About the last Vatican's report.

SongsForAscents

Hello,

Recently, the Vatican published a report that recognizes Jews have an eternal convenant with God therefore Christians should not try to convert them.

Here is the article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/10/vatican-tells-catholics-not-to-attempt-to-convert-jews ;

"Although Jews cannot believe in Jesus Christ as the universal redeemer, they have a part in salvation, because the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable," the report concludes, according to a summary released to the media.

I was wondering what is the Coptic Church's position about it?

God bless

minatasgeel

Hello SongsForAscents,

First, I wanted to welcome you to the forum. 

Second, I wanted to clarify that Tasbeha does not represent the Coptic Orthodox Church even though we are part of the Church. This is a forum of many knowledgeable members of the Church, and it is open for all to provide facts, but also opinions that may not represent the exact position of our Church.

So I just wanted to clarify this before any of the other members responses. 

SongsForAscents

Thank you Mina for your answer and your kind words.

I know the Coptic Church and the Catholic Church are very close theologically but also very different regarding certain points (due to culture differences, history, arab influence etc)

I haven't heard any reaction from the Coptic Church following this report and i was wondering if anyone has.

Also, when i asked this question, I was really open to read some of the opinions, i believe each one of us has a different reading/understanding of the Holy Bible, regardless of the different denominations positions. 

Thanks again :)

ItalianCoptic

SongsForAscents, 

I was raised Roman Catholic, and although we do have some close theological beliefs with the Roman (Latin) Catholic church, I would say we have some major differences on how to express an "opinion' or position. 

In both the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches there are not a lot of specific, sweeping statements that will give closure to questions. That is part of the reason so many Western people have trouble understanding Orthodoxy in general. When a Protestant person asks me why I believe the Holy Communion is the actual Body and Blood Christ, my response is that is a Holy Mystery. 

I would say that in my experience as a Catholic and Coptic Orthodox layman and now a servant in the Coptic church, we are much more accepting of Jewish people religiously as compared to Muslims. Of course the history of Islam and it's violence towards Christians in Middle Eastern countries plays a role in that relationship.  But, even the Eastern Orthodox Christians persecuted and killed Coptic and other Oriental Orthodox Christians before the Islamic invasion. 

I would say that people of the Jewish faith are treated differently because we believe that our Lord was born and raised in a Jewish home, served as a Rabbi and was part of that culture. And also, Jews and early Christians were much more closely nit than we are today because the formal aspects of Christianity were only beginning to develop in those early years. Jews actually helped to build some of our first churches and were very supportive of Christian in those years. The Romans looked at Christians as an extreme sect of Judaism during the first few centuries of it's establishment. 

I do not speak as a formal representative for the church, but I don't see trying to convert Jews as a pressing issue. If we must deal with a lot of the political and social issues going on in the world today, we must bring people to Christ. We, as Orthodox Christians should do much more work in evangelism (That is a dirty word here in the U.S. because it is sadly distorted by a number of sudo-Christian group, i.e. Mormon's, JW's) in those areas. 

You can see some Orthodox missionary work in places in sub-Sahara Africa and Asia, but our numbers from both Eastern and Oriental communions are far smaller than large, western Protestant churches. 

So, you will probably not hear any formal statement by the Coptic Church anytime soon. 

God Bless. I hope this helps, I am not theologian and I hope my comment does not represent our church incorrectly. 

Joshuaa

Hello SongsforAscents

Hope you don't mind if I say what I believe.

I don't know why the Catholic Church are saying what they are saying and it doesn't seem scriptural.

John 14:6 

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

My prayers for their salvation.

[edited by admin]

SongsForAscents

Hello Joshuaa and hello ItalianCoptic :)

Thank you both for your answers.

There is often the famous debate in Islam about its contradictions. Do the last surates cancel the previous ones?

We have here the same issue with the Old versus New testament. If God says He has an eternal covenant with the Jewish people, how can  the new testament cancel it? 

This is some food for thought. The eternal covenant and the importance of the Law is mentionned over and over ogain th the Old testament, can we ignore it? The longest psalm is about the Law. Doesn't it mean anything?

Joshuaa, John also said:  John 4:22 : Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

I they convert, they won't be jews anymore. So how should we understand it?

The way we understand Christianity today is the fruit of the different councils and political decisions throughout centuries. What if today the only thing that matters is actually the Bible and nothing else? What if religious leaders finally decide to leave the politics of the side? 

The relations between Christians/Jews/Muslims are pretty easy to explain i believe: on one side you have the jews, who are not proselyte. They do believe anyone who believes in One God is one of the Bnei Noah and can go to Heaven as an equal of a righteous Jew (if he respects the seven laws of Noah). Being jewish is not a ticket to Heaven (vs the Gentiles who won't), it is just having the responsibility of living the Torah God gave them - which are not 7 laws but 613. In this scenario, everyone has a shot if i may say :)

On the other side you have Islam and Christianity that do proselyte - and you have here a competition that causes problems. 

Maybe the reason why Christians are less accepting of Muslims is because the both sides know they try to convert each others?

And you still have the Jews asking "why do you want to convert me when i don't try to convert you? Since God says it is ok for us to be different as long as we believe in Him?"

Do you see what i mean? Maybe this is why the word "evangelism" does not sound good today. Maybe evangelism should be only for people who don't know God?

I read a very good theological novel a few weeks ago about the life of Jesus and if you read the Bible from a certain angle, Jesus spoke like an extra orthodox Jew. What if the Churh all this time chose to read the Bible from a "Gentile" angle only?  

What if this Vatican's report actually makes sense? Will it change mentalities?