[quote author=minasoliman link=topic=14334.msg163877#msg163877 date=1363738306] Did you go to the Russian Church in Strasbourg?
Hi Mina,
There is a coptic church in strasbourg that is still 3 hours away from us, but i'd have gone if the priest there was not on vacation. apparently, he was away on vacation in greece visiting eo churches. lol..
how ironic is that?? we are DYING to attend a Coptic Orthodox liturgy and have Holy Communion, we'd have travelled the 3 hours to avoid attending a Russian Church as we don't understand Russian, and the Coptic priest is visiting EO Churches.
Go figure!
What a mess.
No sir, the russian liturgy was in a catholic church. The RC church allows the Russians to pray in their church once a month.
Do you see my point a bit, Mina? Do you see how beautiful life would be if we could have just gone to the Catholic Church and had communion there? This division is killing. If we do not have communion often and wait this long, what are the effects on our spiritual lives? I feel the Holy Communion empowers us against sin and challenges of sin. I have experienced this.
This division is just plainly idiotic.
Can you imagine the idiocy of this situation? People who discuss, or meet to discuss, should come closer together. However, our church fathers got together and after talking ended up divided.
I get the feeling you feel others have let you down. Maybe not, but it wouldn't be fair anyway, as the church is still expanding and I guess this would take some degree of patience. It would probably be quicker than the OO and EO churches getting together so may have to wait until that day where you will travel 3 hours to take communion. Side note, every time I see Zoxsasi I start singing the communion hymn. lol
Are you blaming someone(s) for creating this "mess", and, if so, who?
Are you blaming someone(s) for failng to clean up this "mess", and, if so, who?
If none of these, what is the purpose behind this statement?
In Christ, qawe
I meant "what a mess this state of affairs we are in is". Its a mess.
After learning a bit about the breakups between the EO and OO, i cannot really blame the OO church for its position. As much as I'm fond of the Greek Churches, I do not know what led them to behave this way during the council of chalcedon.
And they haven't stopped.
If you go to http://www.OrthodoxInfo.com - this is run by an EO guy who is hell bent on making us look like heretics.
Why so much hatred??? Over semantics?? Isn't this enough already?
He's put us under monophysites and despite loads of Copts telling him we are NOT mono, he still insists on it.
I get the same drivel from other EO people: "You copts are heretics, but we admire how tied you are to the Christian faith".
Huh?
What tripe!
What hatred!!!
So, how on earth are we Monophysite? Can someone explain that??
By the way, the Russian Orthodox priest wants me to give him an essay on why we, as Copts, are heretical and the differences between us and him in order to continue going and accept receiving Holy Communion.
You'd think he'd ask me to take a Russian language exam instead as its probably more useful, or opera singing classes, but instead, he wants me to focus on the "truth".
Is this not hatred?
Please explain to me how on earth we are Monophysites?
I used to be in your situation somewhat. There was a church, Antiochian Greek Orthodox 50 miles away, and there's a Coptic Church 100 miles away. The nice thing is that the Antiochian priest was willing to give me communion, but upon taking permission from the Coptic bishop, he asked me to suck it up and drive the hundred miles.
That's obviously not as bad as 3 hours though. I'd say be patient, and perhaps visit the Copyic Church once a month. Try contacting headquarters for other sister churches. Sometimes churches from them are not listed on the Internet, and you'll never know unless you call them. Look for numbers for the diocese of Armenian or Syriac churches.
Yes, I share with you the sad state of disunity, but you cannot say this is killin the church. This may be making the congregants suffer, but not the church. Christ made a promise to the church, and you don't have to be a sophisticated or deep spiritual theologian to see that (and I'm a very ignorant person. I'm not theologian in the sense of the word. I just like reading).
My priest once told me set up the church in your house with regular prayers. Until the time comes when you can take your family to communion.
I don't know what else to tell you. But you're not alone in this world suffering front the same problems.
He's put us under monophysites and despite loads of Copts telling him we are NOT mono, he still insists on it.
I get the same drivel from other EO people: "You copts are heretics, but we admire how tied you are to the Christian faith".
Huh?
What tripe!
What hatred!!!
Dear Brother Zoxsasi,
Why so much bitterness? :)
When I want to acquainte myself with Coptic (or any other teachings) will I go to some obscure web pages or shall I read official statements of, first of all, bishops who are our teachers, and then other relevant persons.
Our bishops said:
[center]Joint Commission of the Theological Dialogue Between the Eastern Orthodox Church And the Oriental Orthodox Churches[/center]
The second meeting of the Joint Commission of the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches took place at the Anba Bishoy Monastery in Wadi-El-Natroun, Egypt from June 20th to 24th, 1989.
The official representative of the two families of the Orthodox Churches met in an atmosphere of warm cordiality and Christian brotherhood for four days at the guest house of the Patriarchal Residence at the Monastery, and experienced the gracious hospitality and kindness of the Coptic Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and his Church.
His Holiness Pope and Patriarch Shenouda addressed the opening session of the meeting and appealed to the participants to find a way to restore communion between the two families of the Churches. The participants also traveled to Cairo to listen to the weekly address of Pope Shenouda to the thousands of the faithful in the Great Cathedral of Cairo. Pope Shenouda also received the participants in his residence later.
The twenty-three participants came from thirteen countries and represented thirteen Churches. The main item for consideration was the report of the Joint Sub-Committee of six theologians on the problems of terminology and interpretation of Christological dogmas today. The meetings were co-chaired by his Eminence Metropolitan Damaskinos of Switzerland and His Grace Bishop Bishoy of Damiette. In his response to Pope Shenouda, Metropolitan Damaskinos appealed to the participants to overcome the difficulties caused by differences of formulation. Words should serve and express the essence, which is our common search for restoration of full communion. “This division is an anomaly, a bleeding wound in the body of Christ, a wound which according to His wills that we humbly serve, must be healed.”
A small drafting group composed of Metropolitan Paulos Mar Gregorios of New Delhi, Professor Vlassios Phidas, Prof. Fr. John Romanides, Prof. Dimitroff, and Mr. Joseph Moris Faltas produced a brief statement of faith based on the report of the Joint Sub-Committee, in which the common Christological convictions of the two sides were expressed. This statement, after certain modifications, was adopted by the Joint Commission for transmission to our Churches, for their approval as an expression for our common faith, on the way to restoration of full communion between the two families of Churches. The statement follows:
Agreed Statement
We have inherited from our fathers in Christ the one apostolic faith and tradition, though as Churches we have been separated from each other for centuries. As two families of Orthodox Churches long out of communion with each other we now pray and trust in God to restore that communion on the basis of common apostolic faith of the undivided Church of the first centuries which we confess in our common creed. What follows is a simple reverent statement of what we do believe, on our way to restore communion between our two families of Orthodox Churches.
Throughout our discussions we have found our common ground in the formula of our common father, St. Cyril of Alexandria, and his dictum that “it is sufficient for the confession of our true and irreproachable faith to say and to confess that the Holy Virgin is Theotokos” (Hom: 15, cf. Ep. 39).
Great indeed is the wonderful mystery of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one True God, one ousia in three hypostases or three prosopa. Blessed be the Name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.
Great indeed is also the ineffable mystery of the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, for us and our salvation.
The Logos, eternally consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit in His Divinity, has in these last days become incarnate of the Holy Spirit and Blessed Virgin Mary Theotokos, and thus became man, consubstantial with us in His humanity but without sin. He is true God and true man at the same time, perfect in His Divinity, perfect in His humanity. Because the One she bore in her womb was at the same time fully God as well as fully human, we call her the Blessed Virgin Theotokos.
When we speak of the one composite hypostasis of our Lord Jesus Christ, we do not say that in Him a divine hypostasis came together. It is that the one eternal hypostasis of the Second Person of the Trinity has assumed our created human nature in that act uniting it with His own uncreated divine nature, to form an inseparably united real divine-human being, the natures being distinguished from each other in contemplation only.
The hypostasis of the Logos before the Incarnation, even with His divine nature, is of course not composite. The same hypostasis, as distinct from nature, of the Incarnate Logos is not composite either. The unique theandric person of Jesus Christ is one eternal hypostasis who has assumed human nature by Incarnation. So we call that hypostasis composite, on account of the natures which are united to form one composite unity. It is not the case that our fathers used physis and hypostasis always interchangeably and confused the one with the other. The term hypostasis can be used to denote both the person as distinct from nature, and also the person with the nature, for a hypostasis never in fact exists without a nature.
It is the same hypostasis of the Second Person of the Trinity, eternally begotten from the Father, who in these last days became a human being and was born of the Blessed Virgin. This is the mystery of the hypostatic union we confess in humble adoration - the real union of the divine with the human, with all the properties and functions of the uncreated divine nature, including natural will and natural energy, inseparably and unconfusedly united with the created human nature with all its properties and functions, including natural will and natural energy. It is the Logos Incarnate who is the subject of all the willing and acting of Jesus Christ.
We agree in condemning the Nestorian and Eutychian heresies. We neither separate nor divide the human nature in Christ from His divine nature, nor do we think that the former was absorbed in the latter and thus ceased to exist.
