"3. That SYNDESMOS actively encourage the close co-operation on a local and regional level of youth movements of both families of our Churches. This co-operation could take the form of regional and local committees, retreats with biblical and liturgical studies and discussions on these themes of Tradition and renewal."
@qawe....I actually didn't delete anything of Stavro that had to do with the topic. The words that Ramez objected are still there in the discussion (considering that he hasn't abused his new power yet, ;-) ). So you can live on with no issue while reading our discussions.
"The unification process is supposed to be a painful process after 1500+ years of division. If a unity cannot survive abrasive opinions, then it should not occur anyways. If unity is based on love and long-suffering, there is nothing to worry about from Stavro's or any other similar comments. "
gave me something to think about. Thank you. It's a reminder that no matter what happens, the Holy Spirit is there to guide the Church in whatever He wills.
I went ahead and edited everything I saw as blatantly offensive in your posts. Let me be clear once and for all. No one should be "lusting" after unity, to use your expression, without discernment and without weighing the important outstanding issues that continue to divide our two communions. I don't see the steps taken by either of our Orthodox communions as implying any lust for unity. Talks, agreements, and statements have been very measured, and attended by very spiritual and eminent scholars on all sides. We should all continue to pray for our hierarchs, theologians, and shepherds to rightly divide the word of truth, and lead our communities in the best of care to fulfill Christ's ultimate wish that all may be one, just as He and the Father are one.
I am still however shocked at the blatant offensive language you prefer to use. You have made very insulting remarks against the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria, and the Greek Orthodox community there in general (not to mention extending your insults sometimes to the entire Chalcedonian community generally). I will not rehash the examples here, but in almost every single post you have been very condescending towards an entire community, whose shepherd even our own Patriarch regards as a brother and friend. If for nothing else (common decency, Christian manners,...) we should refrain from sarcastic and condescending insults directed at any community, especially when such insults do not single out particular individuals who may have committed crimes historically, but speaks of an entire community in a stereotypical racist fashion.
I will not go into detail about the successful missionary work of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate in Africa, neither will I begin to enumerate the success of many Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions and services here in North America. Success is not about numbers and people in pews, it is about much more than that. Finally, I will also not contest your specific facts about the history of the Alexandrian patriarchate after Chalcedon. My own reading of history leads me to see things in a more nuanced way than you portray them, and at any rate, our own Coptic Church had its share of intriguers, conspirators, simony, and nepotism as well. However, instead of pointing at our or anyone else's weaknesses and making a claim that their entire community is illegitimate, the Christian way to handle this is to see it properly as unfortunate moments in the Church's history, where the synergy between human will and Divine will failed due to weakness and historical circumstances, reminding ourselves that we are not living under the same historical conditions or share the same background. In short, If you Stavro keep claiming that Oriental Orthodoxy is spiritually superior, we would do much better to cover over our brothers' sins (as they also should do the same), and to lead the way of forgiveness and reconciliation by example, not by sarcasm and insults.
@ Ramez<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
You are discussing random points I did not even mention. Which part of “We are not discussing the subject of unity” don’t you understand?I went ahead and edited everything I saw as blatantly offensive in your posts. You are not the first moderator on the internet to lose an argument and resort to editing the opponent’s posts. I don't see the steps taken by either of our Orthodox communions as implying any lust for unity. Maybe because you are blind. As long as you brought it up, let me be clear once and for all: “You and others who lust after unity are totally against the Fathers who have refused unity with the Chalcedonians.” I am still however shocked at the blatant offensive language you prefer to use. You have made very insulting remarks against the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria, and the Greek Orthodox community there in general (not to mention extending your insults sometimes to the entire Chalcedonian community generally)Consider this:1- I stated facts. You did not refute any of them. I challenged you and you resorted to deleting my posts. 2- Muslims and other religious groups had their history discussed and exposed on these forums. Elements about their history came across as offensive to Muslims. No one of the moderators deleted any posts against Muslims. The problem is in their unsanitized history and crimes their ancestors committed against us, not in stating the history events. The same with the Chalcedonians in Egypt. You are blaming me for exposing their dark history in Egypt, a history you did not want to highlight because it of your lust for unity.
