Procession of the Lamb on Palm Sunday

qawe

I know there is a procession for the offertory on Easter, Epiphany and the Nativity, when epouro is chanted. However, I also heard this is done on Palm Sunday to commemorate the entry of the King into the sanctuary = Jerusalem. Can anyone confirm the authenticity of this tradition?

minatasgeel

I think the tradition follows bringing in the procession of the bishop into church to prepare the sacrifice rather then a procession of the lamb on the other feasts.

coptic_deacon

The above question is predicated on the current convention of offering the oblation at the beginning. If we revert to the original rite (and I hope we do), then the entrance of the bishop and the oblations are about 30-40 minutes apart. The bishop enters at the beginning, prays the thanksgiving prayer, is vested during the hymn 'O all you wise men of Israel' (nisavev teirou/nisawaw darou), then continues the Liturgy of the Word/Catechumens, then the offertory is conducted somewhere later (I'm not sure where exactly).

When we consider this, then maybe we can understand when it should or shouldn't done (but don't ask me how or why).

ophadece

@Coptic_deacon,
You are very fluent in authentic Coptic I can see.. thanks mate..
To all,
I believe regardless of the presence of a bishop the correct rites is for the Offertory to be presented with ebowro always that is from the west side of the church arriving to the east at the step of the altar. Only due to laziness, and in some churches lack of servants especially for earlier services, and the ignorance of the hymn ebowro and also ally for oblations it's more convenient to be done from the step of the altar. Think of how nice it would be to follow the correct rites on the covenant Thursday, the lamb entering with no accompanying celebration. That would give the rites a meaning unmatched I guess..
Oujai

coptic_deacon

Dad briefly attended lessons that Dr. Emile Maher gave in 1970s at the Patriarchate in Cairo. He still uses it occasionally. He gave me all his old cassette tapes of Fr. Shenouda when I was a kid.

qawe

@ophadece

I'm confused, why do you mention Covenant Thursday when I'm talking about Palm Sunday?

@everyone
I now looked at CopticReader and am now even more confused. It has Epouro during the offertory on every festive day. The only difference on the 3 major feasts is that Kyrie Eleison x 41 is not chanted. Is this correct? I have never heard of this before. Would chanting epouro also imply a procession of the Lamb?

Even more confusingly, CopticReader has Epouro before Tenouoasht and Shere Maria which may be chanted "alternatively". How can Tenouoasht and Shere Maria be chanted alternatively? Are they not chanted while the deacons vest? And isn't the offertory meant to be done after the deacons have vested? So shouldn't Tenouoasht and Shere Maria be before Epouro (not after) and in addition to it (not alternatively)?

@coptic_deacon
Interesting, but obviously does not answer my question!

ophadece

@qawe,

I was talking in general about the rituals, and not specifically about any Sunday service...

Oujai

avvakaras

Originally the raising of the lamb was done after "greet one another" which is why the deacon ends saying "offer offer offer in order"

ophadece

Oh yes of course. But as it changed I believe we are not practising the correct rites after the change either.. Thanks @avvakaras
Oujai

qawe

@ophadece

Ok I understand you are not talking specifically about Palm Sunday. Are you saying that the correct rite is to chant Epouro and a procession of the offertory from the western door at the beginning of EVERY liturgy? Does that mean you would never say Kirieeleison x 41?

When you say covenant Thursday offertory with no accompanying celebration, what do you mean? No Epouro? No procession? No Kirieeleison?

coptic_deacon

Kirie Eleison 41 has no Liturgical (Eucharistic) basis whatsoever. It only applies to the Agpia Prayers, and was added to the offertory as a way of saving time. Unfortunately, people don't understand that we had to save time because of persecution, so we should revert to the original rites for everything, but apparently all the shortcuts that have taken place over time have now become God and law. We have even started taking our own initiative and have very actively cut more things willy nilly, so as to preserve our time-saving tradition as opposed to actual tradition.

ophadece

@qawe,
@Coptic_deacon gave the whole answer in a concise way. And yes we should present the Offertory from the west during EVERY liturgy. We still Do the procession on covenant Thursday without celebrating. Most probably the it was organised this way to magnify the verse of the prophet Isaiah, that goes along the lines of, silently dragged to the slaughter He did not open His mouth. Yes, our Coptic church loves the Bible and through contemplating it's easy to draw correct or at least near correct rites understanding..
Oujai

lfahmy

This is all very interesting. Does anyone know of any books which detail the history of the Coptic liturgical rites? 

qawe

@lfahmy

This is probably one of the best English resource available (although it also goes a lot into the meaning of each part of the liturgy, not simply the history):
https://s3.amazonaws.com/stmaryscopticorthodox/books/liturgy.pdf

There is also an extremely detailed set of books on the Coptic Rite by Father Athanasius el-Maqari (I believe this is more historical), but is unfortunately only available in Arabic. Apparently it is currently being translated but is unlikely to be published any time soon.

lfahmy

Thank you @qawe. I downloaded it, and it's very informative. 

I also have four of Abouna Athanasius al Maqari's books. But my Arabic is very mediocre. 

cyril

Doesn anyone know where one can get a translation of Abouna's books? I wish the series were available on St Vladimir's Seminary Press

qawe

@cyril

There is no translation available. It is currently being translated but won't be finished for a while.