The four adverbs used to qualify the mystery of the hypostatic union belong to our common tradition – without commingling (or confusion), without change, without separation and without division. Those among us who speak of two natures in Christ do not thereby deny their inseparable, indivisible union; those among us who speak of one united divine-human nature in Christ do not thereby deny the continuing dynamic presence in Christ of the divine and the human, without change, without confusion.
Our mutual agreement is not limited to Christology, but encompasses the whole faith of the one undivided Church of the early centuries. We are agreed also in our understanding of the Person and Work of God the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father alone, and is always adored with the Father and the Son.
The Joint Commission also appointed a Joint Sub-Committee for Pastoral Problems between the Churches of the two families, composed of the following ten persons:
Metropolitan Damaskinos, Co-President, ex officio Bishop Bishoy, Co-President, ex officio Prof. Vlassios Phidas, Co-Secretary, ex officio Bishop Mesrob Krikorian, Co-Secretary, ex officio Metropolitan Georges Khordr of Mt. Liban Metropolitan Petros of Axum Prof. Gosevic (Serbia) Prof. Dr. K.M. George (India) A nominee of Patriarch Ignatius Zaka Iwas of Syria Metropolitan Gregorios of Shoa
This Joint Sub-Committee will have its first meeting from December 5th to 9th in Anba Bishoy Monastery and will prepare a report for the next meeting of the Joint Commission.
It was also decided that the next meeting of the Joint Commission would be held in September 1990 at Chambésy, Geneva, to consider:
The report of the Joint Sub-Committee on Pastoral Problems Conciliar formulations and anathemas. Historical factors Interpretation of Christological dogmas today Future steps
It was also decided that the name of the Joint Commission would be the Joint Commission of the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches.
[center]Joint Commission of the Theological Dialogue Between the Eastern Orthodox Church And the Oriental Orthodox Churches [/center] [center]SECOND AGREED STATEMENT[/center]
Orthodox Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate Chambésy, Geneva, Switzerland September 23-28, 1990
Introduction
The third meeting of the Joint Commission of the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches took place at the Orthodox Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Chambésy, Geneva, from September 23rd to 28th, 1990.
The official representatives of the two families of the Orthodox Churches and their advisors met in an atmosphere of prayerful waiting on the Holy Spirit and warm, cordial, Christian brotherly affection. We experienced the gracious and generous hospitality of His Holiness Patriarch Dimitrios I, through His Eminence Metropolitan Damaskinos of Switzerland in the Orthodox Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. We were also received at two grand receptions, one at the residence of Metropolitan Damaskinos and the other at the residence of His Excellency Mr. Kerkinos, the ambassador of Greece to the United Nations, and Mrs. Kerkinos.
The thirty-four participants came from Austria, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czechoslovakia, Egypt, Ethiopia, Finland, Greece, India, Lebanon, Poland, Switzerland, Syria, U.K., U.S.A., U.S.S.R., and Yugoslavia. The six days of meetings were co-chaired by His Eminence Metropolitan Damaskinos of Switzerland and His Grace Metropolitan Bishoy of Damiette. His Eminence Metropolitan Damaskinos in his inaugural address exhorted the participants to “work in a spirit of humility, brotherly love and recognition” so that “the Lord of Faith and Head of His Church” will guide us by the Holy Spirit on the speedier way towards unity and communion.
The meeting received two reports, one from its Theological Sub-Committee, which met at the Orthodox Center, Chambésy, and the other from its Sub-Committee on Pastoral Relations, which met at the Anba Bishoy Monastery, Egypt. The following papers, which had been presented to the Theological Sub-Committee, were distributed to the participants:
“Dogmatic Formulations and Anathemas by Local and Ecumenical Synods within their Social Context,” Rev. Prof. John S. Romanides, Church of Greece. “Anathemas and Conciliar Decisions-Two Issues to be Settled for Restoration of Communion among Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Churches,” Dr. Paulos Mar Gregorios, Metropolitan of Delhi, Orthodox Syrian Church of the East. “Historical Factors and the Council of Chalcedon,” Rev. Fr. T. Y. Malaty, Coptic Orthodox Church. “Historical Factors and the Terminology of the Synod of Chalcedon,” Prof. Dr. Vlassios Phidas, Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria. “Interpretaion of Christological Dogmas Today,” Metropolitan George Khodr, Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch. “Interpretaion of Christological Dogmas Today,” Bishop Mesrob Krikorian, Armenian Apostolic Church of Etchmiadzin.
The six papers and the two Sub-Committee reports, along with the “Summary of Conclusions” of the Fourth Unofficial Conversation at Addis Ababa which was appended to the reports of the Theological Sub-Committee, formed the basis of our intensive and friendly discussion on the issues and actions to be taken. A drafting committee composed of Metropolitan George Khodr, Metrolpolitan Paulos Mar Gregorios, Archbishop Keshishian, Archbishop Garma, Rev. Prof. John Romanides, Metropolitan Matta Mar Eustathius, Prof. Ivan Dimitrov, with Prof. V. Phidas and Bishop Krikorian as co-secretaries, produced the draft for the Second Agreed Statement and Recommendations to Churches. Another drafting committee composed of Prof. Papavassiliou, Bishop Christoforos, Metropolitan Paulos Mar Gregorios and Liqaselttanat Habtemariam, with Fr. Dr. George Dragas as secretary, produced the draft for the Recommendations on Pastoral Issues.
The following is the text of the unanimously approved Second Agreed Statement and Recommendations.
Second Agreed Statement and Recommendations to the Churches
The first Agreed Statement on Christology adopted by the Joint Commission of the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, at our historic meeting at the Anba Bishoy Monastary, Egypt, from 20th to 24th June1989, forms the basis of this Second Agreed Statement on the following affirmations of our common faith and understanding, and recommendations on steps to be taken for the communion of our two families of Churches in Jesus Christ our Lord, who prayed “that they all may be one.”
Both families agreed in condemning the Eutychian heresy. Both families confess that the Logos, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, only begotten by the Father before the ages and consubstantial with him, was incarnate and was born from the Virgin Mary Theotokos; fully consubstantial with us, perfect man with soul, body and mind; He was crucified, died, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the Heavenly Father, where He sits on the right hand of the Father as Lord of all creation. At Pentecost, by the coming of the Holy Spirit, He manifested the Church as His Body. We look forward to His coming again in the fullness of His glory, according to the Scriptures. Both families condemn the Nestorian heresy and the crypto-Nestorianism Theodoret of Cyrus. They agree that it is not sufficient merely to say that Christ is consubstantial both with His Father and with us, by nature God and by nature man; it is necessary to affirm also that the Logos, who is by nature God, became by nature man, by His Incarnation in the fullness of time. Both families agree that the hypostasis of the Logos became composite by uniting to His divine uncreated nature with its natural will and energy, which He has in common with the Father and the Holy Spirit, created human nature, which He assumed at the incarnation and made his own.
Pastoral Agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria 2001
Since the Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa have already accepted the outcome of the official dialogue on Christology between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, including the two official agreements: the first on Christology signed in June 1989 in Egypt and the second also on Christology and on the lifting of anathemas and restoration of full communion signed in Geneva 1990, in which it is stated that "In the light of our agreed statement on Christology..., we have now clearly understood that both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of Apostolic tradition". It was agreed to have mutual recognition of the sacrament of Baptism, based on what St Paul wrote, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph 4:5)
But since up until now we are waiting for the responses of the Holy Synods of some other churches in both families, the restoration of full communion is not yet reached between the two sides of the bi-lateral dialogue. And due to the pastoral consequences and implications caued by mixed Christian marriages between the members of the two Patriarchates of Alexandria, having the majority of their people living in the same countries. Those marriages being difficult to perform in both Churches at the same time or in concelebration. The result is that mant sensitivities are created between the two families of the partners of such marriage. Those sensitivities which can extend even after the marriage and may affect the relation between the two communities of churches.
For those mentioned reasons, the Holy Synods of both Patriarchates have agreed to accept the sacrament of marriage which is conducted in either Church with the condition that it is conducted for two partners not belonging to the same Patriarchate of the other Church from their origin. Both the Bride and the Groom should carry a valid certificate from his/her own Patriarchate that he/she has a permit of marriage and indicating the details of his/her marriage status up to date.
Each of the two Patriarchates shall also accept to perform all of its other sacraments to that new family of Mixed Christian Marriage.
It is agreed that the Patriarchate which shall perform the marriage shall be responsible for any marriage problems that may happen concerning this certain marriage, taking into consideration the unified marriage laws signed by the heads of Churches in Egypt in the year 1999.
Each Patriarchate shall preserve its right not to give its sacraments to any persons whom she does not find fulfilling its canons according to the Apostolic Tradition.
Petros VII Shenouda III Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa [right]Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of the See of St Mark[/right]
We must have in mind that we are separated for 1.500 years. It can not be done at once. It is a process. Thanks God, our two patriarchs are good friends and I'm sure they will do more to promote dialog in the future.
[quote author=Servos link=topic=14334.msg163894#msg163894 date=1363785693] We must have in mind that we are separated for 1.500 years. It can not be done at once. It is a process. Thanks God, our two patriarchs are good friends and I'm sure they will do more to promote dialog in the future.
I prefer to learn Greek than Russian. I've done my part. I'm integration ready. I eat Tzaziki and know Agios Otheos by heart. I AM UNITY READY.
