I am no expert in anything...but I am guessing there is two types of suicide...someone who is mentally ill and don't really know what they are doing at all...like born mentally ill or became like that from an accident or something...and I won't consider that an "unforgivable sin" because they have no idea what they are doing anyway. The second one is someone who is either went through major or minor depression and found that the only way to get rid of that depression is by just dying and end all that pain (aka...get rid of their cross in life) for themselves instead of working on it or ask for someone's help...like it was mentioned earlier, there are those who just want it for attention...to get people's attention and there are those who really succeed on doing it whether they tell someone or no. My oponion in the second one is that there is healing for that depression if people do want the help they will get it, or if the people they tell them that they are going to do such and such...the people will help them in anyway they could...so somehow I still see this as a sin and not a mental illness..even thou...depression might fall under the term "mental illness" there is cure for that if people do seek it...tht's just my oponion about that and why I became to consider suicide as unforgivable sin in the second case.
The "unforgivable sin" is willfully and conscientiously rejecting God's call to repentance and salvation. This is considered to be the same as "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" in so far as you are considering the works and calling of God "as of no account", which is effectively the same thing as equating the works of God with the works of Satan, and hence blasphemy.
And suicide is not necessarily an unforgiveable sin. In the EO Church (of which I am a part), there is a story of the 20th Century Russian Nun Athanasia, who fasted and prayed for her deceased brother, locked in her cell, for 120 days. Her brother hanged himself while he was drunk (so no mental illness there). After the 120 days of prayer and fasting, she had a vision of her brother being released from torments. He wasn't released fom hell altogether, but he at least was no longer tortured by demons there. So if prayers for the suicidal dead indeed help them, who's to say there is no forgiveness for them?
I am dont think there is an unforgiveable sin, though if u dont wanna work on gettin rid of that sin it is harder to forgive. ok well idk if that made sence at all but here is an example: likk if you lied bout ur grade in class to ur parents and later confessand repent bout it but dont stop lieing than its not really forgiven, u have to work on trien to stop for it to b forgiven God Bless [glow=red,2,300]Marina Botros[/glow]
That sentence is just being said over and over again...I think the bible is better than wut we "think"...yes there is an unoforgiveable sin and that the blasmphey against the Holy Spirit.
It seems that there is an insidious attempt , on the part of some members , whether intentionally or unintentionally, to undermined the Holy Sacrament of Repentance and Confession.
First start by mentioning that the Lord Himself instituted both the Sacraments of Priesthood and Confession. After His resurrection, and before the Pentecost, He appeared to His disciples and prepared them for the task before them that He knew by His foreknowledge will face them.
19: “ On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20: When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21: Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." 22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." John 20:19-23
likk if you lied bout ur grade in class to ur parents and later confessand repent bout it but don’t stop lieing than its not really forgiven, u have to work on trien to stop for it to b forgiven
The Sacrament of confession will not benefit the person if he does not repent from his heart, before God deciding not to go back to sin.
not that i've read the whole thread but i would most definatly agree that blasphimy is unforgivable because it is in itself the act of denying the Holy Spirit. On a smaller scale, when a person is denied by his friend, all hell breakes loose and they are no longer friends. so when as humans we get this upset at being denied, considering that its not that much of a huge deal compared to blasphimy. but when u deny the Holy Spirit your denying the power that guides you, sustains you, gives you hope, joy, love, faithfulness, gentleness, goodness, kindness, peace, patience, and self-control. anyways back to studying for exams for me, so ttyl dudes. [shadow=red,left][move][glow=red,2,300]prayfor me[/glow][/move][/shadow]
#1 - suicide is a rejection of the gift that Christ gave us, which is life. It is unforgivable. A person's mental state is most often a result of a bombardment of various experiences that leads them to an "unstable" mental state, or a "stable" mental state. How we react to things affects our mental state, and we can learn how to react to things by growing spiritually in Christ. So to say, suicide is the result of a psychological issue is like saying the person was struck with a disease that causes suicidal tendencies. It's the other way around--usually, our own weakness (from being far from Christ) when it comes to dealing with life affect our mental stability. If there is actually a "disease" that causes suicidal tendencies, or for example, someone with some disease that gives him an uncontrollable urge to stab himself, then of course Christ, the Wisdom of God, will deal with that person justly.
