do any of you guys know a church who do recognize the saints but fully focus on christ.

Onefaith33

i am really not conformable with any of orthodox churches because even though i do believe in intercession of saints. i think we are focusing too much on them. i know it's different from person to person but i am afraid what some of the people and sometimes the church herself doing is indeed worship. 

let's take apparitions as an example: if it were an angle or a saint that the person saw he will not be that amazed but if it is the holy Mother of God it is taken as a very big deal(like the Catholics). where do we draw the line between veneration and worship, cause i feel like intercession is just a cover up for worship. 

in the eastern orthodox churches the central figure is the mother of God, they might bring some excuses but i don't believe when a person comes to church he shouldn't see Christ first. in mount Athos one monk was reciting the Jesus prayer but adding prayer of mother of God at the end. if there was a prayer about the virgin would he add prayer about Jesus too, i don't think so cause that what happens when you cross the line between veneration and worship. and i think veneration become worship cause of lack of personal relationship with God and increased personal relationship with saint Mary. the way i see the Tehotokos is like the angles and saints but higher, where the others saw her as the only mediator to Christ.

and saints like saint Seraphim praying 15 times a day to the mother of God and telling others to do so. 

am sorry but i don't get this kind of veneration when you just recognize Christ as a fact but have relation ship with the mother of God.

And what do people like me have to do when the find the line of Worship and adoration right near intercession. which church could we go when ask the intercession of the mother of God but only intercession and not to give our spiritual graces.

For me the line is "where your treasure is there will your heart also be" and i  think the whole church should be like. that did the son of God come so that we could give our to his saints?

i don't think so, but that's what we're seeing right now. we know that the church didn't pray to the saints before 3 century Rome. and become devote in 6th century and more in 9th century and onward. i like praying to saints but i have a pretty big bridge between them and Christ.

Jojo_Hanna

Respectfully, your whole perception is incorrect.
In a few simple words; “I like praying to saints but I have a pretty big bridge between them and Christ.”

We don NOT pray TO saints, since they have successfully completed their struggle before us and have reached the eternal glory, we ASK them to intercede for us (ask for us, plead for us, beg for us, convince, etc.) before Christ, since they are closer.
Think of it like this, if you’re the middle child in the family and you really want something from your dad, you surely won’t ask your younger sibling to convince him or ask on your part! You’ll ask your mom since she knows him best, has loved with him longest, and because their strong love for each other will not permit him to decline whatever she is asking for.

Also, your ideology is very catholic and western, this may be why you are not liking what you are seeing, possibly. Look into the Coptic Orthodox Church’s intercessory prayers and you will be extremely comfortable and will be eager even to pray them!

If you have any concerns you can always contact on of our knowledgeable Priest or servants, or myself even, I’d love to answer questions if I could.

+ Blessed Pascha +

Onefaith33

Thank you for your comment brother.
As you said in was very confused with catholics and eastern orthodox words of prayer and titles while posting this.

I do know the coptic church and your prayers are deeply comforting unlike any other church.

mabsoota

did u use our church's prayer book?

http://agpeya.org/ (sorry for old english,needs updating)

it may help you.

may God guide you

:)

ItalianCoptic

@Mabsoota

You are aware of the Coptic Reader, right? That has the NKJV of the Bible, which is a bit more modern. Pardon my interjection into this discussion. But, beneficent isn't an, "old word." You would benefit from studying Latin. I could be a beneficiary for your estate. Or I could tell you in Italian, "Sto Bene" or, I am well. :-p 

mabsoota

sure, but when did you last tell your mum or best friend she was beneficient?!

i recommended something onefaith33 can easily access online as he/she may not want to download something if he/she is only investigating orthodox Christianity at this stage.

but of course, feel free to download coptic reader if you wish.

ba bene, ciao!

(i have several relatives in italy!)

Daniel_Kyrillos

Coptic Reader can be a bit.. overwhelming, so I understand if you're not comfortable using that (in case you don't know what it is, it's an all-in-one type Coptic Church app developed by the Southern Diocese of the USA). Agpeya.org is a bit outdated, yes, but I think it's totally fine for an introduction.