I've made a lot of Greek friends also.. They feel they are missing out on great Egyptian Cuisine they can participate in if they came to our Church. They are also unity ready.
Why so much bitterness? Because our priest was kicked out of a church in Greece because a monk there told him he should repent from his heretical ways. Then I go to a website and see that other EO's think the same way.
Is this NOT hatred?? Over a council which makes absolutely NO difference to anyone?
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=14334.msg163897#msg163897 date=1363794297] [quote author=Servos link=topic=14334.msg163894#msg163894 date=1363785693] We must have in mind that we are separated for 1.500 years. It can not be done at once. It is a process. Thanks God, our two patriarchs are good friends and I'm sure they will do more to promote dialog in the future.
I prefer to learn Greek than Russian. I've done my part. I'm integration ready. I eat Tzaziki and know Agios Otheos by heart. I AM UNITY READY.
I've made a lot of Greek friends also.. They feel they are missing out on great Egyptian Cuisine they can participate in if they came to our Church. They are also unity ready.
Why so much bitterness? Because our priest was kicked out of a church in Greece because a monk there told him he should repent from his heretical ways. Then I go to a website and see that other EO's think the same way.
Is this NOT hatred?? Over a council which makes absolutely NO difference to anyone?
Well, Zoxsasi, why not read about the council? You seem to know some good basic knowledge about it, but did you delve deeper into understanding why we think the way we do and why they think the way they do?
Look, after reading more about the council, it wasn't easy making the same conclusion as you. Some people even lost their Christian faith due to reading more about the council. So, I think you should at least come from a state of understanding and humility rather than frustration about the whole disunity. The council is a serious issue, and healing takes a loooong time to occur. Forgive the priest his ignorance and move on.
I will try and learn more about the reason we were against this council.
My frustration is still merited - but its not only against the Coptic Church or the EO's. The COC is primarily innocent in this. Its against the Catholics most of all. I have a REALLY hard time having communion there due to the extent of differences.
Even if i were to understand and have perfect theology, and the perfect Orthodox faith, i'd be alone without a Church and without Holy Communion.
Frustration and anger can take our focus form the greatness of God to the greatness of the problem we face. God gives us each a cross to carry so that we can learn through patience and suffering. Remember how long our father Abraham waited before having a son.
Brother Zoxsasi, let me share with you three true stories that I find to be encouraging:
1) A while ago there was a Coptic family in an area where there was no Orthodox church. The head of this family refused to take his family to other churches for fear of having his children converted. Therefore, every Sunday just as though they are going to church, they will take a shower and put on their best dress. Then they stand in front of their TV to attend the live transmitted liturgy. They lived like this for many years.
2) In his autobiography, Bishop Antonios Markos, Bishop of Africa, narrates a story that happened in South Africa. When he went to South Africa to buy a property for the church he came upon a property that was a mission site of the Greek Orthodox Church. However, this site was no longer in use and its custodian was an old Greek Orthodox lady that lived with her children. The children had pressured their mom for many years to sell the property and use the profit but the woman refused saying she will only sell it to an Orthodox person to be used for the service of God. This went on for many years. Finally, Bishop Antonios Markos knocked at the door of this old lady, her years of waiting for the Lord patiently paid off for God granted her what she wished for.
3) Once a Coptic man went to the Island of Fiji where there was no Orthodox Church. There weren’t even Coptic families in that island. This man started a Bible study meeting and started teaching people about Orthodoxy. After many years of labour many people took interest and wanted to become Orthodox. The man notified the Coptic Church about the situation. After considering the issue at depth it was decided that he should be ordained priest and start the first church in Fiji.
Brother Zoxsasi, I don’t believe that we who live in the diaspora are migrants but rather missionaries. Just as the Apostles scattered after the first persecution that started in Acts 7 and everywhere they went they spread the word of God; so, we who have left our home land for different reasons should use this opportunity to spread the word of God.
I hope you will forgive me for speaking regarding virtues I practice very little off. We are in this together and God is with us too.
Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Psalm 27:14
Our Bishop stressed that point that we are missionaries just a couple of weeks ago. The church in Fiji is just great and they are fantasic singers. Praise God that they are so blessed.
[quote author=Theophilus 1 link=topic=14334.msg163905#msg163905 date=1363865151] Frustration and anger can take our focus form the greatness of God to the greatness of the problem we face. God gives us each a cross to carry so that we can learn through patience and suffering. Remember how long our father Abraham waited before having a son.
Brother Zoxsasi, let me share with you three true stories that I find to be encouraging:
1) A while ago there was a Coptic family in an area where there was no Orthodox church. The head of this family refused to take his family to other churches for fear of having his children converted. Therefore, every Sunday just as though they are going to church, they will take a shower and put on their best dress. Then they stand in front of their TV to attend the live transmitted liturgy. They lived like this for many years.
2) In his autobiography, Bishop Antonios Markos, Bishop of Africa, narrates a story that happened in South Africa. When he went to South Africa to buy a property for the church he came upon a property that was a mission site of the Greek Orthodox Church. However, this site was no longer in use and its custodian was an old Greek Orthodox lady that lived with her children. The children had pressured their mom for many years to sell the property and use the profit but the woman refused saying she will only sell it to an Orthodox person to be used for the service of God. This went on for many years. Finally, Bishop Antonios Markos knocked at the door of this old lady, her years of waiting for the Lord patiently paid off for God granted her what she wished for.
3) Once a Coptic man went to the Island of Fiji where there was no Orthodox Church. There weren’t even Coptic families in that island. This man started a Bible study meeting and started teaching people about Orthodoxy. After many years of labour many people took interest and wanted to become Orthodox. The man notified the Coptic Church about the situation. After considering the issue at depth it was decided that he should be ordained priest and start the first church in Fiji.
Brother Zoxsasi, I don’t believe that we who live in the diaspora are migrants but rather missionaries. Just as the Apostles scattered after the first persecution that started in Acts 7 and everywhere they went they spread the word of God; so, we who have left our home land for different reasons should use this opportunity to spread the word of God.
I hope you will forgive me for speaking regarding virtues I practice very little off. We are in this together and God is with us too.
Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Psalm 27:14
In Christ Theophilus
These are such beautiful and empowering stories.
I often had the same feelings as you, that we are indeed missionaries of our faith. What worries me is that, as an Orthodox Christian, I am interested in the salvation of souls, not whether that person has become Orthodox or Catholic.
I just feel at times that its hard enough spreading Orthodoxy (its a hard enough battle in a secular society) as this secular world is against us, and then this pain is compounded because there are Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxes who are against us also.
How can we save souls and bring others to christ in this climate? Even better, how can we bring ourselves to be saved in this climate?
i don't want to sound cliched, but it's really about prayer and fasting. i have had my own minor spiritual struggles this week (partly related to my love of sleeping and daydreaming!) and it's hard when there is no one to tell you 'keep going, i know you think you are continually defeated, but keep going'.
but this is what Jesus meant in John 16:33 'in this world you will have troubles, but take courage, for I have overcome the world'. it's true God works in all the churches, but also He gives each of us a church group to work in. i personally believe God will lead very many people into the orthodox church, but it takes time, and until then, many people will remain in other churches.
this is not our concern. God knows what He is doing and when and why. our job is to press on despite the struggles and temptations, and leave our frustrations with God; treating our co believers with all love and patience; and as our brother Theophilus said: 'wait for the Lord, be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord'.
Just to add some perspective, I know a family who lived in Saudi Arabia for a job, and they lived there for five years, with no church in sight because it's illegal. So you're not alone in this world. Be strong and patient.
[quote author=minasoliman link=topic=14334.msg163914#msg163914 date=1363905895] Just to add some perspective, I know a family who lived in Saudi Arabia for a job, and they lived there for five years, with no church in sight because it's illegal. So you're not alone in this world. Be strong and patient.
Hey Mina,
One second there big guy. I really don't like to be compared to anyone living in Saudi arabia. I do not understand why Christians go there?? I'd be prefer ANY job outside - if its well known that u cannot have a Church there, and that you cannot even PRAY in your own homes there - why go? I do not respect this.
I am in Europe. Its not always easy to get a job in the same town, so I have to move around. I'm not sure if you are aware, but a lot of work is being done in China and India so to actually have a job anywhere in the EU is a blessing, if not a miracle.
All Im saying bro is that its a HUGE shame we are divided. I think had the Church fathers of ALL denominations seen where we'd be today, they'd have forgotten about the filoque and not even bothered with Chalcedon.
yeah, I changed my name because apparently its Dthoxsasi not zoxsasi
nothing wrong with us... and nothing wrong with them. Through the grace of God both Orthodoxies will become one soon... until then send him a message or give him a kind call explaining your situation, tell him as a pastor or as a father, he will be responsible for your blood and that of your family. the Vatican Pope is not allowing anyone to be turned from communion, you can proceed to partake in the catholic communion under the guidance of a Coptic priest (in reality you should be under the guidance of a Coptic priest with Russian or catholic communion). for the catholic Communion is an apostolic communion also, so you will be fine!
One hypotetical question :) If I go to Cairo to Coptic Orthodox Church, and I said to Coptic Orthodox priest: "I am Chalcedonian Serb (لكنيسة الصربية الأرثوذكسية) and I want to take your communion". What he will say?