#2 - blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable if you deny the work of the Holy Spirit inside us throughout our lives and we die without accepting the work of the Holy Spirit. It is unforgivable upon death, but forgivable during life. St. Paul himself, when he was named Saul, was denying the Holy Spirit by rejecting the Christian Teachings and killing Christians in the name of God. St. Paul turned from his error. See, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is forgivable during life. If St. Paul continued to ignore the work of the Holy Spirit and died, that blasphemy would be unforgivable.
This is not so different from the notion that you must believe in Christ in order to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Those who do not believe in Him will not. Your only chance to turn to Christ is during life. Upon death, the chance to turn to Christ ends. Same idea with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
suicide is unforgivable because you die doing it, so you simply can't repent. it is also, as said before rejection of a gift Christ gave you, life. You also don't believe that God can't/won't help you(problems), which is only a matter of time and patience. I am finally able to understand this fully, thanks to you guys. For you guys that don't: Lets say you killed somebody, and you won't repent or believe you did something wrong. You, then, are rejecting the Holy Spirit's cries to bring you back to Christ. You therefore end up dying with the sin unforgiven. Anybody who needs more help,please, feel free to reply/email me.
If you kill your self, you die The time of your death in known by God, for God know EVERYTHING, right? So God allowed you to die, when you killed yourself? So you died, by the permission of God... and God's will is always for the best...
As the Egyptian saying says "mafeesh had beymoot na'aes aomr" which is translated, “no one dies, short of his timing"
And if by a person killing himself, he defied God's plan, then how is different then when a person is killed by any other means... like murdered, car accedent, etc...
I am just a bit confused... I am not trying to prove a point... I am just thinking out loud... with need of some help...
[quote author=socoolbishoy link=board=1;threadid=1828;start=45#msg29531 date=1119804760] So God allowed you to die, when you killed yourself? So you died, by the permission of God... and God's will is always for the best...
Just because God allows somthing to take place, doesn't mean that it is his will.
The time of your death in known by God, for God know EVERYTHING, right? So God allowed you to die, when you killed yourself? So you died, by the permission of God... and God's will is always for the best...
Now, we are starting to speak non sense about the Almighty.
So according to your premiss, God allowed a person to commit adultry, murder, stealing,........, God forbid, because God knows!!!!!!!
We should speak with reverance about God or not speak at all.
" My brethren, be not many teachers, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." James 3:1
Now, we are starting to speak non sense about the Almighty.
God forbid... I speak evil... about my God...
So according to your premiss, God allowed a person to commit adultry, murder, stealing,........, God forbid, because God knows!!!!!!!
I never said that... even though, according to the story of Job, God tests us... so He does allow such ideas to go through our heads… and as you said God is almighty... thus He is in control
now God is in control of your life, and mine... right? so if I go today to kill myself, and I succeed, I died because he allowed my life to be taken... right? if wrong tell me how is it wrong?
and now does God favor people over others? because some try to commit suicide, and don’t succeed (thus given another chance) while others attempt to commit suicide and succeed. Now is that luck? Thus God is out of the picture. Or is it by God, and God knows the life span of each person, and these people who were successful in their attempt to commit suicide, were meant to die this way?
We should speak with reverance about God or not speak at all.
God, as I was taught is my protector, my creator… my savior, my Friend, my Father, among many other things… I love Him, and he knows what I mean, which was not negative in any way or form… if you saw it negative, sorry, but I am sure God saw it, as how I meant it… second I speak, to question a question my mind is pondering upon… now if you have no answer… then you have no reason to speak…
" My brethren, be not many teachers, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." James 3:1
I am not teaching anything to anyone… as I said in my previous post…
I am just a bit confused... I am not trying to prove a point... I am just thinking out loud... with need of some help...
So if you have something to help me with, please provide… but if you don’t, I am of no need of your criticism.
If you kill your self, you die The time of your death in known by God, for God know EVERYTHING, right? So God allowed you to die, when you killed yourself? So you died, by the permission of God... and God's will is always for the best...
My brother bishoy; this question i thought about to, and i figured this...my time of death is fixed. IF i plan to commit suicide, then i mite die, how often do we hear bout attempts to commit suicide, so i think God does give people a new chance sometimes. If not, then if they wouldnt have died cause of suicide, they could have died in an accident, a sudden death, a stroke or anything. God did permit u to die, but if u would have chosen not to commit suicide, the way of dying would be different cause ur time is fixed.
sorry for being a little non-sequitor to the current tangent, but I know many Fathers said that even the "un-forgiveable" sin can be forgiven by God (sorry....can't remember which Fathers right now).
so if I go today to kill myself, and I succeed, I died because he allowed my life to be taken... right? if wrong tell me how is it wrong?
