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"H Agape" in Coptic

minasolimanminasoliman
in Hymns Discussion
Dear all,

I was wondering if there is a translation anywhere of the Greek hymn the priest chants in the Gregorian liturgy "H Agape tou Theo" in the Coptic language.

Thank you!
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Comments

  • minasafwat
     ti aghapi ente ephnoty ephiwt nem pi ehmot ante pi sheery emmonogenis penchois o woh pennooty o woh pensoter isoos pikhristos nem ti kenonia nem ti zwria ante pi epnevma ethowab sena shopy emmoten
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    No Coptic words for "aghapi", "kenonia", or "zoria"? No Coptic words for "emmonogenis" even? I understand we adopted some words from Greek, but we don't have anything originally Coptic in these words?
  • minasafwat
    edited June 2015
    of course we have but all of them would not be proper for expression of a biblical idea...if we agreed or not bilingualism is a pillar of coptic tradition that we can not get rid of

    Aghapi= ep mei
    kenonia= ti met er eshfeer
    zwrea= taio......or ti
    emmonogenis= efshwpi emmavatf
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    minasafwat said:

    of course we have but all of them would not be proper for expression of a biblical idea...if we agreed or not bilingualism is a pillar of coptic tradition that we can not get rid of



    I like this reason :-)
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    A few corrections:
    1. Agape as a noun in Bohairic Coptic is ⲡⲙⲉⲓ but the verb is ⲙⲉⲛⲣⲉ. This is fairly rare. In the NT, it is almost always ϯⲁⲅⲁⲡⲏ or ⲟⲩⲙⲉⲓ. The true bilingual noun version is ⲟⲩⲁⲅⲁⲡⲏ (used in the verse "God is love"). I think the most accurate Coptic version is ϯⲁⲅⲁⲡⲏ.

    2. koinonia in Bohairic Coptic is ϯⲙⲉⲧϣⲫⲏⲣ, not timetereshfeer. It can also be ⲡⲓϫⲓⲛⲉⲣϣⲫⲏⲣ. It is a gerund (noun formed by the verb ending -ing). This would literally mean fellowshipping. So I would use ϯⲙⲉⲧϣⲫⲏⲣ.

    3. As far as I can tell, gift in the NT is always ⲇⲱⲣⲉⲁ. It can be ⲡⲓϩⲙⲟⲧ but this usually means "grace". Grace can be understood as gift but grace adds more nuances. Taio is actually a Greek word. Taio is used only once to mean gift in Ephesians 2:8. So if you want a purely Coptic word, it would be ⲡⲓϩⲙⲟⲧ. However, keep in mind that in our text, we already use ⲡⲓϩⲙⲟⲧ for grace, when we say the "the grace of His Only begotten Son Jesus Christ". It would be semantically wrong to use ⲡⲓϩⲙⲟⲧ for "grace" in the middle clause of the sentence then use ⲡⲓϩⲙⲟⲧ for "gift" in the following clause. I think the only word Copts ever used for gift is ⲇⲱⲣⲉⲁ.

    4. Monogenes in Bohairic Coptic is Ⲡⲓϣⲏⲣⲓ ⲙ̀ⲙⲁⲩⲁⲧϥ not efshwpi emmavatf. 

    In addition, all manuscripts of the Liturgy of St Gregory that I can find use the Greek text. There does not seem to be a Coptic translation that existed in antiquity.
  • RamezM
    Another small correction, Rem.

    Taio is not a Greek word. The word for honor is Timi. The verb "I honor" is Tima-w or Timw when contracted.
  • minasafwat
    edited June 2015
    i can not follow what you have written cause i do not have the font..

    i have checked my dictionaries before writing ...so i need to see what you have written


  • minasolimanminasoliman
    What would be the Coptic words for "love" in John 3:16, John 15:9, John 17:26, and John 21:15-17?


  • TITLTITL
    John 21:15-16, Christ is asking about agape, but Peter responds with philo. John 21:17 Christ changes to philo, condescending to Peter's weakness.

    I just read it this morning!

  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Ah yes, I know the Greek.  What about the Coptic? ;)
  • TITLTITL
    `xmei

    (please be right this time)
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Thank you!  What source do you use?  Where can I read the Scriptures in various Coptic dialects?
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Also, when one says "ti-met-eshfeer" or "pi-iner-eshfeer", the root word "eshfeer", does that mean to commune or what?
  • TITLTITL
    Now I don't know if you're pretending or not.



    page 387, verse 15 says "aghapan", but 16 and 17 say "`xmei", although in my Orthodox Study Bible it said first two verses use "agape" and last one uses "philo", so now I'm confused. 
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    I have the days katameros in Coptic...I can check some days readings if anyone can provide me with which...
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    edited June 2015
    TITL said:

    Now I don't know if you're pretending or not.




    page 387, verse 15 says "aghapan", but 16 and 17 say "`xmei", although in my Orthodox Study Bible it said first two verses use "agape" and last one uses "philo", so now I'm confused. 
    Oh no, I'm not joking...lol...but thank you!  I'm going to download this and keep it.  I was wondering if there were other sources, especially if there are any from earlier manuscripts with its variants as well.