[quote author=Servos link=topic=14334.msg163930#msg163930 date=1364028759] One hypotetical question :) If I go to Cairo to Coptic Orthodox Church, and I said to Coptic Orthodox priest: "I am Chalcedonian Serb (لكنيسة الصربية الأرثوذكسية) and I want to take your communion". What he will say?
It really differs from priest to priest. Some priests, like Fr Peter who used to moderate this forum, commune Chalcedonians and allow them to even serve as readers. Others do so only under certain circumstances. A fair few will never commune a Chalcedonian.
[quote author=Servos link=topic=14334.msg163930#msg163930 date=1364028759] One hypotetical question :) If I go to Cairo to Coptic Orthodox Church, and I said to Coptic Orthodox priest: "I am Chalcedonian Serb (لكنيسة الصربية الأرثوذكسية) and I want to take your communion". What he will say?
I would say that first it would depend if you're in Cairo for a short vacation or a long time. If it is short, the Coptic priest may give you communion. If it is long time, he would ask the bishop.
Generally, most Coptic clergy (at least those theologically minded) will consider what church you are coming from. If the Chalcedonian Serbian Orthodox Church does not condemn the Coptic Orthodox Church as heretics (both officially and unofficially), then he would allow communion especially for a short term period. In reality, most Coptic priests don't want to walk the fine blurry line and simply refuse to give communion for anyone outside the Oriental Orthodox families.
If one comes from a Protestant church, then it will never happen. The Catholic Church is unique. Since the Catholic Church will rarely refuse communion to a Copt or a Serbian, then it stands to reason that the same ecumenical love should be reciprocated. And that is why many Coptic priests don't rebaptize Catholics (just charismation). But I doubt any Coptic priest would give communion to a Catholic.
Now I will respond to your question by reversing it. What would happen if a Coptic Orthodox Christian wanted to take communion in Serbia, what will he say?
In our experiences, whether those like Zoxasi trying to take communion in Russian Church, or those who participate in Eastern Orthodox forums, we are constantly called monophysite heretics. Taken this into consideration, the answer to whether a Serb can take communion in Cairo or a Copt take communion in Serbia is not black and white.
But praise God. He has given us grace to address and make progress in the problem of Chalcedonian/Non-Chalcedonian intercommunion.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=14334.msg163910#msg163910 date=1363893759] i don't want to sound cliched, but it's really about prayer and fasting. i have had my own minor spiritual struggles this week (partly related to my love of sleeping and daydreaming!)
This has anything to do with the topic, but if you are sleeping and daydreaming involuntarily, I can guarantee you have obstructive sleep apnea. Get tested. 70-90% of Americans have it and are undiagnosed. It is not normal to have daytime sleepiness and daydreaming. People with normal sleep hygiene can't daydream even if they wanted to. Remember in Daniel 2, the fasting Hebrews were healthier than the non-fasting Babylonians. Fasting and prayer in a healthy body is a "little" easier to endure.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=14334.msg163933#msg163933 date=1364047930] In reality, most Coptic priests don't want to walk the fine blurry line and simply refuse to give communion for anyone outside the Oriental Orthodox families.
If one comes from a Protestant church, then it will never happen. The Catholic Church is unique. Since the Catholic Church will rarely refuse communion to a Copt or a Serbian, then it stands to reason that the same ecumenical love should be reciprocated. And that is why many Coptic priests don't rebaptize Catholics (just charismation). But I doubt any Coptic priest would give communion to a Catholic.
Now I will respond to your question by reversing it. What would happen if a Coptic Orthodox Christian wanted to take communion in Serbia, what will he say?
Since our identity is in Liturgy, Serbian Orthodox Church has no intercommunion with anyone who are out of the structure of Constantinople Patriarch.
Identity of Roman Catholics, if I may to over simplify, is in accepting Roman Pope. You can believe what ever you want, just accept Pope, and you can get communion. Therefore in Serbia every Serb can go to Roman Catholic Church in Serbia and they will give him communion, but, of course, no one Serb do that. Have in mind that in north Serbia we have big Roman Catholic minority, almost half a million. Have in mind also that we have lot of mixed marriages in north Serbia but kids from that mixed marriages must be baptized in Orthodox Church in order to have communion. If some Roman Catholic decide to become Orthodox in Serbia depends from local bishop what will happened. About 50 percent of bishops will demand just chrismation. About 30 percent of bishops will demand to be baptized again. About 10 percent of bishops will demand nothing. They will accept him as he is. They think that RC baptism is full valid.
Then, we have cases in Serbia of Chalcedonian churches who are in schism like Macedonian church or Ukranian Church. Millions of people support these churches and these churches have same dogmatic teaching with Serbian Church, but since they are in schism they can not take communion in Eastern Orthodox Churches, although they have same dogmatic and all other teaching and praxis as we do. Have in mind that in Serbia there is significant number of people from former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. They must to decide which church they will be member. They can not take communion in both churches.
Now I come to the Coptic Orthodox Church. Because we separated from you 1.500 years ago, and because we established our own Greek Alexandrian Patriarch and because for both of us, Copts and Serbs, our identity is in our Liturgy, I think we can not have intercommunion. I stress, I think that this is not question of heresy but of schism. And these two are different terms.
Servos, I always enjoy your input here. I thank God that you have been a shinning example of Serbian Orthodoxy and missionary. I would like to discuss a few things. I hope you recognize that we are alike in our thinking.
[quote author=Servos link=topic=14334.msg163938#msg163938 date=1364061247] Since our identity is in Liturgy, Serbian Orthodox Church has no intercommunion with anyone who are out of the structure of Constantinople Patriarch. So is identity specific to liturgy or liturgical worship or the identity specific to Constantinople? If it is the first, then as you said both the Serbian and Coptic Churches are liturgical and we should have intercommunion with no additional conditions. But if it is the latter, and loyalty to the Constantinoplian patriarchate is a requirement, then affiliation is more important than liturgical worship. And if you think about it, how is it any different from Roman Catholic loyalty to the Pope?
Put another way. Let's hypothetically assume the Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian faith was identical but there was no official subordination to Constantinople - and both Church identify with liturgical worship and faith - why should intercommunion be conditional to affiliation? I think we all believe it shouldn't. I bring this up to show that intercommunion is a complex issue.
Identity of Roman Catholics, if I may to over simplify, is in accepting Roman Pope. You can believe what ever you want, just accept Pope, and you can get communion.
This is not exactly true. There are Roman Catholic sects that officially claim loyalty to the Roman Pope but they are not officially Catholic because they endorse or insist on non-traditional changes, like female clergy or homosexuality.
Therefore in Serbia every Serb can go to Roman Catholic Church in Serbia and they will give him communion, but, of course, no one Serb do that. Have in mind that in north Serbia we have big Roman Catholic minority, almost half a million. Have in mind also that we have lot of mixed marriages in north Serbia but kids from that mixed marriages must be baptized in Orthodox Church in order to have communion. If some Roman Catholic decide to become Orthodox in Serbia depends from local bishop what will happened. About 50 percent of bishops will demand just chrismation. About 30 percent of bishops will demand to be baptized again. About 10 percent of bishops will demand nothing. They will accept him as he is. They think that RC baptism is full valid.
Interesting. I did say the Roman Catholic church is a unique situation. Obviously, Roman Catholic ecumenism is much more liberal than the Orthodox want. However, your observations somewhat agree with what I said about Coptic-Roman Catholic relationships.
Then, we have cases in Serbia of Chalcedonian churches who are in schism like Macedonian church or Ukranian Church. Millions of people support these churches and these churches have same dogmatic teaching with Serbian Church, but since they are in schism they can not take communion in Eastern Orthodox Churches, although they have same dogmatic and all other teaching and praxis as we do. Have in mind that in Serbia there is significant number of people from former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. They must to decide which church they will be member. They can not take communion in both churches.
I always learn something new from you. Thank you for this. The question that arises deals with why there is no intercommunion with Serbian and Macedonian Churches. You seem to say it is not really dogmatic or theological obstacles but affiliation again. I think the reason for the schism is more important than the result.
Now I come to the Coptic Orthodox Church. Because we separated from you 1.500 years ago, and because we established our own Greek Alexandrian Patriarch and because for both of us, Copts and Serbs, our identity is in our Liturgy, I think we can not have intercommunion. I stress, I think that this is not question of heresy but of schism. And these two are different terms.
So the question becomes, if we both have our identity in our liturgy, why was a Greek Alexandrian Patriarch formed in the first place? By creating a Greek Alexandrian patriarchate who showed allegiance to Chalcedon, the 5th & 6th century Chalcedonians have claimed liturgy and identity is not enough and those who do not pledge allegiance to Chalcedon (even if there are good reasons not to ally to Chalcedon), are not Orthodox and not Christian. The Joint declarations you posted say otherwise. They say, regardless of which Orthodox family your local church allies with, the faith is understood as the same. The mutual faith triumphs affiliation.
Now because intercommunion is a complex issue, we can't simply ignore or oversimplify Orthodox affiliation. But I think what Zoxasi has been saying all along is that theology and affiliation should come secondary to practical salvation and practical Christianity. But neither should practicality ignore theology and dogma.