God did not allow your life to be taken, God forbid, we need you with us for a long time. In your example you took it away by your self. There is difference between God’s Foreknowledge and man’s free will. God created humanity with free will to chose between good and evil, go to the story of disobedience of Adam and Eve.
and now does God favor people over others? because some try to commit suicide, and don’t succeed (thus given another chance) while others attempt to commit suicide and succeed. Now is that luck? Thus God is out of the picture. Or is it by God, and God knows the life span of each person, and these people who were successful in their attempt to commit suicide, were meant to die this way?
God is not out of the picture at all, God by His Foreknowledge, knew that, this person who lives might offer sincere repentance and live a holy live. Those who commit suicide and succeed are evil people in the sight of God.
I am not teaching anything to anyone… as I said in my previous post…
Actually you are propagating what you have studied in psychology in this website, which I told you before have many teenagers, which are not supposed to be exposed to the idea of suicide in the first place.
Actually you are propagating what you have studied in psychology in this website, which I told you before have many teenagers, which are not supposed to be exposed to the idea of suicide in the first place.
when is one person old enough to know about suicide? today many teens commit suicide... thus this information needs to reach the youth... and they need to understand both sides...
and me asking this question, its helping me... I am bothered with this topic... because I don’t know which side is right, and upon all that... is my question, which is bothering me even more... especially because I study such cases...
God did not allow your life to be taken, God forbid, we need you with us for a long time.
it was only an example... even though in my younger teen years I had thought of attempting suicide... but it was one of the childish thoughts... not the real stuff I study, and read about... lol... so not that serious... but thank you for these great words... even though I know you want to fry me in a pan... and watch me burn... lol... just kidding...
[quote author=Safaa link=board=1;threadid=1828;start=45#msg29550 date=1119832687] Those who commit suicide and succeed are evil people in the sight of God.
You don't know that. Some people are truly hurting beyond comprehension.
You guys i only used suicide because you actually die doing the sin, but the verse can apply to any other sin. Its like you steal something really valuable to its owner... and although there are many chances to bring the item back, you refuse to. You also refuse to repent. Therefore, the sin is never forgiven, and you die with the sin on your burden.
[quote author=u_stole_my_name link=board=1;threadid=1828;start=45#msg29571 date=1119870015] [quote author=Safaa link=board=1;threadid=1828;start=45#msg29550 date=1119832687] Those who commit suicide and succeed are evil people in the sight of God.
You don't know that. Some people are truly hurting beyond comprehension.
I wouldn't label them as "evil" people...because I am sure God is just and He is the one who judges and He is the one who is seeing the life of each and everyone of us....We are in no place to say oh those are going to hell or those are evil or such. Yes...We know that suicide is a blasphmey against the holy Spirit...because u are killing and that for one is a sin...because Thou Shall not murder...and u are dying in the sin because there is no way u can repent after u simply killed urself. So let's leave it on that, God is the one who judges and He is the one who says who goes where.
even though I know you want to fry me in a pan... and watch me burn... lol... just kidding...
God knows that I do not harbor any bad things against you, I admire your courage and your defending an issue you believe in it. Friends can differs in their points of view but still friends. As Mariann87 said “ So let's leave it on that, God is the one who judges and He is the one who says who goes where.”
We will see what God does when we go to heaven... for we worship a mysterious God... and we believe in a mysterious religion... the mystery is half of the fun…. lol
mar mar, you stated some good points... and each point needs a thread for itself... lol... its cool... but I will requote myself... lol... for no one could answere any of the question of heaven or hell... for you and I, we never died...
[quote author=socoolbishoy link=board=1;threadid=1828;start=45#msg29630 date=1119912331] We will see what God does when we go to heaven... for we worship a mysterious God... and we believe in a mysterious religion... the mystery is half of the fun…. lol
[quote author=Mark423 link=board=1;threadid=1828;start=0#msg27729 date=1118252494] Luke 12:8
I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Blasphemy against the Father and the Son is forgiven. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit isn’t. I’m not really sure what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means. However, I know that it’s not something you want to do… so if you think you’re on thin ice, just don’t do it.
