prefers Tenen not to be said outside of Kiahk.
Did he mention a reason?
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13972.msg162020#msg162020 date=1355598686]
Just a small question, why is it that most of the churches only sing Tenen in Kiahk? Is not it an annual hymn?
I think if you look back historically, it has been reserved exclusively for Kiahk. It is only nowadays that people like it and some churches decided to say it throughout the year.
Bishop Youssef in his CYC series last Kiahk (Life of Praise, or something like that), says that he prefers Tenen not to be said outside of Kiahk.
I like this. Hymns and rites are much more appreciated when they are done occasionally in specific times. I also add this it is also in the rite of Bright Saturday.
[quote author=qawe link=topic=13972.msg162023#msg162023 date=1355616067]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13972.msg162020#msg162020 date=1355598686]
Just a small question, why is it that most of the churches only sing Tenen in Kiahk? Is not it an annual hymn?
I think if you look back historically, it has been reserved exclusively for Kiahk. It is only nowadays that people like it and some churches decided to say it throughout the year.
Bishop Youssef in his CYC series last Kiahk (Life of Praise, or something like that), says that he prefers Tenen not to be said outside of Kiahk.
Did he mention a reason?
From memory, not really. He just asserted that it's supposed to be said only in Kiahk (and Bright Saturday, thanks for the correction mina, I think HG may have neglected to mention this on CYC, though), and he doesn't like it when it is said outside of that time.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13972.msg162024#msg162024 date=1355617107]
[quote author=qawe link=topic=13972.msg162023#msg162023 date=1355616067]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13972.msg162020#msg162020 date=1355598686]
Just a small question, why is it that most of the churches only sing Tenen in Kiahk? Is not it an annual hymn?
I think if you look back historically, it has been reserved exclusively for Kiahk. It is only nowadays that people like it and some churches decided to say it throughout the year.
Bishop Youssef in his CYC series last Kiahk (Life of Praise, or something like that), says that he prefers Tenen not to be said outside of Kiahk.
Did he mention a reason?
From memory, not really. He just asserted that it's supposed to be said only in Kiahk (and Bright Saturday, thanks for the correction mina, I think HG may have neglected to mention this on CYC, though), and he doesn't like it when it is said outside of that time.
To add to this, most psalmodies say to only say during those times. It is very clear actually. It speaks about being presented as a 'rational sacrifice' to the Lord either in praise or in the literal act the youth accepted. Kiahk is the month of praise we are performing 'the sacrifice of praise' and in Bright Saturday we mention all those who lived through being presented as sacrifices or being in tribulation and the Lord has saved them from them, hence all the old testament stories read on that same night.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13972.msg162034#msg162034 date=1355679383]
To add to this, most psalmodies say to only say during those times. It is very clear actually. It speaks about being presented as a 'rational sacrifice' to the Lord either in praise or in the literal act the youth accepted. Kiahk is the month of praise we are performing 'the sacrifice of praise' and in Bright Saturday we mention all those who lived through being presented as sacrifices or being in tribulation and the Lord has saved them from them, hence all the old testament stories read on that same night.
Does that mean we only offer ourselves as a living sacrifice during Kiahk and Bright Saturday tasbeha only and not during the year-round tasbeha?
Cantor Ibrahim Ayad, the Higher Institute of Coptic Studies (HICS), and the Heritage of the Coptic Orthodox Church (HCOC) Choir record Tenen in the annual rites of tasbeha. Albair teaches that too and his source is Cantor Mikhail himself.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13972.msg162034#msg162034 date=1355679383]
To add to this, most psalmodies say to only say during those times. It is very clear actually. It speaks about being presented as a 'rational sacrifice' to the Lord either in praise or in the literal act the youth accepted. Kiahk is the month of praise we are performing 'the sacrifice of praise' and in Bright Saturday we mention all those who lived through being presented as sacrifices or being in tribulation and the Lord has saved them from them, hence all the old testament stories read on that same night.
Does that mean we only offer ourselves as a living sacrifice during Kiahk and Bright Saturday tasbeha only and not during the year-round tasbeha?
why do we always have to take it to one extreme or another?! Kiahk is the month of praise......we praise Christ and the Virgin A LOTTT in it.....does that mean out praise means nothing during the rest of days in the year?! ya3ny compare the 2 hours of an annual midnight praise to Kiahks's 3-4 hours of vespers praise and 5 hours of midnight praise (and that's for one night of praise and not the 7&4 that sometimes a whole night is not enough for all the praises)....it's nothing.
Each occasion, EACH DAY, sometimes each hour (like in holy week) is emphasized in a unique way for a reason. our fathers put that structure in place. why do we ignore it and say 'what we want'?!