First of all I apologize because my English is not good enaough to express me qualitative at such serios topics :)
I'll try to put it in this way:
The Church = Body of Christ = Body of Christ is consist from bishop + priests + deacons + believers = All of them gathered at Sunday offer bread and wine and by Gods grace that become Body and Blood of Christ himself = All of that gathered people constitute the Church so all of them take Christ's Blood and Body.
The Church is one and the Liturgy is one, although performed at different places (Belgrade, Moscow, New York...).
What make us one is that my bishop is recognized from neighboring bishops as such. You are right, there is no need to mention bishop of Constantinople.
If some bishop share the same teaching with me, same dogma, same praxis, if he has ortho praxia but is not recognized from my bishop (like Ukranian or Slavo-Macedonian) and neighboring bishops for any reasons, he and his priests and his believers are not part of that Liturgy we serve. Am I right at this?
So, you are recognized from your bishop, and your bishop form you, and neighboring bishops, and other bishops in the world, all of you gathered together - bishops and priest and deacons and believers are one Church.
We are another Church. Roman Cathloc are the third. Etc.
So for that reason I think, I don't say that I am right, I just think loud, for that reason we can not pretend like we offer one bread and wine when we offer 3 or more. His Hollines Patriarch Tawadros II one, Greek Theodore second, Roman Catholic priest in Cairo third.
Comments
Did you go to the Russian Church in Strasbourg?
Hi Mina,
There is a coptic church in strasbourg that is still 3 hours away from us, but i'd have gone if the priest there was not on vacation. apparently, he was away on vacation in greece visiting eo churches. lol..
how ironic is that?? we are DYING to attend a Coptic Orthodox liturgy and have Holy Communion, we'd have travelled the 3 hours to avoid attending a Russian Church as we don't understand Russian, and the Coptic priest is visiting EO Churches.
Go figure!
What a mess.
No sir, the russian liturgy was in a catholic church. The RC church allows the Russians to pray in their church once a month.
Do you see my point a bit, Mina? Do you see how beautiful life would be if we could have just gone to the Catholic Church and had communion there? This division is killing. If we do not have communion often and wait this long, what are the effects on our spiritual lives? I feel the Holy Communion empowers us against sin and challenges of sin. I have experienced this.
This division is just plainly idiotic.
Can you imagine the idiocy of this situation? People who discuss, or meet to discuss, should come closer together. However, our church fathers got together and after talking ended up divided.
You are saying "What a mess".
What is the purpose behind this statement?
Are you blaming someone(s) for creating this "mess", and, if so, who?
Are you blaming someone(s) for failng to clean up this "mess", and, if so, who?
If none of these, what is the purpose behind this statement?
In Christ,
qawe
I get the feeling you feel others have let you down. Maybe not, but it wouldn't be fair anyway, as the church is still expanding and I guess this would take some degree of patience. It would probably be quicker than the OO and EO churches getting together so may have to wait until that day where you will travel 3 hours to take communion.
Side note, every time I see Zoxsasi I start singing the communion hymn. lol
Dear Zoxsasi,
You are saying "What a mess".
What is the purpose behind this statement?
Are you blaming someone(s) for creating this "mess", and, if so, who?
Are you blaming someone(s) for failng to clean up this "mess", and, if so, who?
If none of these, what is the purpose behind this statement?
In Christ,
qawe
I meant "what a mess this state of affairs we are in is". Its a mess.
After learning a bit about the breakups between the EO and OO, i cannot really blame the OO church for its position. As much as I'm fond of the Greek Churches, I do not know what led them to behave this way during the council of chalcedon.
And they haven't stopped.
If you go to http://www.OrthodoxInfo.com - this is run by an EO guy who is hell bent on making us look like heretics.
Why so much hatred??? Over semantics?? Isn't this enough already?
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_mono.aspx
He's put us under monophysites and despite loads of Copts telling him we are NOT mono, he still insists on it.
I get the same drivel from other EO people: "You copts are heretics, but we admire how tied you are to the Christian faith".
Huh?
What tripe!
What hatred!!!
So, how on earth are we Monophysite? Can someone explain that??
By the way, the Russian Orthodox priest wants me to give him an essay on why we, as Copts, are heretical and the differences between us and him in order to continue going and accept receiving Holy Communion.
You'd think he'd ask me to take a Russian language exam instead as its probably more useful, or opera singing classes, but instead, he wants me to focus on the "truth".
Is this not hatred?
Please explain to me how on earth we are Monophysites?
50 miles away, and there's a Coptic Church 100 miles away. The nice thing is that the Antiochian priest was willing to give me communion, but upon taking permission from the Coptic bishop, he asked me to suck it up and drive the hundred miles.
That's obviously not as bad as 3 hours though. I'd say be patient, and perhaps visit the Copyic Church once a month. Try contacting headquarters for other sister churches. Sometimes churches from them are not listed on the Internet, and you'll never know unless you call them. Look for numbers for the diocese of Armenian or Syriac churches.
Yes, I share with you the sad state of disunity, but you cannot say this is killin the church. This may be making the congregants suffer, but not the church. Christ made a promise to the church, and you don't have to be a sophisticated or deep spiritual theologian to see that (and I'm a very ignorant person. I'm not theologian in the sense of the word. I just like reading).
My priest once told me set up the church in your house with regular prayers. Until the time comes when you can take your family to communion.
I don't know what else to tell you. But you're not alone in this world suffering front the same problems.
Of for goodness sake, just read this.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_mono.aspx
He's put us under monophysites and despite loads of Copts telling him we are NOT mono, he still insists on it.
I get the same drivel from other EO people: "You copts are heretics, but we admire how tied you are to the Christian faith".
Huh?
What tripe!
What hatred!!!
Dear Brother Zoxsasi,
Why so much bitterness? :)
When I want to acquainte myself with Coptic (or any other teachings) will I go to some obscure web pages or shall I read official statements of, first of all, bishops who are our teachers, and then other relevant persons.
Our bishops said:
[center]Joint Commission of the Theological Dialogue Between the Eastern Orthodox Church And the Oriental Orthodox Churches[/center]
[center]FIRST AGREED STATEMENT[/center]
Anba Mishoy Monastery
Wadi-El-Natroun, Egypt
June 20-24, 1989
Introduction
The second meeting of the Joint Commission of the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches took place at the Anba Bishoy Monastery in Wadi-El-Natroun, Egypt from June 20th to 24th, 1989.
The official representative of the two families of the Orthodox Churches met in an atmosphere of warm cordiality and Christian brotherhood for four days at the guest house of the Patriarchal Residence at the Monastery, and experienced the gracious hospitality and kindness of the Coptic Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and his Church.
His Holiness Pope and Patriarch Shenouda addressed the opening session of the meeting and appealed to the participants to find a way to restore communion between the two families of the Churches. The participants also traveled to Cairo to listen to the weekly address of Pope Shenouda to the thousands of the faithful in the Great Cathedral of Cairo. Pope Shenouda also received the participants in his residence later.
The twenty-three participants came from thirteen countries and represented thirteen Churches. The main item for consideration was the report of the Joint Sub-Committee of six theologians on the problems of terminology and interpretation of Christological dogmas today. The meetings were co-chaired by his Eminence Metropolitan Damaskinos of Switzerland and His Grace Bishop Bishoy of Damiette. In his response to Pope Shenouda, Metropolitan Damaskinos appealed to the participants to overcome the difficulties caused by differences of formulation. Words should serve and express the essence, which is our common search for restoration of full communion. “This division is an anomaly, a bleeding wound in the body of Christ, a wound which according to His wills that we humbly serve, must be healed.”
A small drafting group composed of Metropolitan Paulos Mar Gregorios of New Delhi, Professor Vlassios Phidas, Prof. Fr. John Romanides, Prof. Dimitroff, and Mr. Joseph Moris Faltas produced a brief statement of faith based on the report of the Joint Sub-Committee, in which the common Christological convictions of the two sides were expressed. This statement, after certain modifications, was adopted by the Joint Commission for transmission to our Churches, for their approval as an expression for our common faith, on the way to restoration of full communion between the two families of Churches. The statement follows:
Agreed Statement
We have inherited from our fathers in Christ the one apostolic faith and tradition, though as Churches we have been separated from each other for centuries. As two families of Orthodox Churches long out of communion with each other we now pray and trust in God to restore that communion on the basis of common apostolic faith of the undivided Church of the first centuries which we confess in our common creed. What follows is a simple reverent statement of what we do believe, on our way to restore communion between our two families of Orthodox Churches.
Throughout our discussions we have found our common ground in the formula of our common father, St. Cyril of Alexandria, and his dictum that “it is sufficient for the confession of our true and irreproachable faith to say and to confess that the Holy Virgin is Theotokos” (Hom: 15, cf. Ep. 39).
Great indeed is the wonderful mystery of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one True God, one ousia in three hypostases or three prosopa. Blessed be the Name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.
Great indeed is also the ineffable mystery of the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, for us and our salvation.
The Logos, eternally consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit in His Divinity, has in these last days become incarnate of the Holy Spirit and Blessed Virgin Mary Theotokos, and thus became man, consubstantial with us in His humanity but without sin. He is true God and true man at the same time, perfect in His Divinity, perfect in His humanity. Because the One she bore in her womb was at the same time fully God as well as fully human, we call her the Blessed Virgin Theotokos.