Also, committing suicide is an unforgivable sin. Those are the only two things you can do that will guarantee you a one way ticket to hell.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when you ignore the Holy Spirit working inside of you. When you ignore your conscience and still sin till you eventually put out the flame that is the Holy Spirit inside of you out.
Also, any sin can be forgiven as long as you repent and confess, only those that you do not repent for are not forgiven. The thing about the Holy Spirit is that when you keep denying it's work inside of you, it eventually stops and you won't know to repent and confess, or you just won't care. Suicide is already done, and you can't repent for it so it is unforgivable...it's too late.
Comments
The second one is someone who is either went through major or minor depression and found that the only way to get rid of that depression is by just dying and end all that pain (aka...get rid of their cross in life) for themselves instead of working on it or ask for someone's help...like it was mentioned earlier, there are those who just want it for attention...to get people's attention and there are those who really succeed on doing it whether they tell someone or no.
My oponion in the second one is that there is healing for that depression if people do want the help they will get it, or if the people they tell them that they are going to do such and such...the people will help them in anyway they could...so somehow I still see this as a sin and not a mental illness..even thou...depression might fall under the term "mental illness" there is cure for that if people do seek it...tht's just my oponion about that and why I became to consider suicide as unforgivable sin in the second case.
And suicide is not necessarily an unforgiveable sin. In the EO Church (of which I am a part), there is a story of the 20th Century Russian Nun Athanasia, who fasted and prayed for her deceased brother, locked in her cell, for 120 days. Her brother hanged himself while he was drunk (so no mental illness there). After the 120 days of prayer and fasting, she had a vision of her brother being released from torments. He wasn't released fom hell altogether, but he at least was no longer tortured by demons there. So if prayers for the suicidal dead indeed help them, who's to say there is no forgiveness for them?
p.s. i'm not saying this in an "angry voice"
Peace.
ok well idk if that made sence at all but here is an example:
likk if you lied bout ur grade in class to ur parents and later confessand repent bout it but dont stop lieing than its not really forgiven, u have to work on trien to stop for it to b forgiven
God Bless
[glow=red,2,300]Marina Botros[/glow]
First start by mentioning that the Lord Himself instituted both the Sacraments of Priesthood and Confession. After His resurrection, and before the Pentecost, He appeared to His disciples and prepared them for the task before them that He knew by His foreknowledge will face them.
19: “ On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
20: When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
21: Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." John 20:19-23
The Sacrament of confession will not benefit the person if he does not repent from his heart, before God deciding not to go back to sin.
not that i've read the whole thread but i would most definatly agree that blasphimy is unforgivable because it is in itself the act of denying the Holy Spirit. On a smaller scale, when a person is denied by his friend, all hell breakes loose and they are no longer friends. so when as humans we get this upset at being denied, considering that its not that much of a huge deal compared to blasphimy. but when u deny the Holy Spirit your denying the power that guides you, sustains you, gives you hope, joy, love, faithfulness, gentleness, goodness, kindness, peace, patience, and self-control.
anyways back to studying for exams for me, so ttyl dudes.
[shadow=red,left][move][glow=red,2,300]prayfor me[/glow][/move][/shadow]
#2 - blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable if you deny the work of the Holy Spirit inside us throughout our lives and we die without accepting the work of the Holy Spirit. It is unforgivable upon death, but forgivable during life. St. Paul himself, when he was named Saul, was denying the Holy Spirit by rejecting the Christian Teachings and killing Christians in the name of God. St. Paul turned from his error. See, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is forgivable during life. If St. Paul continued to ignore the work of the Holy Spirit and died, that blasphemy would be unforgivable.
This is not so different from the notion that you must believe in Christ in order to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Those who do not believe in Him will not. Your only chance to turn to Christ is during life. Upon death, the chance to turn to Christ ends. Same idea with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
I am finally able to understand this fully, thanks to you guys. For you guys that don't: Lets say you killed somebody, and you won't repent or believe you did something wrong. You, then, are rejecting the Holy Spirit's cries to bring you back to Christ. You therefore end up dying with the sin unforgiven. Anybody who needs more help,please, feel free to reply/email me.
The time of your death in known by God, for God know EVERYTHING, right?
So God allowed you to die, when you killed yourself?
So you died, by the permission of God... and God's will is always for the best...
As the Egyptian saying says "mafeesh had beymoot na'aes aomr" which is translated, “no one dies, short of his timing"
And if by a person killing himself, he defied God's plan, then how is different then when a person is killed by any other means... like murdered, car accedent, etc...