If for nothing else (common decency, Christian manners,...) we should refrain from sarcastic and condescending insults directed at any community, especially when such insults do not single out particular individuals who may have committed crimes historically, but speaks of an entire community in a stereotypical racist fashion.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Your attitude towards me lacks decency and befits a coward.
In case you are confused, honesty is a great virtue you should try every now and then.
And of course, when you lose an argument, you resort to the racist card.
especially when such insults do not single out particular individuals who may have committed crimes historically
You are a sorry product of a demoralized culture, lacking discernment and having to use vague expressions to evade taking a position as a man.
May have committed?????
Finally, I will also not contest your specific facts about the history of the Alexandrian patriarchate after Chalcedon.
I knew you cannot.
the Christian way to handle this is to see it properly as unfortunate moments in the Church's history, where the synergy between human will and Divine will failed due to weakness andhistorical circumstances, reminding ourselves that we are not living under the same historical conditions or share the same background.
Chalcedonians are under anathema. They cannot be of the Church when they are under anathema. You lack the basic knowledge about the Church and have the audacity to teach about it.
It is also not the way our Fathers handled it. I do not doubt for a second that you could be audacious enough to claim that you are more Christian than Dioscoros, Severus and Timothy.
@ Tasgeel
As a minimum, a global moderator should be Christian and should have a brain.
I'm not sure why you think it's about winning or losing an argument. It's simply about the way you present it. I lauded you (in my mind) for defending the baseless accusations against Dr. George Bebawi and the senseless attacks against him. But your behavior might as well be no different than the behaviors of those who insulted and libeled against Dr. George.
I could be the guy making the worst argument in the world that makes no sense, but if I do it with respect and love, I at least do not shun people away from me. You are clearly concerned about an issue. I think you can address this issue in the same manner as you would catch flies with honey, rather than swatting at them.
I think from what we've seen from the Greek Melkite Patriarch Theodore II is that even if we are not in complete unity, we are united. Just look at the behaviour and love he has shown our Patriarch.
Now, if we had complete unity, who should step down? The answer is there. The reason why churches were divided in the 1st place was over who is the head; and Our Lord Jesus Christ himself had to even step in and teach His Disciples that whoever wishes to be 1st must be last.
I would interpret Christ's statement as: "Don't focus on who is the head between brothers in the same ministry, but rather focus on serving the flock, then in this way, you become more like Christ".
Hence, the title of Patriarch of Alexandria should not be discussed. Both can keep the same title.
As for what would happen to him: He can keep his title and his position. Serving the Lord isn't about titles, but about bringing people closer to Christ. He has obviously proven to be a saintly man; but as a Coptic Orthodox member of the Church, I think I could end up hating my Church if they did ANYTHING offensive to him.
My suggestion is that the Coptic Congregation, if unity is really that close between us and the Greeks, should start learning Greek - and ASAP!
Comments
http://orthodoxjointcommission.wordpress.com/2013/12/14/syndemos-final-document/
I went ahead and edited everything I saw as blatantly offensive in your posts. Let me be clear once and for all. No one should be "lusting" after unity, to use your expression, without discernment and without weighing the important outstanding issues that continue to divide our two communions. I don't see the steps taken by either of our Orthodox communions as implying any lust for unity. Talks, agreements, and statements have been very measured, and attended by very spiritual and eminent scholars on all sides. We should all continue to pray for our hierarchs, theologians, and shepherds to rightly divide the word of truth, and lead our communities in the best of care to fulfill Christ's ultimate wish that all may be one, just as He and the Father are one.
