Hey, ok, so, f ne1 asks me to disprove purgatory... i wanna know the verses.. so i know 1 of them said by our Lord.. TODAY u will be with me in paradise..
well theologically it makes no sense. because if god has purgatory then eventually all ppl will be in heaven and if thats true than he never had to die for us which nullifies pretty much EVERYTHING lol please someone correct me if i made a mistake, i am not very experienced in catholic theology
one of the obvious biblical examples is when Christ told the thief at his right hand that he will be in paradise the same day. Nothing bout having to wait a while in a purgatory place...
it'a a believe in Catholic church they believe that there is a place before u go to heaven where u get purified from the small sins that i think u havn't confesed or the ones that don't make u go to hell
hi i just know that the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16: 19-31) also shows that there couldn't have been a purgatory because Abraham said, "And besides all this, between us and you (the rich man in hades) there isa great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us."
I wonder are there any definitive verses that prove Purgatory existence? All of the biblical evidence given for such a theory seems to relay incidents of God's punishment on earth, but where is the evidence for the existence of such a domian?
the Catholic just built their belief in the presence of purgatory on no more than two verses in the Holy Bible:
1- the one mentioned by Hos Erof
2- This verse from the Book of Zachariah, chapter 3 verse 2 “ And the LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?" The meaning of the last verse, that the Lord was referring to His great salvation of the cross when God will redeem the believers and those who reposed in hope, waiting for His promise to be fulfilled, from the punishment of death.
In regard to the first verse, I believe that the notion of Purgatory becomes viable, only if the verse is taken out of its true context. I find that it can be placed in a more accurate context when one takes into account the surrounding verses as well--they devulge its meaning:
1 Corinthians 3 "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. "
The belief in Purgatory presumes that when it is mentioned "for the Day will declare it"; that the "Day" symbolizes the judgment day in which all our deeds, good and evil, will be revealed. This may be a fair presumption. Yet, the notion further goes on to presume that the rest of the quotation still talks of events occurring on the Judgment day. The concept of "burning" is then taken to mean retribution for the sins of the faithful Christians. Christians “will suffer loss"; they would be punished, but nevertheless would be "saved" at the very end. This is an interesting vantage point to take in regard to the quotation….but not a correct one.
The problem remains to be that such a perspective holds far too many assumptions. For instance; the text juxtaposes two different outcomes for the faithful Christian. It talks of those whose works "endure" and those whose works "are burned". The outcome is distinct for each. One will "receive a reward", while the other will "suffer loss". Therefore, when taking the quotation in its complete context, Purgatory only serves to punish those who have utterly failed to do many good works. Yet, those who have done a greater amount of works, will not be "fully burned" and will receive a reward. According to such belief, salvation is sufficiently determined by the amount of works completed as well as the type of "sinner" we are. Furthermore, the assumption must be taken that those who have not lost their "good works", who are “better” then others are pure enough not to suffer retribution. They are inexplicably sinless in the eyes of God.
Such a belief does not consider the larger context of the Biblical scriptures and does not take into account other verses regarding the good works. For instance Our Lord‘s parable of the ten virgins counter-argues such a notion. It is written that for the foolish virgins "who did not carry enough oil", the "door was shut". (Mathew 25:1-13) They came pleading with the Lord saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us!". In other words, they were actually saying "Lord give us another chance for we have seen our faults. Let us into your kingdom". Yet, the reply is never; "Very well, but you must pay retribution first". Rather it is a definitive and absolute response; "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’". There is an utterly explicit rejection of those who claim to be Christians but do not posses the "works" to accompany their Christian title.
Thus, you can not account for both texts or mingle them in any fashion without first juxtaposing two intolerable perspectives.