I am just a bit confused... I am not trying to prove a point... I am just thinking out loud... with need of some help...
So God allowed you to die, when you killed yourself?
So you died, by the permission of God... and God's will is always for the best...
Just because God allows somthing to take place, doesn't mean that it is his will.
Now, we are starting to speak non sense about the Almighty.
So according to your premiss, God allowed a person to commit adultry, murder, stealing,........, God forbid, because God knows!!!!!!!
We should speak with reverance about God or not speak at all.
" My brethren, be not many teachers, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." James 3:1
now God is in control of your life, and mine... right?
so if I go today to kill myself, and I succeed, I died because he allowed my life to be taken... right? if wrong tell me how is it wrong?
and now does God favor people over others? because some try to commit suicide, and don’t succeed (thus given another chance) while others attempt to commit suicide and succeed. Now is that luck? Thus God is out of the picture. Or is it by God, and God knows the life span of each person, and these people who were successful in their attempt to commit suicide, were meant to die this way? God, as I was taught is my protector, my creator… my savior, my Friend, my Father, among many other things… I love Him, and he knows what I mean, which was not negative in any way or form… if you saw it negative, sorry, but I am sure God saw it, as how I meant it… second I speak, to question a question my mind is pondering upon… now if you have no answer… then you have no reason to speak…
I am not teaching anything to anyone… as I said in my previous post… So if you have something to help me with, please provide… but if you don’t, I am of no need of your criticism.
If not, then if they wouldnt have died cause of suicide, they could have died in an accident, a sudden death, a stroke or anything.
God did permit u to die, but if u would have chosen not to commit suicide, the way of dying would be different cause ur time is fixed.
does that make it more clear??
God is not out of the picture at all, God by His Foreknowledge, knew that, this person who lives might offer sincere repentance and live a holy live. Those who commit suicide and succeed are evil people in the sight of God.
Actually you are propagating what you have studied in psychology in this website, which I told you before have many teenagers, which are not supposed to be exposed to the idea of suicide in the first place.
Peace
and me asking this question, its helping me... I am bothered with this topic... because I don’t know which side is right, and upon all that... is my question, which is bothering me even more... especially because I study such cases... it was only an example... even though in my younger teen years I had thought of attempting suicide... but it was one of the childish thoughts... not the real stuff I study, and read about... lol... so not that serious... but thank you for these great words... even though I know you want to fry me in a pan... and watch me burn... lol... just kidding...
Those who commit suicide and succeed are evil people in the sight of God.
You don't know that. Some people are truly hurting beyond comprehension.
[quote author=Safaa link=board=1;threadid=1828;start=45#msg29550 date=1119832687]
Those who commit suicide and succeed are evil people in the sight of God.
You don't know that. Some people are truly hurting beyond comprehension.
I wouldn't label them as "evil" people...because I am sure God is just and He is the one who judges and He is the one who is seeing the life of each and everyone of us....We are in no place to say oh those are going to hell or those are evil or such. Yes...We know that suicide is a blasphmey against the holy Spirit...because u are killing and that for one is a sin...because Thou Shall not murder...and u are dying in the sin because there is no way u can repent after u simply killed urself.
So let's leave it on that, God is the one who judges and He is the one who says who goes where.
May God bless you socoolbishoy
[move]Monica[/move]
Hey r u maryann frum clearH20
[quote author=socoolbishoy link=board=1;threadid=1828;start=45#msg29630 date=1119912331]
We will see what God does when we go to heaven... for we worship a mysterious God... and we believe in a mysterious religion... the mystery is half of the fun…. lol
Luke 12:8
I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Blasphemy against the Father and the Son is forgiven. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit isn’t. I’m not really sure what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means. However, I know that it’s not something you want to do… so if you think you’re on thin ice, just don’t do it.
Also, committing suicide is an unforgivable sin. Those are the only two things you can do that will guarantee you a one way ticket to hell.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when you ignore the Holy Spirit working inside of you. When you ignore your conscience and still sin till you eventually put out the flame that is the Holy Spirit inside of you out.
Also, any sin can be forgiven as long as you repent and confess, only those that you do not repent for are not forgiven. The thing about the Holy Spirit is that when you keep denying it's work inside of you, it eventually stops and you won't know to repent and confess, or you just won't care. Suicide is already done, and you can't repent for it so it is unforgivable...it's too late.
sleepy
Peace.