When we speak of the one composite hypostasis of our Lord Jesus Christ, we do not say that in Him a divine hypostasis came together. It is that the one eternal hypostasis of the Second Person of the Trinity has assumed our created human nature in that act uniting it with His own uncreated divine nature, to form an inseparably united real divine-human being, the natures being distinguished from each other in contemplation only.
The hypostasis of the Logos before the Incarnation, even with His divine nature, is of course not composite. The same hypostasis, as distinct from nature, of the Incarnate Logos is not composite either. The unique theandric person of Jesus Christ is one eternal hypostasis who has assumed human nature by Incarnation. So we call that hypostasis composite, on account of the natures which are united to form one composite unity. It is not the case that our fathers used physis and hypostasis always interchangeably and confused the one with the other. The term hypostasis can be used to denote both the person as distinct from nature, and also the person with the nature, for a hypostasis never in fact exists without a nature.
It is the same hypostasis of the Second Person of the Trinity, eternally begotten from the Father, who in these last days became a human being and was born of the Blessed Virgin. This is the mystery of the hypostatic union we confess in humble adoration - the real union of the divine with the human, with all the properties and functions of the uncreated divine nature, including natural will and natural energy, inseparably and unconfusedly united with the created human nature with all its properties and functions, including natural will and natural energy. It is the Logos Incarnate who is the subject of all the willing and acting of Jesus Christ.
We agree in condemning the Nestorian and Eutychian heresies. We neither separate nor divide the human nature in Christ from His divine nature, nor do we think that the former was absorbed in the latter and thus ceased to exist.
The four adverbs used to qualify the mystery of the hypostatic union belong to our common tradition – without commingling (or confusion), without change, without separation and without division. Those among us who speak of two natures in Christ do not thereby deny their inseparable, indivisible union; those among us who speak of one united divine-human nature in Christ do not thereby deny the continuing dynamic presence in Christ of the divine and the human, without change, without confusion.
Our mutual agreement is not limited to Christology, but encompasses the whole faith of the one undivided Church of the early centuries. We are agreed also in our understanding of the Person and Work of God the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father alone, and is always adored with the Father and the Son.
The Joint Commission also appointed a Joint Sub-Committee for Pastoral Problems between the Churches of the two families, composed of the following ten persons:
Metropolitan Damaskinos, Co-President, ex officio
Bishop Bishoy, Co-President, ex officio
Prof. Vlassios Phidas, Co-Secretary, ex officio
Bishop Mesrob Krikorian, Co-Secretary, ex officio
Metropolitan Georges Khordr of Mt. Liban
Metropolitan Petros of Axum
Prof. Gosevic (Serbia)
Prof. Dr. K.M. George (India)
A nominee of Patriarch Ignatius Zaka Iwas of Syria
Metropolitan Gregorios of Shoa
This Joint Sub-Committee will have its first meeting from December 5th to 9th in Anba Bishoy Monastery and will prepare a report for the next meeting of the Joint Commission.
It was also decided that the next meeting of the Joint Commission would be held in September 1990 at Chambésy, Geneva, to consider:
The report of the Joint Sub-Committee on Pastoral Problems
Conciliar formulations and anathemas.
Historical factors
Interpretation of Christological dogmas today
Future steps
It was also decided that the name of the Joint Commission would be the Joint Commission of the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches.
[/center]
[center]SECOND AGREED STATEMENT[/center]
Orthodox Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate
Chambésy, Geneva, Switzerland
September 23-28, 1990
Introduction
The third meeting of the Joint Commission of the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches took place at the Orthodox Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Chambésy, Geneva, from September 23rd to 28th, 1990.
The official representatives of the two families of the Orthodox Churches and their advisors met in an atmosphere of prayerful waiting on the Holy Spirit and warm, cordial, Christian brotherly affection. We experienced the gracious and generous hospitality of His Holiness Patriarch Dimitrios I, through His Eminence Metropolitan Damaskinos of Switzerland in the Orthodox Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. We were also received at two grand receptions, one at the residence of Metropolitan Damaskinos and the other at the residence of His Excellency Mr. Kerkinos, the ambassador of Greece to the United Nations, and Mrs. Kerkinos.
The thirty-four participants came from Austria, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czechoslovakia, Egypt, Ethiopia, Finland, Greece, India, Lebanon, Poland, Switzerland, Syria, U.K., U.S.A., U.S.S.R., and Yugoslavia. The six days of meetings were co-chaired by His Eminence Metropolitan Damaskinos of Switzerland and His Grace Metropolitan Bishoy of Damiette. His Eminence Metropolitan Damaskinos in his inaugural address exhorted the participants to “work in a spirit of humility, brotherly love and recognition” so that “the Lord of Faith and Head of His Church” will guide us by the Holy Spirit on the speedier way towards unity and communion.
The meeting received two reports, one from its Theological Sub-Committee, which met at the Orthodox Center, Chambésy, and the other from its Sub-Committee on Pastoral Relations, which met at the Anba Bishoy Monastery, Egypt. The following papers, which had been presented to the Theological Sub-Committee, were distributed to the participants:
“Dogmatic Formulations and Anathemas by Local and Ecumenical Synods within their Social Context,” Rev. Prof. John S. Romanides, Church of Greece.
“Anathemas and Conciliar Decisions-Two Issues to be Settled for Restoration of Communion among Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Churches,” Dr. Paulos Mar Gregorios, Metropolitan of Delhi, Orthodox Syrian Church of the East.
“Historical Factors and the Council of Chalcedon,” Rev. Fr. T. Y. Malaty, Coptic Orthodox Church.
“Historical Factors and the Terminology of the Synod of Chalcedon,” Prof. Dr. Vlassios Phidas, Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria.
“Interpretaion of Christological Dogmas Today,” Metropolitan George Khodr, Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch. “Interpretaion of Christological Dogmas Today,” Bishop Mesrob Krikorian, Armenian Apostolic Church of Etchmiadzin.
The six papers and the two Sub-Committee reports, along with the “Summary of Conclusions” of the Fourth Unofficial Conversation at Addis Ababa which was appended to the reports of the Theological Sub-Committee, formed the basis of our intensive and friendly discussion on the issues and actions to be taken. A drafting committee composed of Metropolitan George Khodr, Metrolpolitan Paulos Mar Gregorios, Archbishop Keshishian, Archbishop Garma, Rev. Prof. John Romanides, Metropolitan Matta Mar Eustathius, Prof. Ivan Dimitrov, with Prof. V. Phidas and Bishop Krikorian as co-secretaries, produced the draft for the Second Agreed Statement and Recommendations to Churches. Another drafting committee composed of Prof. Papavassiliou, Bishop Christoforos, Metropolitan Paulos Mar Gregorios and Liqaselttanat Habtemariam, with Fr. Dr. George Dragas as secretary, produced the draft for the Recommendations on Pastoral Issues.
The following is the text of the unanimously approved Second Agreed Statement and Recommendations.
Second Agreed Statement and Recommendations to the Churches
The first Agreed Statement on Christology adopted by the Joint Commission of the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, at our historic meeting at the Anba Bishoy Monastary, Egypt, from 20th to 24th June1989, forms the basis of this Second Agreed Statement on the following affirmations of our common faith and understanding, and recommendations on steps to be taken for the communion of our two families of Churches in Jesus Christ our Lord, who prayed “that they all may be one.”
Both families agreed in condemning the Eutychian heresy. Both families confess that the Logos, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, only begotten by the Father before the ages and consubstantial with him, was incarnate and was born from the Virgin Mary Theotokos; fully consubstantial with us, perfect man with soul, body and mind; He was crucified, died, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the Heavenly Father, where He sits on the right hand of the Father as Lord of all creation. At Pentecost, by the coming of the Holy Spirit, He manifested the Church as His Body. We look forward to His coming again in the fullness of His glory, according to the Scriptures.
Both families condemn the Nestorian heresy and the crypto-Nestorianism Theodoret of Cyrus. They agree that it is not sufficient merely to say that Christ is consubstantial both with His Father and with us, by nature God and by nature man; it is necessary to affirm also that the Logos, who is by nature God, became by nature man, by His Incarnation in the fullness of time.
Both families agree that the hypostasis of the Logos became composite by uniting to His divine uncreated nature with its natural will and energy, which He has in common with the Father and the Holy Spirit, created human nature, which He assumed at the incarnation and made his own.
Since the Holy Synods of both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa have already accepted the outcome of the official dialogue on Christology between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, including the two official agreements: the first on Christology signed in June 1989 in Egypt and the second also on Christology and on the lifting of anathemas and restoration of full communion signed in Geneva 1990, in which it is stated that "In the light of our agreed statement on Christology..., we have now clearly understood that both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of Apostolic tradition". It was agreed to have mutual recognition of the sacrament of Baptism, based on what St Paul wrote, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph 4:5)
But since up until now we are waiting for the responses of the Holy Synods of some other churches in both families, the restoration of full communion is not yet reached between the two sides of the bi-lateral dialogue. And due to the pastoral consequences and implications caued by mixed Christian marriages between the members of the two Patriarchates of Alexandria, having the majority of their people living in the same countries. Those marriages being difficult to perform in both Churches at the same time or in concelebration. The result is that mant sensitivities are created between the two families of the partners of such marriage. Those sensitivities which can extend even after the marriage and may affect the relation between the two communities of churches.