What Saint Paul is actually speaking of then may be as such;
1 Corinthians 3 demonstrates the test of our works on earth…., not on the Judgment Day. The foundation or "house " we build represents Our relationship with the Lord. Saint Paul is saying that if our relationship is not strong; if our spiritual lives are founded on straw rather then gold, then when temptation comes; we will be utterly burned. If our relationship is strong we can overcome temptations our good works remain and endure--we receive our reward in God's grace. (Note: if this reward was speaking of eternal life, Saint Paul would have said the "Heavenly reward". The term "reward" alone suggests it is a reward that is subjective, depending on the spirit of the Christian. It is not the one and only true Reward, but a reward that varies from person to person.) Now if our house is burned; we not only fall into temptation but may cause others to suffer as well It is because there is some form of foundation to begin with, Saint Paul presumes that we inevitably must will get up again. We are saved, “but through fire” We have salvation but only through constant struggle. Ultimately, repentance and renewal of our souls is how we are still saved. If there was no foundation, the temptation would completely conquer us and cause to stray from Christ completely. It is a relationship with Christ that truly never really existed. Therefore, this epistle refers only to “anyone [who] builds on this foundation. Please notice that Saint Paul's perspective is not based on a microcosm perspective; he is not referring to our “being saved” in terms of a single day. The Saint is referring to salvation we gradually attain over the course of our lives. The fire is the temptation God permits us to face during the many days of our Christian life. Those who are "saved" are those who have developed a relationship with Jesus Christ that lasts them until the Judgment day—those who veraciously carry their cross. We are only saved "as through fire" because it is a constant struggle for the Christian to overcome temptation. These especially true for those who have a weak relationship with Jesus Christ; those who have built their relationship and work on straw. Placed in the proper context, theses few verses reveal a profound and significant truth. It is the message of the Cross compelling Christians to keep watch of their spiritual growth.
Summary The problem with the text corroborating the theory of Purgatory is it’s misrepresentation of the truth. The "Day" is indeed representative of the future judgment day still to come. All our works will be revealed on that day. However, the fire that tests our work is not pertaining to the single judgment day. (This is where the misconception occurs.) The fire is representative of the test we must endure throughout the course of our lives as Christians, as we overcome temptation. Saint Paul speaks at one moment in terms of what is to come; "the Day" of judgment; and, the reaming verses in term of the entire life of a Christian. He assimilates past, present and future together, while mentioning the “Day” because all moments of time determine our fates during the last Day. If you presume that the entirety of the text takes place on one day, Purgatory becomes a viable theory. However, this takes the verse out of context from the rest of the Scriptures.
(If you feel I have made an error, please inform me. Thanks.)
Comments
because if god has purgatory then eventually all ppl will be in heaven and if thats true than he never had to die for us which nullifies pretty much EVERYTHING lol
please someone correct me if i made a mistake, i am not very experienced in catholic theology
http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-information.html
George M
1Co 3:15
1- the one mentioned by Hos Erof
2- This verse from the Book of Zachariah, chapter 3 verse 2 “ And the LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?"
The meaning of the last verse, that the Lord was referring to His great salvation of the cross when God will redeem the believers and those who reposed in hope, waiting for His promise to be fulfilled, from the punishment of death.
I find that it can be placed in a more accurate context when one takes into account the surrounding verses as well--they devulge its meaning:
1 Corinthians 3
"For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. "
The belief in Purgatory presumes that when it is mentioned "for the Day will declare it"; that the "Day" symbolizes the judgment day in which all our deeds, good and evil, will be revealed. This may be a fair presumption. Yet, the notion further goes on to presume that the rest of the quotation still talks of events occurring on the Judgment day. The concept of "burning" is then taken to mean retribution for the sins of the faithful Christians. Christians “will suffer loss"; they would be punished, but nevertheless would be "saved" at the very end. This is an interesting vantage point to take in regard to the quotation….but not a correct one.
