Kiahk 1st Week Gospel Response

kyrollos faheem

Hello everyone,

I was looking at the hymns for the month of Kiahk and I saw two different versions of the gospel response by two prominent sources; HICS and Cantor Gad Lewis, and I wanted to know if they are newly discovered gospel responses and how come it is different than the one that Cantor Ibrahim Ayad says.

Cantor Ibrahim Ayad
http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Fasts/Nativity/Ibrahim_Ayad/17.gospel_response12.11.mp3

HICS
http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Fasts/Nativity/Higher_Institute_of_Coptic_Studies/Part_4/04.A_Epshois_Orp_Enghabriel.1462.mp3

Cantor Gas Lewis
http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Fasts/Nativity/Cantor_Gad_Lewis/Liturgy.html

minatasgeel

http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/cat/55

kyrollos faheem

My question is who is right because Cantor Gad was recommended by Cantor Ibrahim to teach in the Dedymos Institute.

minatasgeel

it's not about who is right or wrong. it's about the source of the text. In the khmit shamas (m Farag for sure and MAYBE nahdet el-kanaies) There are only two responses. in Tarteeb Elbe3a, a rare book that imikhail references a LOT....there are gospel responses for every sunday (matins, vespers and liturgy). so the other responses are from there.

Remnkemi

I just found out I have an old manuscript that has a fragment of Tarteeb elbe3a (probably late 19th century). It has a lot of responses. Additionally, I found out that a few universities have Bishop Samuel's 2000 edition of Tarteeb elbe3a. So it's not really that rare.

RamezM

Rem,

Part 1 and 2 of Bishop Samuel's Chuch Order is available online, though in very poor quality.

I have just recently decided to start chanting the variable Gospel responses for kiahk, translated to English from the Coptic/Arabic text of Bishop Samuel. Note that Bishop Samuel's book is a collation of various manuscripts, and verses lined up in order come from very different centuries and locations.

As you might know about me, I feel strongly that what we need is careful, theologically-guided, selection of texts, with sober, fresh translation that is more than a mere literal translation of the Arabic or Coptic, and that also bears in mind the necessity of intelligibility in singing (avoiding awkward stops and stress...etc). In other words, I strongly urge those in charge of selecting hymns for the service to start thinking less in terms of "what does cantor so and so teach?" and more in terms of "what brings out the theological meaning behind the liturgical act best?" Our contemporary struggle for uniformity above all else totally misses the point, in my opinion.

Remnkemi

Ramez,
Can you please send us a link to the online version? I agree with everything else you wrote.

RamezM

Here is a link to a blog that has posted Books 1 and 2:

http://amirlatif92.blogspot.com/2012/11/tartib-al-baya.html

Also, here is a link to an Arabic article on the Gospel responses in the Coptic tradition written by Fr. Maqar Al-Baramusi. It talks about Alexandrian Biblical interpretation in general, followed by a suggestion of 4 different categories of Gospel responses in the Coptic tradition, with examples of each kind and a meditation. Sorry, I am not aware of any similar studies on the subject in English.

http://www.alexandriaschool.org/images/stories/Maradat_el_engil_fi_el_taks_el_kebty.pdf

Remnkemi

I just got an electronic copy of all three volumes. I'll review the online version with my new version. I know Volume 1 is printed, not handwritten like the online version. I'll get back to you after some research.

RamezM

If your version is in a better quality than the link i provided, can you please send a link as well?

minatasgeel

George....please send them to meee.
Ramez, that study doesn't have much of them....it's just a study.