Historical atonement

mcarmichael

Are there any good articles on this subject?

For example, in the American Protestant church that I was raised in, it was accepted that the sins of David, of Josepth, of Jonah, of Abinadeb, ... All of the sins of the Israel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, that they were all "atoned" through Jesus Christ.

Some American Protestants hold to a "Limited Atonement", a concept I have difficulty grasping. That Jesus Christ died for specific sin. Isn't that the postulate?

mabsoota

try to get hold of the book by our dear departed patriarch pope shenouda 3rd called 'salvation in the orthodox concept'.

many coptic churches will be able to sell you a copy (for about 3 dollars or less), or you can probably download it online.

if you can't find it, let us know and someone here will point you in the right direction.

Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour died for the sins of all, but to benefit from this, you need to believe, be baptised and do good works according to your faith.

we don't believe (as the catholic church teaches) that people are born with their ancestors sins.

we believe we are born with a tendency to sin.

so trying to explain orthodox theology on salvation to a protestant does not work until that person realises that we use similar terms to mean slightly different things.

so, basically, you need to go right back to the understanding of the creation to see where we differ.

we can't say if we disagree or agree with the protestant theories as we don't talk about salvation in the same way they do.

it's like asking socrates which he agrees with, marxism or democracy. his ideas were so much earlier than these two ideas that you can't explain socrates on a framework of 20th century philosophy, it simply won't make sense.

minasoliman

I have a slight problem with "salvation in the Orthodox concept" by HH Pope Shenouda.  He explains salvation in a small blurb in an Anselmian way that is controversial.  I would wish there would be no such confusion, but the rest of his book is okay in my opinion.  Fr. Tadros Malaty's "Man and Redemption" seems to be better, but I haven't read it all the way through yet.

St. Athanasius "On the Incarnation" is the best and timeless.  Does not explain salvation in "infinite sin" ways, but explains it as a lost of divine grace that the Logos, who is divine, aims to restore in us.

ReturnOrthodoxy

I very much enjoy Met. Kallistos Ware's lecture on Salvation! An excellent lecture that brings it back to basics and organizes some excellent thoughts on a subject that really can't be encompassed easily. Take a look here! I also echo Mina's opinion regarding "salvation in the Orthodox Concept" by HHPS3. 

Ray

mabsoota

minasoliman,

i get your point, but i think this is mainly a problem with the english translation of pope shenouda's book.

it can be read that way, but i think it is not intended that way.

i agree saint athanasius' book is the best, but it is difficult to understand for someone who didn't already read a lot of orthodox theology so they understand what is the orthodox Christian usage of all the terms used.

i deliberately waited 4 years after being orthodox before reading it, and even then needed to read a children's version of the book first in order to understand it!

i am not a theologian, (although i have proof read a theologian's essays and dissertation for his degree) so i find pope shenouda's books are easier to understand than going straight to the church fathers for explainations.

i also think that pope shenouda's book is best understood when read together with 'the heresy of salvation in a moment'.

but i will look at that video too, as i have a little time this eve.

i have a little problem with gentle monotone british accents, though, as i spent many happy childhood hours falling asleep on long car journeys while my parents listened to radio discussions on the channel with the most traditional posh accents.

so i will have to take care not to fall asleep!

;-)

i brefer zee eg-eepsheen akseent, eet eez more eentersteeng for mee.

(and zee food eez mush beeter)

coptic_deacon

@mabsoota I haven't read this particular book by Pope Abba Shenouda, but I agree with you in that I suspect any 'inaccuracies' or 'mistakes' are issues of translation. This isn't the first time this issue has come up regarding his books in english. Many people simply pick up a book and start to translate, thinking they are offering some sort of service to the church and the youth of today when in fact it is a disservice to them and to the ecumenical movement, and is an unnecessary obstacle in that respect. 

Perhaps some sort of Papal Commission ought to be set up to oversee this issue and if there already is, make a better one.

minasoliman

I think we need a bit more honesty than this. Even in Arabic, it teaches the same thing. It is well known among Sunday schools in Egypt where I have been that this belief in the "infinite sin" was quite prevalent. Even HE Metropolitan Bishoy confirms this in his book "the Real Holy Grail", and this is a book primarily for English-speaking audiences, not a translation necessarily, where he talks about infinite sin as "qualitative and quantitative". There is a lot of confusion as to what this "infinite sin" is and a lot of twisting of definitions have occurred to make this palatable for Orthodox ears, when all that really matters is to admit this is the first time a Coptic Orthodox clergyman taught this through HH Pope Shenouda.