For those mentioned reasons, the Holy Synods of both Patriarchates have agreed to accept the sacrament of marriage which is conducted in either Church with the condition that it is conducted for two partners not belonging to the same Patriarchate of the other Church from their origin. Both the Bride and the Groom should carry a valid certificate from his/her own Patriarchate that he/she has a permit of marriage and indicating the details of his/her marriage status up to date.
Each of the two Patriarchates shall also accept to perform all of its other sacraments to that new family of Mixed Christian Marriage.
It is agreed that the Patriarchate which shall perform the marriage shall be responsible for any marriage problems that may happen concerning this certain marriage, taking into consideration the unified marriage laws signed by the heads of Churches in Egypt in the year 1999.
Each Patriarchate shall preserve its right not to give its sacraments to any persons whom she does not find fulfilling its canons according to the Apostolic Tradition.
Petros VII Shenouda III
Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa [right]Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of the See of St Mark[/right]
It can not be done at once. It is a process.
Thanks God, our two patriarchs are good friends and I'm sure they will do more to promote dialog in the future.
We must have in mind that we are separated for 1.500 years.
It can not be done at once. It is a process.
Thanks God, our two patriarchs are good friends and I'm sure they will do more to promote dialog in the future.
I prefer to learn Greek than Russian. I've done my part. I'm integration ready. I eat Tzaziki and know Agios Otheos by heart. I AM UNITY READY.
I've made a lot of Greek friends also.. They feel they are missing out on great Egyptian Cuisine they can participate in if they came to our Church. They are also unity ready.
Why so much bitterness? Because our priest was kicked out of a church in Greece because a monk there told him he should repent from his heretical ways. Then I go to a website and see that other EO's think the same way.
Is this NOT hatred?? Over a council which makes absolutely NO difference to anyone?
[quote author=Servos link=topic=14334.msg163894#msg163894 date=1363785693]
We must have in mind that we are separated for 1.500 years.
It can not be done at once. It is a process.
Thanks God, our two patriarchs are good friends and I'm sure they will do more to promote dialog in the future.
I prefer to learn Greek than Russian. I've done my part. I'm integration ready. I eat Tzaziki and know Agios Otheos by heart. I AM UNITY READY.
I've made a lot of Greek friends also.. They feel they are missing out on great Egyptian Cuisine they can participate in if they came to our Church. They are also unity ready.
Why so much bitterness? Because our priest was kicked out of a church in Greece because a monk there told him he should repent from his heretical ways. Then I go to a website and see that other EO's think the same way.
Is this NOT hatred?? Over a council which makes absolutely NO difference to anyone?
Well, Zoxsasi, why not read about the council? You seem to know some good basic knowledge about it, but did you delve deeper into understanding why we think the way we do and why they think the way they do?
Look, after reading more about the council, it wasn't easy making the same conclusion as you. Some people even lost their Christian faith due to reading more about the council. So, I think you should at least come from a state of understanding and humility rather than frustration about the whole disunity. The council is a serious issue, and healing takes a loooong time to occur. Forgive the priest his ignorance and move on.
I will try and learn more about the reason we were against this council.
My frustration is still merited - but its not only against the Coptic Church or the EO's. The COC is primarily innocent in this. Its against the Catholics most of all. I have a REALLY hard time having communion there due to the extent of differences.
Even if i were to understand and have perfect theology, and the perfect Orthodox faith, i'd be alone without a Church and without Holy Communion.
Brother Zoxsasi, let me share with you three true stories that I find to be encouraging:
1) A while ago there was a Coptic family in an area where there was no Orthodox church. The head of this family refused to take his family to other churches for fear of having his children converted. Therefore, every Sunday just as though they are going to church, they will take a shower and put on their best dress. Then they stand in front of their TV to attend the live transmitted liturgy. They lived like this for many years.
2) In his autobiography, Bishop Antonios Markos, Bishop of Africa, narrates a story that happened in South Africa. When he went to South Africa to buy a property for the church he came upon a property that was a mission site of the Greek Orthodox Church. However, this site was no longer in use and its custodian was an old Greek Orthodox lady that lived with her children. The children had pressured their mom for many years to sell the property and use the profit but the woman refused saying she will only sell it to an Orthodox person to be used for the service of God. This went on for many years. Finally, Bishop Antonios Markos knocked at the door of this old lady, her years of waiting for the Lord patiently paid off for God granted her what she wished for.
3) Once a Coptic man went to the Island of Fiji where there was no Orthodox Church. There weren’t even Coptic families in that island. This man started a Bible study meeting and started teaching people about Orthodoxy. After many years of labour many people took interest and wanted to become Orthodox. The man notified the Coptic Church about the situation. After considering the issue at depth it was decided that he should be ordained priest and start the first church in Fiji.
Brother Zoxsasi, I don’t believe that we who live in the diaspora are migrants but rather missionaries. Just as the Apostles scattered after the first persecution that started in Acts 7 and everywhere they went they spread the word of God; so, we who have left our home land for different reasons should use this opportunity to spread the word of God.
I hope you will forgive me for speaking regarding virtues I practice very little off. We are in this together and God is with us too.
Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord.
Psalm 27:14
In Christ
Theophilus
Our Bishop stressed that point that we are missionaries just a couple of weeks ago. The church in Fiji is just great and they are fantasic singers. Praise God that they are so blessed.
Frustration and anger can take our focus form the greatness of God to the greatness of the problem we face. God gives us each a cross to carry so that we can learn through patience and suffering. Remember how long our father Abraham waited before having a son.
Brother Zoxsasi, let me share with you three true stories that I find to be encouraging:
1) A while ago there was a Coptic family in an area where there was no Orthodox church. The head of this family refused to take his family to other churches for fear of having his children converted. Therefore, every Sunday just as though they are going to church, they will take a shower and put on their best dress. Then they stand in front of their TV to attend the live transmitted liturgy. They lived like this for many years.
2) In his autobiography, Bishop Antonios Markos, Bishop of Africa, narrates a story that happened in South Africa. When he went to South Africa to buy a property for the church he came upon a property that was a mission site of the Greek Orthodox Church. However, this site was no longer in use and its custodian was an old Greek Orthodox lady that lived with her children. The children had pressured their mom for many years to sell the property and use the profit but the woman refused saying she will only sell it to an Orthodox person to be used for the service of God. This went on for many years. Finally, Bishop Antonios Markos knocked at the door of this old lady, her years of waiting for the Lord patiently paid off for God granted her what she wished for.
3) Once a Coptic man went to the Island of Fiji where there was no Orthodox Church. There weren’t even Coptic families in that island. This man started a Bible study meeting and started teaching people about Orthodoxy. After many years of labour many people took interest and wanted to become Orthodox. The man notified the Coptic Church about the situation. After considering the issue at depth it was decided that he should be ordained priest and start the first church in Fiji.
Brother Zoxsasi, I don’t believe that we who live in the diaspora are migrants but rather missionaries. Just as the Apostles scattered after the first persecution that started in Acts 7 and everywhere they went they spread the word of God; so, we who have left our home land for different reasons should use this opportunity to spread the word of God.
I hope you will forgive me for speaking regarding virtues I practice very little off. We are in this together and God is with us too.
Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord.
Psalm 27:14
In Christ
Theophilus
These are such beautiful and empowering stories.
I often had the same feelings as you, that we are indeed missionaries of our faith.
What worries me is that, as an Orthodox Christian, I am interested in the salvation of souls, not whether that person has become Orthodox or Catholic.
I just feel at times that its hard enough spreading Orthodoxy (its a hard enough battle in a secular society) as this secular world is against us, and then this pain is compounded because there are Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxes who are against us also.
How can we save souls and bring others to christ in this climate? Even better, how can we bring ourselves to be saved in this climate?
i have had my own minor spiritual struggles this week (partly related to my love of sleeping and daydreaming!) and it's hard when there is no one to tell you 'keep going, i know you think you are continually defeated, but keep going'.
but this is what Jesus meant in John 16:33 'in this world you will have troubles, but take courage, for I have overcome the world'.
it's true God works in all the churches, but also He gives each of us a church group to work in.
i personally believe God will lead very many people into the orthodox church, but it takes time, and until then, many people will remain in other churches.
this is not our concern.
God knows what He is doing and when and why.
our job is to press on despite the struggles and temptations, and leave our frustrations with God; treating our co believers with all love and patience; and as our brother Theophilus said:
'wait for the Lord, be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord'.
Just to add some perspective, I know a family who lived in Saudi Arabia for a job, and they lived there for five years, with no church in sight because it's illegal. So you're not alone in this world. Be strong and patient.
Hey Mina,
One second there big guy. I really don't like to be compared to anyone living in Saudi arabia. I do not understand why Christians go there?? I'd be prefer ANY job outside - if its well known that u cannot have a Church there, and that you cannot even PRAY in your own homes there - why go? I do not respect this.
I am in Europe. Its not always easy to get a job in the same town, so I have to move around. I'm not sure if you are aware, but a lot of work is being done in China and India so to actually have a job anywhere in the EU is a blessing, if not a miracle.
