Ordination/Enthronement of Bishops by H.H Pope Tawadaros

Zoxsasi

http://www.copticworld.org/articles/2095/

I have a few questions:

Is Bishop Athanasius now a Metropolitan? He was always a Bishop, and he was always a Bishop for France. What has changed??

And then France is not a diocese, its a country.

Secondly, its quite evident that everyone who was in the Baramose monastery is being picked to be bishops. Did the congregation chose any of these people?

minatasgeel

And then France is not a diocese, its a country.

diocese are devided based on the number of church and people....not on geographic place of area.

Secondly, its quite evident that everyone who was in the Baramose monastery is being picked to be bishops. Did the congregation chose any of these people?

almost all these monks served at those locations so they have some support  from people.

Zoxsasi

Hi

But what new title/change is there for Bishop Athanasius.

Is he now a metropolitan?

qawe

[quote author=dthoxsasiPhilanethrope link=topic=14495.msg165120#msg165120 date=1371550221]
Hi

But what new title/change is there for Bishop Athanasius.

Is he now a metropolitan?


If he was a general bishop before, he now becomes a diocesan bishop - metropolitan or otherwise (I don't think metropolitan, though, as it doesn't say so)

Zoxsasi

So Bishop Athanasius who is a French Orthodox Bishop is actually responsible now for Coptic Orthodox priests in France or priests under his Diocese? Can you confirm?

- personally, i think this is good news, but i just want to understand the small print.

So is Bishop Looka Al Baramousy under Bishop Athanasius?

mabsoota

the european dioceses are being reorganised, which is needed as the churches have grown up all various different locations under various different bishops, which has been fine, as any church growth is great.
but now we need some more organisation so that any new churches that grow up will be already under a specific bishop for their area.

Zoxsasi

[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=14495.msg165124#msg165124 date=1371555902]
the european dioceses are being reorganised, which is needed as the churches have grown up all various different locations under various different bishops, which has been fine, as any church growth is great.
but now we need some more organisation so that any new churches that grow up will be already under a specific bishop for their area.


Great, but Bishop Athanasius is responsible for which area? For all of France?
Im asking because apparently Bishop Looka is responsible for South of France and Geneva.

Who is doing what then?

mabsoota

hang on, this is the egyptian church;
wait patiently for 6 months or so for them to get organised and then ask again...
:P
;)

drewhalim

Bishop Athanasius was enthtoned as bishop of the Coptic French Orthodox Church. This is for french converts and he has no authority over any coptic church established by native Egyptians.

Bishop Luka is for the South of France and Geneva where he has been serving for many years   

Zoxsasi

[quote author=drewhalim link=topic=14495.msg165139#msg165139 date=1371626048]
Bishop Athanasius was enthtoned as bishop of the Coptic French Orthodox Church. This is for french converts and he has no authority over any coptic church established by native Egyptians.

Bishop Luka is for the South of France and Geneva where he has been serving for many years 


What do you mean that he has no authority over any Coptic Church established by native Egyptians? This is a very odd thing to say. I do not this is correct. He is a COPTIC BISHOP - and has authority like any Coptic Bishop. There is no "his church" and "our church".

In France, who is native Egyptian? These egyptians should be French also - so what you are saying doesn't make sense. We are not a Church of Immigration , we are an Apostolic Orthodox Church

qawe

.

Zoxsasi

its not right that we continue praying in our ethnic languages in lands where we have immigrated. It really isn't wise.

Whilst we are about to celebrate the Holy Feast of Pentecost, we should reflect on the birth of the Church. The Church was born on this day. The tools given to the disciples was the ability to overcome cultural barriers by speaking in tongues.

We are not there yet.

Arabic is not even our language - its Coptic, yet we speak this often in our liturgies, meetings and general ecumenical life. Is this really a good attitude to have when we have immigrated to countries like UK, France, Germany etc?

Having a Coptic Bishop for Egyptian people is hypocrisy. When these "Egyptian" people are going to Egypt on vacation, and are returning back to the UK, they'll all come out with their British passports and demand to be treated like British nationals. When they are IN the UK, they'll behave as if they are still in Egypt; and the Church obliges this hypocrisy by giving them a priest/bishop/monk who speaks arabic to ensure they remain indifferent to the rest of the country they are in. Whether it be UK, France, Belgium etc.. its the same. This is a very unorthodox, and unChristian behaviour on behalf of the Coptic Church.

drewhalim

I did not mean to create an argument on language but those are the instructions they received from the late Pope Shenouda III on ordination. Perhaps I did not make it clear but Metropolitan Seraphim just like Metropolitan Markos (and Bishop Athanasious) were ordained as bishops of ministry. They were to evangelise and care for native British or French people who converted to the faith. Of course they are Bishops and pray in our churches but living in London I know for fact that Metropolitan Seraphim only looks after churches he has established with native English converts even if it means establishing churches in areas not far from where other Bishops have already established. I know there is sometimes cross over between areas Metropolitan Seraphim and Bishop Antony both cover.

PopeKyrillos

[quote author=dthoxsasiPhilanethrope link=topic=14495.msg165144#msg165144 date=1371640547]
its not right that we continue praying in our ethnic languages in lands where we have immigrated. It really isn't wise.

Whilst we are about to celebrate the Holy Feast of Pentecost, we should reflect on the birth of the Church. The Church was born on this day. The tools given to the disciples was the ability to overcome cultural barriers by speaking in tongues.

We are not there yet.

Arabic is not even our language - its Coptic, yet we speak this often in our liturgies, meetings and general ecumenical life. Is this really a good attitude to have when we have immigrated to countries like UK, France, Germany etc?

Having a Coptic Bishop for Egyptian people is hypocrisy. When these "Egyptian" people are going to Egypt on vacation, and are returning back to the UK, they'll all come out with their British passports and demand to be treated like British nationals. When they are IN the UK, they'll behave as if they are still in Egypt; and the Church obliges this hypocrisy by giving them a priest/bishop/monk who speaks arabic to ensure they remain indifferent to the rest of the country they are in. Whether it be UK, France, Belgium etc.. its the same. This is a very unorthodox, and unChristian behaviour on behalf of the Coptic Church.


Keep in mind that most Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches are like this, not just the Coptic Church. You will hear plenty of Armenian at the Armenian Apostolic Church, and you will hear plenty of Greek at the Greek Orthodox Church. Its especially noteworthy that our churches are relatively new to the lands of immigration, unlike the Greeks for example who have churches dated to the early 1900's and possibly earlier. While I wholeheartedly agree with your argument, I think this is one of the few areas where our church doesn't utterly lag behind other ones, as we've already caught up to them relatively fast. Unfortunately, I can't say the same argument persists in terms of our church's hierarchy abroad (or even in Egypt for that matter :P)

PK