I am still however shocked at the blatant offensive language you prefer to use. You have made very insulting remarks against the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria, and the Greek Orthodox community there in general (not to mention extending your insults sometimes to the entire Chalcedonian community generally). I will not rehash the examples here, but in almost every single post you have been very condescending towards an entire community, whose shepherd even our own Patriarch regards as a brother and friend. If for nothing else (common decency, Christian manners,...) we should refrain from sarcastic and condescending insults directed at any community, especially when such insults do not single out particular individuals who may have committed crimes historically, but speaks of an entire community in a stereotypical racist fashion.
I will not go into detail about the successful missionary work of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate in Africa, neither will I begin to enumerate the success of many Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions and services here in North America. Success is not about numbers and people in pews, it is about much more than that. Finally, I will also not contest your specific facts about the history of the Alexandrian patriarchate after Chalcedon. My own reading of history leads me to see things in a more nuanced way than you portray them, and at any rate, our own Coptic Church had its share of intriguers, conspirators, simony, and nepotism as well. However, instead of pointing at our or anyone else's weaknesses and making a claim that their entire community is illegitimate, the Christian way to handle this is to see it properly as unfortunate moments in the Church's history, where the synergy between human will and Divine will failed due to weakness and historical circumstances, reminding ourselves that we are not living under the same historical conditions or share the same background. In short, If you Stavro keep claiming that Oriental Orthodoxy is spiritually superior, we would do much better to cover over our brothers' sins (as they also should do the same), and to lead the way of forgiveness and reconciliation by example, not by sarcasm and insults.
@ Ramez<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
You are discussing random points I did not even mention. Which part of “We are not discussing the subject of unity” don’t you understand?I went ahead and edited everything I saw as blatantly offensive in your posts. You are not the first moderator on the internet to lose an argument and resort to editing the opponent’s posts. I don't see the steps taken by either of our Orthodox communions as implying any lust for unity. Maybe because you are blind. As long as you brought it up, let me be clear once and for all: “You and others who lust after unity are totally against the Fathers who have refused unity with the Chalcedonians.” I am still however shocked at the blatant offensive language you prefer to use. You have made very insulting remarks against the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria, and the Greek Orthodox community there in general (not to mention extending your insults sometimes to the entire Chalcedonian community generally)Consider this:1- I stated facts. You did not refute any of them. I challenged you and you resorted to deleting my posts. 2- Muslims and other religious groups had their history discussed and exposed on these forums. Elements about their history came across as offensive to Muslims. No one of the moderators deleted any posts against Muslims. The problem is in their unsanitized history and crimes their ancestors committed against us, not in stating the history events. The same with the Chalcedonians in Egypt. You are blaming me for exposing their dark history in Egypt, a history you did not want to highlight because it of your lust for unity.@ Ramez
If for nothing else (common decency, Christian manners,...) we should refrain from sarcastic and condescending insults directed at any community, especially when such insults do not single out particular individuals who may have committed crimes historically, but speaks of an entire community in a stereotypical racist fashion.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Your attitude towards me lacks decency and befits a coward.
In case you are confused, honesty is a great virtue you should try every now and then.
And of course, when you lose an argument, you resort to the racist card.
especially when such insults do not single out particular individuals who may have committed crimes historically
You are a sorry product of a demoralized culture, lacking discernment and having to use vague expressions to evade taking a position as a man.
May have committed?????
Finally, I will also not contest your specific facts about the history of the Alexandrian patriarchate after Chalcedon.
I knew you cannot.
the Christian way to handle this is to see it properly as unfortunate moments in the Church's history, where the synergy between human will and Divine will failed due to weakness andhistorical circumstances, reminding ourselves that we are not living under the same historical conditions or share the same background.
Chalcedonians are under anathema. They cannot be of the Church when they are under anathema. You lack the basic knowledge about the Church and have the audacity to teach about it.
It is also not the way our Fathers handled it. I do not doubt for a second that you could be audacious enough to claim that you are more Christian than Dioscoros, Severus and Timothy.
@ Tasgeel
As a minimum, a global moderator should be Christian and should have a brain.