    It's very possible there might be more than one Greek version of that verse.
  • TITLTITL
    Woah, you're not joking! That's a huge compliment then!

    Earlier manuscript: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxpMO-rUVsPkUzVqNW9zMllpNTA/edit?usp=docslist_api

    You asked for it! :P

    Btw I got that off the same website I just sent you. They have both Sahidic and Boheric and different versions of each.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    minasoliman said:

    What would be the Coptic words for "love" in John 3:16, John 15:9, John 17:26, and John 21:15-17?



    Okay, so using the PDF you sent me, John 3 and John 15 uses "menre" in some form, with the exception of the noun in John 15, which uses "agapi".  John 17 is "agapi", and John 21 is "agapi" and "mei".  
  • TITLTITL
    minasoliman said:

    Also, when one says "ti-met-eshfeer" or "pi-iner-eshfeer", the root word "eshfeer", does that mean to commune or what?

    The root word, alone, means "friend".

    But "met-eshfeer" can be friendship, community, companion.

    I'm still a beginner, so probably waiting on Rem is a good idea :)

  • minasolimanminasoliman
    You may be a beginner, but you know more than me :)
  • TITLTITL
    I don't.

    I'm using a dictionary.

    I'm a beginner at using a dictionary.
  • Faithfull Servant 1
    Hey Mina,
    Here are the books of the bible in coptic if you were looking for some other sources:
    Also the actual one drive is loaded with good stuff for Coptic!
    God Bless

  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    TITL, don't wait on me. You're doing better than me. I am the one who mixed up taio and timio. It's funny Ramez knew exactly which word I was mixing up. The man can read my mind.

    Minasoliman, you can search Greek variants but our church basically uses LXX and mainly Theodotian version. (Ramez can confirm). But if you want Greek variants (and Coptic variants), you can use unboundbible.org. It has searchable bibles in many languages. This is my main go to site for the Bible in Coptic and Greek. If you want OT in Coptic, you will need a pdf version (or other software but I would leave it alone). If you want Sahidic bible, there are a few online sources.

    Minasafwat, you need Unicode fonts to read and write on this forum. Go to moheb.de for information on how to add Unicode fonts and keyboards for Linux and Windows. If you have Mac, go to http://www.evertype.com/fonts/coptic/ for Antinoou and keyboard. Another popular Coptic font is New Athena Unicode. If you need a Coptic keyboard for Mac that copies CS keyboard, let me know and I can send it to you. 


  • ophadeceophadece
    Love in Coptic is matmai and that's a feminine word so the article to be used is di.
    mateshbar is friendship and matareshbar is participation or communing.
    I need to look up dwrea, and get back to you..
    it doesn't work to try to translate Coptic expressions from English ones. It's much easier to do from Arabic..
    oujai khan ebshois
  • ophadeceophadece
    Yes as @Remenkimi said, dwrea, or gift means taio and that's a masculine word so it uses be.
    oujai khan ebshois
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Thank you Ophadece! Here's what might be a difficult question since this seems so engraved into Coptic trinitarian terminology. Is there an original Coptic word for "Spirit"?
  • TITLTITL
    edited June 2015
    minasoliman said:

    Is there an original Coptic word for "Spirit"?

    No? I think the closest thing is "nifi", but that means breath.

  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Ya, I was reading "nifi" in a couple of places.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Yes, nifi is the Coptic word for spirit, breath and wind. However the Copts have decided to abandon usage of the word due to its association with pagan practices and used ebnawma instead. Albeit with a bit of difference, akin to the church's dislike of usage of holy ghost and using holy Spirit instead..
    Oujai khan ebshois
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Well, to be fair, the Church never disliked the use of the word "ghost". It's just an old English term. It's like abandoning the use of the word "thou" or "ye". The conjuring up of "ghosts" is interchangeable with the conjuring up of "spirits". So it practically makes no difference. Today's profane practices have no problem with the term "spirit". There are still some of those in the Church who use the term "Holy Ghost".

    I have another question on the Coptic word "nifi". Is the Coptic word for "heaven" ("nifiowi") a derivative from the word for breathe?
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