Side note: it seems almost "duh", but shouldn't we have a version of the Agpeya on the site? 

mabsoota

wow, like in modern english? that would be great! we could set up a subcommittee to proof read it

:)

minatasgeel

@mabsoota...don't get me started on problems we are dealing with now about liturgical texts....

mabsoota

ok, ok, but pleaseeeee ask a native speaker (whether coptic and in english speaking country for many years, or a foreigner like me) to read them before printing!

just this week, i read that Jesus boar our sins (instead of bore), just before the leaflet was distributed! (for those who don't know, a 'boar' is a male pig!)

ItalianCoptic

@mabsoota

I agree with some of the hymns translated into English. A few words, "The", "Of the", etc., can be cut to make it flow better with the melody. Some of the translations are extremely literal from Arabic. Not any dogmatic or theological terms by any means. I noticed (I do like ours better), "Unto the ages of ages" in Eastern Orthodoxy and "Unto the ages of all ages" in our church. The same with English Priest's saying, "...and the Holy Spirit. God in One. Amen" and American saying, "...One God. Amen."

Jojo_Hanna

What’s that last part, @italianCoptic??

ItalianCoptic

England: God is One, Amen.
U.S.: One God, Amen.

It's when you cross yourself.

Jojo_Hanna

Ahhhh! I like both haha! When you find a different translation of something you usually pray, it usually helps understand and reinforces the meaning even more! If it’s a good translation, you like the prayer even more! If it’s a bad translation, you end up refusing it and your faith gets confirmed on what is correct!
When I pray I remember different translations of prayers and stuff!
From time to time it’s refreshing! so we learn to appreciate what we’re saying more! And it shows us more than one point of view about the topic..

Just thought I’d give that, haha!
+ God Bless +

mabsoota

by the way, the word 'unto' is extremely old fashioned and not used in current speech.

it sounds really weird to hear it in the church.

when do you ever say 'give that book unto me?'

you say instead 'give me the book'.

in the same way, it makes more sense to day 'have mercy on us', rather than 'have mercy upon us'. we don't say 'i put the book upon the table'.

it just makes it easier for people who are not Christians to understand that we are having a normal conversation with God. He is not far away, and He does not require us to talk as if we are 300 years old when we pray to Him!

so the 'all ages' thing should be translated 'forever', or 'forever and ever'. if you are in love, you don't tell your partner 'i love you unto the ages of all ages' (well you could, but the laughter may spoil the romantic moment!) instead you say 'i love you forever'.

by the way, I have only ever heard 'one God, Amen' in Coptic churches in the uk. and i have been to about 1/3 of them (i like to travel, and the country is fairly small).

ItalianCoptic

@Mabsoota
It's about perspective. Coming for a Catholic church which stripped down tradition, I completely disagree. Although I understand and respect that you came from a Protestant background and that is your perspective. Remember, Liturgical prayer is not personal prayer. Pray however you like, personally. I've been critical of some clergy in their lack of explaining that personal prayer does not have to come from a prayer book.

I love you very much, but I came from a church that tried that and has withered into a shell of its former self. God is not meant to be put in a modern interpretation in the Orthodox concept. Simplicity does not mean it is without depth.
The church, the history, the Liturgy and the, "Why?" questions are what we should be explaining to converts with no understanding of a Liturgical church. Not to simplify the language. It's an era in which a vast amount of information is available in an instant. If the church survived times when the laity was barely literate, there is no excuse to dumb it down in an age of instantaneous information.

ophadece

So now I infer from what @ItalianCoptic wrote that this old-fashioned language serves as a reflection of our adherence to the writings of old, the rituals passed down to us and more generally being Orthodox.. How I wish so many other people even in higher ranks be just a fraction of @ItalianCoptic.. Thank you very much for this edifying post..

mabsoota

love u too :)

however our Lord Jesus did not pray in an old language and the Bible (new testament) was in the standard greek at the time when it was written, not in the formal greek of the government and courts.