The problem remains to be that such a perspective holds far too many assumptions. For instance; the text juxtaposes two different outcomes for the faithful Christian. It talks of those whose works "endure" and those whose works "are burned". The outcome is distinct for each. One will "receive a reward", while the other will "suffer loss". Therefore, when taking the quotation in its complete context, Purgatory only serves to punish those who have utterly failed to do many good works. Yet, those who have done a greater amount of works, will not be "fully burned" and will receive a reward. According to such belief, salvation is sufficiently determined by the amount of works completed as well as the type of "sinner" we are. Furthermore, the assumption must be taken that those who have not lost their "good works", who are “better” then others are pure enough not to suffer retribution. They are inexplicably sinless in the eyes of God.
Such a belief does not consider the larger context of the Biblical scriptures and does not take into account other verses regarding the good works. For instance Our Lord‘s parable of the ten virgins counter-argues such a notion. It is written that for the foolish virgins "who did not carry enough oil", the "door was shut". (Mathew 25:1-13) They came pleading with the Lord saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us!". In other words, they were actually saying "Lord give us another chance for we have seen our faults. Let us into your kingdom". Yet, the reply is never; "Very well, but you must pay retribution first". Rather it is a definitive and absolute response; "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’". There is an utterly explicit rejection of those who claim to be Christians but do not posses the "works" to accompany their Christian title.
Thus, you can not account for both texts or mingle them in any fashion without first juxtaposing two intolerable perspectives.
What Saint Paul is actually speaking of then may be as such;
1 Corinthians 3 demonstrates the test of our works on earth…., not on the Judgment Day. The foundation or "house " we build represents Our relationship with the Lord. Saint Paul is saying that if our relationship is not strong; if our spiritual lives are founded on straw rather then gold, then when temptation comes; we will be utterly burned. If our relationship is strong we can overcome temptations our good works remain and endure--we receive our reward in God's grace. (Note: if this reward was speaking of eternal life, Saint Paul would have said the "Heavenly reward". The term "reward" alone suggests it is a reward that is subjective, depending on the spirit of the Christian. It is not the one and only true Reward, but a reward that varies from person to person.) Now if our house is burned; we not only fall into temptation but may cause others to suffer as well It is because there is some form of foundation to begin with, Saint Paul presumes that we inevitably must will get up again. We are saved, “but through fire” We have salvation but only through constant struggle. Ultimately, repentance and renewal of our souls is how we are still saved. If there was no foundation, the temptation would completely conquer us and cause to stray from Christ completely. It is a relationship with Christ that truly never really existed. Therefore, this epistle refers only to “anyone [who] builds on this foundation.
Please notice that Saint Paul's perspective is not based on a microcosm perspective; he is not referring to our “being saved” in terms of a single day. The Saint is referring to salvation we gradually attain over the course of our lives. The fire is the temptation God permits us to face during the many days of our Christian life. Those who are "saved" are those who have developed a relationship with Jesus Christ that lasts them until the Judgment day—those who veraciously carry their cross. We are only saved "as through fire" because it is a constant struggle for the Christian to overcome temptation. These especially true for those who have a weak relationship with Jesus Christ; those who have built their relationship and work on straw. Placed in the proper context, theses few verses reveal a profound and significant truth. It is the message of the Cross compelling Christians to keep watch of their spiritual growth.
Summary
The problem with the text corroborating the theory of Purgatory is it’s misrepresentation of the truth. The "Day" is indeed representative of the future judgment day still to come. All our works will be revealed on that day. However, the fire that tests our work is not pertaining to the single judgment day. (This is where the misconception occurs.) The fire is representative of the test we must endure throughout the course of our lives as Christians, as we overcome temptation. Saint Paul speaks at one moment in terms of what is to come; "the Day" of judgment; and, the reaming verses in term of the entire life of a Christian. He assimilates past, present and future together, while mentioning the “Day” because all moments of time determine our fates during the last Day. If you presume that the entirety of the text takes place on one day, Purgatory becomes a viable theory. However, this takes the verse out of context from the rest of the Scriptures.
(If you feel I have made an error, please inform me. Thanks.)
God Bless