All Im saying bro is that its a HUGE shame we are divided. I think had the Church fathers of ALL denominations seen where we'd be today, they'd have forgotten about the filoque and not even bothered with Chalcedon.
yeah, I changed my name because apparently its Dthoxsasi not zoxsasi
It's Thoxasi where the th is pronounced like the word "this."
You, my friend, are integration ready with the EO. Keep it up.
We should be one Church in no time with this attitude.
If I go to Cairo to Coptic Orthodox Church, and I said to Coptic Orthodox priest: "I am Chalcedonian Serb (لكنيسة الصربية الأرثوذكسية) and I want to take your communion".
What he will say?
One hypotetical question :)
If I go to Cairo to Coptic Orthodox Church, and I said to Coptic Orthodox priest: "I am Chalcedonian Serb (لكنيسة الصربية الأرثوذكسية) and I want to take your communion".
What he will say?
It really differs from priest to priest. Some priests, like Fr Peter who used to moderate this forum, commune Chalcedonians and allow them to even serve as readers. Others do so only under certain circumstances. A fair few will never commune a Chalcedonian.
One hypotetical question :)
If I go to Cairo to Coptic Orthodox Church, and I said to Coptic Orthodox priest: "I am Chalcedonian Serb (لكنيسة الصربية الأرثوذكسية) and I want to take your communion".
What he will say?
I would say that first it would depend if you're in Cairo for a short vacation or a long time. If it is short, the Coptic priest may give you communion. If it is long time, he would ask the bishop.
Generally, most Coptic clergy (at least those theologically minded) will consider what church you are coming from. If the Chalcedonian Serbian Orthodox Church does not condemn the Coptic Orthodox Church as heretics (both officially and unofficially), then he would allow communion especially for a short term period. In reality, most Coptic priests don't want to walk the fine blurry line and simply refuse to give communion for anyone outside the Oriental Orthodox families.
If one comes from a Protestant church, then it will never happen. The Catholic Church is unique. Since the Catholic Church will rarely refuse communion to a Copt or a Serbian, then it stands to reason that the same ecumenical love should be reciprocated. And that is why many Coptic priests don't rebaptize Catholics (just charismation). But I doubt any Coptic priest would give communion to a Catholic.
Now I will respond to your question by reversing it. What would happen if a Coptic Orthodox Christian wanted to take communion in Serbia, what will he say?
In our experiences, whether those like Zoxasi trying to take communion in Russian Church, or those who participate in Eastern Orthodox forums, we are constantly called monophysite heretics. Taken this into consideration, the answer to whether a Serb can take communion in Cairo or a Copt take communion in Serbia is not black and white.
But praise God. He has given us grace to address and make progress in the problem of Chalcedonian/Non-Chalcedonian intercommunion.
i don't want to sound cliched, but it's really about prayer and fasting.
i have had my own minor spiritual struggles this week (partly related to my love of sleeping and daydreaming!)
This has anything to do with the topic, but if you are sleeping and daydreaming involuntarily, I can guarantee you have obstructive sleep apnea. Get tested. 70-90% of Americans have it and are undiagnosed. It is not normal to have daytime sleepiness and daydreaming. People with normal sleep hygiene can't daydream even if they wanted to. Remember in Daniel 2, the fasting Hebrews were healthier than the non-fasting Babylonians. Fasting and prayer in a healthy body is a "little" easier to endure.
Now back to the topic.
In reality, most Coptic priests don't want to walk the fine blurry line and simply refuse to give communion for anyone outside the Oriental Orthodox families.
If one comes from a Protestant church, then it will never happen. The Catholic Church is unique. Since the Catholic Church will rarely refuse communion to a Copt or a Serbian, then it stands to reason that the same ecumenical love should be reciprocated. And that is why many Coptic priests don't rebaptize Catholics (just charismation). But I doubt any Coptic priest would give communion to a Catholic.
Now I will respond to your question by reversing it. What would happen if a Coptic Orthodox Christian wanted to take communion in Serbia, what will he say?
Since our identity is in Liturgy, Serbian Orthodox Church has no intercommunion with anyone who are out of the structure of Constantinople Patriarch.
Identity of Roman Catholics, if I may to over simplify, is in accepting Roman Pope. You can believe what ever you want, just accept Pope, and you can get communion.
Therefore in Serbia every Serb can go to Roman Catholic Church in Serbia and they will give him communion, but, of course, no one Serb do that.
Have in mind that in north Serbia we have big Roman Catholic minority, almost half a million.
Have in mind also that we have lot of mixed marriages in north Serbia but kids from that mixed marriages must be baptized in Orthodox Church in order to have communion.
If some Roman Catholic decide to become Orthodox in Serbia depends from local bishop what will happened.
About 50 percent of bishops will demand just chrismation.
About 30 percent of bishops will demand to be baptized again.
About 10 percent of bishops will demand nothing. They will accept him as he is. They think that RC baptism is full valid.
Then, we have cases in Serbia of Chalcedonian churches who are in schism like Macedonian church or Ukranian Church. Millions of people support these churches and these churches have same dogmatic teaching with Serbian Church, but since they are in schism they can not take communion in Eastern Orthodox Churches, although they have same dogmatic and all other teaching and praxis as we do. Have in mind that in Serbia there is significant number of people from former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. They must to decide which church they will be member. They can not take communion in both churches.
Now I come to the Coptic Orthodox Church.
Because we separated from you 1.500 years ago, and because we established our own Greek Alexandrian Patriarch and because for both of us, Copts and Serbs, our identity is in our Liturgy, I think we can not have intercommunion.
I stress, I think that this is not question of heresy but of schism. And these two are different terms.
[quote author=Servos link=topic=14334.msg163938#msg163938 date=1364061247]
Since our identity is in Liturgy, Serbian Orthodox Church has no intercommunion with anyone who are out of the structure of Constantinople Patriarch.
So is identity specific to liturgy or liturgical worship or the identity specific to Constantinople? If it is the first, then as you said both the Serbian and Coptic Churches are liturgical and we should have intercommunion with no additional conditions. But if it is the latter, and loyalty to the Constantinoplian patriarchate is a requirement, then affiliation is more important than liturgical worship. And if you think about it, how is it any different from Roman Catholic loyalty to the Pope?
Put another way. Let's hypothetically assume the Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian faith was identical but there was no official subordination to Constantinople - and both Church identify with liturgical worship and faith - why should intercommunion be conditional to affiliation? I think we all believe it shouldn't. I bring this up to show that intercommunion is a complex issue. This is not exactly true. There are Roman Catholic sects that officially claim loyalty to the Roman Pope but they are not officially Catholic because they endorse or insist on non-traditional changes, like female clergy or homosexuality.
Interesting. I did say the Roman Catholic church is a unique situation. Obviously, Roman Catholic ecumenism is much more liberal than the Orthodox want. However, your observations somewhat agree with what I said about Coptic-Roman Catholic relationships. I always learn something new from you. Thank you for this. The question that arises deals with why there is no intercommunion with Serbian and Macedonian Churches. You seem to say it is not really dogmatic or theological obstacles but affiliation again. I think the reason for the schism is more important than the result. So the question becomes, if we both have our identity in our liturgy, why was a Greek Alexandrian Patriarch formed in the first place? By creating a Greek Alexandrian patriarchate who showed allegiance to Chalcedon, the 5th & 6th century Chalcedonians have claimed liturgy and identity is not enough and those who do not pledge allegiance to Chalcedon (even if there are good reasons not to ally to Chalcedon), are not Orthodox and not Christian. The Joint declarations you posted say otherwise. They say, regardless of which Orthodox family your local church allies with, the faith is understood as the same. The mutual faith triumphs affiliation.
Now because intercommunion is a complex issue, we can't simply ignore or oversimplify Orthodox affiliation. But I think what Zoxasi has been saying all along is that theology and affiliation should come secondary to practical salvation and practical Christianity. But neither should practicality ignore theology and dogma.
First of all I apologize because my English is not good enaough to express me qualitative at such serios topics :)
I'll try to put it in this way:
The Church = Body of Christ = Body of Christ is consist from bishop + priests + deacons + believers = All of them gathered at Sunday offer bread and wine and by Gods grace that become Body and Blood of Christ himself = All of that gathered people constitute the Church so all of them take Christ's Blood and Body.
The Church is one and the Liturgy is one, although performed at different places (Belgrade, Moscow, New York...).
What make us one is that my bishop is recognized from neighboring bishops as such. You are right, there is no need to mention bishop of Constantinople.
If some bishop share the same teaching with me, same dogma, same praxis, if he has ortho praxia but is not recognized from my bishop (like Ukranian or Slavo-Macedonian) and neighboring bishops for any reasons, he and his priests and his believers are not part of that Liturgy we serve. Am I right at this?
So, you are recognized from your bishop, and your bishop form you, and neighboring bishops, and other bishops in the world, all of you gathered together - bishops and priest and deacons and believers are one Church.
We are another Church. Roman Cathloc are the third. Etc.
So for that reason I think, I don't say that I am right, I just think loud, for that reason we can not pretend like we offer one bread and wine when we offer 3 or more. His Hollines Patriarch Tawadros II one, Greek Theodore second, Roman Catholic priest in Cairo third.