Are there 2 teachings regarding the 29th of the Coptic month?

qawe

In the real world, all I have heard is that the 29th is only celebrated if it also happens to fall on a Sunday. Sources include a monk-hegumen and a scholarly married hegumen (Fr Athanasius Iskander).
However, on tasbeha.org, (and CopticReader), all I have heard is that the 29th is celebrated regardless of the day of the week.

Can someone please explain this discrepancy?
Why is everyone in the real world saying something different from this forum (and CopticReader)?
I don't want you to just assert that it is celebrated on every day of the week, but please also explain the source of the erroneous teaching and how it came to be so prominent, while still remaining fairly uncontroversial on tasbeha.org.

PS please don't tell me about how it's not celebrated in Tooba and Amsheer - I already know that

minatasgeel

hehe....this funny...so this teaching is mainly written in the katameros since it affects the reading of the 5th sunday. Since i mentioned the 5th sunday, here is it's rite: for the first 6 months the reading of 2nd sunday of Amshir is read, for the second 6 months, there is a special readings of the 5th sunday. to AVOID reading that 5th sunday reading to many times, there are some guidelines and the following is one of them:

The 29th of every coptic month:

is the 29th of the coptic month falls on a sunday, the readings of the 29th of Baramhat (feast of the annunciation) are read except for the 29th of Toba and Amshir. 

qawe

@minatasgeel

Sorry I can't read Arabic.  Do I need to be able to read it to understand your post?

minatasgeel

the translation is under the image :-)

qawe

Are you basically saying that the readings of the 29th supersede the Sunday readings?

You still have not explained why some (educated) people think that it is not celebrated on weekdays (including tunes, readings, responses).

minatasgeel

That, that is what I am saying.

I don't really know why would people think that. To me it doesn't make sense. I would say the fight would be about the 29th celebration superseding sunday but not when it comes in weekdays....It might be a new development as the response are also kind of a new development. which is totally fine by me. 

qawe

"I would say the fight would be about the 29th celebration superseding sunday but not when it comes in weekdays".

Can you clarify? Do you mean readings only or the whole 'celebration', including farayhee etc? If you mean the whole celebration, then that is exactly what I'm asking about.

minatasgeel

I mean both. some people say the rite of sunday should be farayhee but than the readings of that sunday must be read. 

Remnkemi

Mina, I'm still confused.

The rubric you referenced speaks about the 29th of the month rite for the 10 qualifying months. It says nothing about the 5th Sunday. The teaching you described speaks only about the 5th Sunday falling on a month in the first half of the year vs the second half of the year. It says nothing about the 29th of the month rite. It also says nothing if the 29th falls on the 4th Sunday. Does this mean that the 29th of the month rite (i.e., joyful tunes with its own readings) only applies if the 29th falls on the 4th Sunday of any of the 10 qualifying Coptic months throughout the year and only on the 5th Sundays in the second half of the year? It seems quite odd and arbitrary.

Do you have any idea why 6 months was chosen? Was it a compromise? If you think about it, the first 6 months of the year include Tubah and Amshir, where there is no 29th of the month rite. We are left with four months that can potentially use the 29th of the month rite. Also note, we can not have more than five instances with a five-Sunday month in the whole year (depending on when Jan 1 starts and leap year status). (Usually it is three instances in the year with five Sundays). Is it really necessary to split up the year into 6 month intervals to avoid redundancy? There must be another reason. 

In addition, I see no reason to exclude weekdays. Most likely, the only reason the 29th of the month rite is not celebrated during the week is a custom outside of Cairo that stuck and people just want to practice what they were taught, even if there is no rhyme or reason.

drewhalim

The rites of the 29th of the Coptic month are not at all clear and there are numerous teachings.
1. Most common teaching is all three feasts are celebrated being Annunciation, Nativity and Resurrection, joyous tune/rituals regardless of the day of the week and "aktonk" always used. Despite what some books say in regards to the readings the common practice is again 29th Paremhat to be read regardless of whether the feast falls on a Sunday or not.
2. Second most common is that the above is followed but the readings follow the day if the feast falls Monday to Saturday and 29th Paremhat if a Sunday.
3. Another teaching I have witnessed is that the rites and hymns only refer to the Annunciation and Nativity but readings remain 29th Paremhat (which is the Annunciation). This I experienced first hand many years ago when praying with Metropolitan Pachomious who refused to allow any reference to the Resurrection to be chanted in the hymns.
4. The notion of the feast only commemorates the Annunciation I had never heard of or seen practiced. I read it recently in Coptic Reader and I personally do not understand it. In Arabic this feast is commonly referred to the "The Three Feasts of Salvation" and therefore it makes complete sense to commemorate the Annunciation, Nativity and Resurrection.

I have discussed this feast with a number of Cantors and they have never been taught the teachings of points 3 or 4 or witnessed them practiced and that included Cantors Tawfiq Yousef of the Muharraq monastery and Gad Lewis. In the Rites of the Feast recorded by Ibrahim Ayad he states (as does Bishop Raphael in the introduction) that if the feast comes Monday to Saturday the readings are that of the day and goes on to say "otherwise why would the readings exist in the Katamerous". This is a fair question however, Archdeacon Dr .Roushdy Wassef of the Clerical College states that in the older version of the Katamerous the 12th (Archangel Michael) the 21st (St Mary) and the 29th (Feasts of Salvation) had the same readings every month without exception and that the additional readings were added later.

minatasgeel

The rubric placed in the katameros under "Statements/Infromation (بيانات) concerning the reading of the fifth sunday". The screenshot i have above concerning the 29th is one of those comments to not repeat the readings of the fifth sunday through the years that's the katameros says too, not my opinion). 

It also says nothing if the 29th falls on the 4th Sunday. Does this mean that the 29th of the month rite (i.e., joyful tunes with its own readings) only applies if the 29th falls on the 4th Sunday of any of the 10 qualifying Coptic months throughout the year and only on the 5th Sundays in the second half of the year? It seems quite odd and arbitrary.

You are right...but it doesn't need to because it will never happened, at least to my calculation. The 29th will never be a 4th sunday. 

I don't know about the why the 6 month split but it may just be how the readings were setup. i do remember something similar thoo: in the difnar, the reading for the Pope's visit to churches, there are 2 separate ones, one for the 1st 6month of the coptic year and the the other for the 2nd 6 months (and nasie prob). I don't know if there are any connection.