Do you think Catholics worship Mary more than God?

lildude30894

Do you think Catholics worship Mary more than God?

Luke90

In my opinion, it's not that they worship the Holy Theotokos more than God, but that they put her on a level that is almost equal to God, which is wrong on so many levels. (i.e. they sometimes call her the "coredeemer/coredemptrix" which is absolute rubish, but you can bet they have an excuse for it.)

Unknown

No, they do not. They do, however, make her more than human by their doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

jmazioun

[quote author=Luke90 link=board=1;threadid=3903;start=0#msg54899 date=1147914761]
(i.e. they sometimes call her the "coredeemer/coredemptrix" which is absolute rubish, but you can bet they have an excuse for it.)


Those titles are not given to St Mary by the Catholic church, it is only a number of the fathers of their church which have given her this title, the Catholic church itself is against this beleif.

The excuse for those that used the title in the past is that she is the only one which suffered with Christ at the cross for humanity (Obviously we say she did not suffer for humanity but out of compassion for her Son). And that she accepted Jesus to be incarnate from her so she had a part in salvation.

mazza

i wouldnt use the term 'worship' but being at a catholic school for 6yrs, they do take her pretty seriously, and sometimes (actually most of the time) more seriously than jesus

Luke90

Doit4Jesus, I'm sorry to disagree, but I'm almost sure that the Catholic Church does give the title of "coredeemer" to St. Mary in the sense that her obediance to the will of God allowed for the Logos to take flesh (well at least, that is their excuse, like you mentioned.) I could be wrong but either way, it's still weird, lol.

Other than theologically however, I really admire (in a sense) their faith in the Holy Virgin Mary, after all, when God looked down, he saw none purer than her. (I'm talking about devout Catholics though, because I too go to a Catholic School, but mine is in the US (the land where faith is a rare commodity.)

Jesus85

to be honest, here is how this appear in my prespective. Protestants give St. Mary hardly any acknowlegement for anything (they don't even refer to her as "Saint" Mary). Catholics ALMOST worship her (i guess due to their belief in her immaculate conception). And us, the Orthodoxs, give her the glorification she deserves (moderation). And this is something I was thinking about: the Virgin Mary made many appearances, and as far as my knowledge goes, she's been appearing to Orthodoxs, not Protestants, nor Catholics. Just something that came to mind!

jmazioun

Hey Luke90,
you are free to disagree, i am only speaking on the what i have read and my knowledge is limited, but this is a quote from a Catholic book i have

"The church proclaims that our only redeemer is Jesus Christ. However, on account of Mary's unique mission and posture, and because she so uniquely joined in her Son's suffering some saints, among others St Maxamillian, have given the one who only desired to be the "slave of the Lord", the title Co-Redemptrix"
(Rev. Jose C. Sorra, Bishop of Legazpi- 'Towards the new evangelization')

I think that many Catholics take it maybe a bit too far with St Mary, but it is not their doctrine to call her co-redemptrix or to worship her.

she's been appearing to Orthodoxs, not Protestants, nor Catholics

There has been many many claims of apparitions of St Mary within the catholic church, maybe even more than the Orthodox. I know the protestants have none because they dont beleive in intercession of saints which have passed away in the first place, and while i think its wrong and they are losing some depth of faith by this, i dont think it is a necessity for Christianity or salvation.

God bless

CopticPete

Actually, the catholic church as a whole does not beleive in her as a coredemer or anything. The only thing is this beleif of imaculate conception, in which they don't neccessarily raise her to the level of a god, but to the level of a heavenly host (right at the point when she was born) which is not true, because she was picked, and then after her struggles with christ became one of the heavenly hosts just like any other saint becomes a saint after theyre struggles, theyre not born with it. And the point of her appearing more in the catholic church is because they also use her intercession, and at the same time, it is such a huge church. If she appears in one in every 100 chruches, wat would be th eprobability of her appearing in a coptic, or the orthodox church itself, compared to the whole catholic church.
Hope that helps

-Pete

Luke90

Pete, I think we've already established that (as you said) although the Catholic Church does not outrightly give the title of "coredemptrix" to the Holy Virgin, they do acknoweldge it as an applicable title, (why they do it has already been stated above.)

And the point of her appearing more in the catholic church is because they also use her intercession, and at the same time, it is such a huge church. If she appears in one in every 100 chruches, wat would be th eprobability of her appearing in a coptic, or the orthodox church itself, compared to the whole catholic church.

Sorry Pete but I just can't agree with this. Apparitions of any kind do not just happen at random therefore you can't judge the "probability" of the Holy Virgin appearing in a Coptic Orthodox Church versus a Roman Catholic Church or any other church. Than magnitude of the RCC doesn't necessarily mean that St. Mary will appear to them more often than any other Christian denomination. Raw numbers do not equal raw faith; that's why the faith of one can outweigh the faith of thousands (just look at St. Athanasius.)

MyrnaMar

Ok... here comes my 12 years of Catholic schooling into play.. lol

Firstly, there has never been proclaimed the dogma of "Co-Redemptrix" in the Catholic Church and there is a misunderstanding by those outside the Catholic Church when the term "Redemptrix" is used...

St. Mary took part in the suffering by being a witness to her Son the Lord Our God being crucified.... She was not what saves us (because that is reserved for Our Lord only), but, took part in suffering alongside her Son..., so she took part in the redemption of humanity and that is why you see the term "Redemptrix"... You can see by this quote of a statement made by the Vatican what the term "Redemptrix" means:

Vatican II, "ibid." P58 wrote: " She bore with her union with her Son faithfully even to the Cross, where by design of divine Providence, she stood, grieved vehemently with her Only Begotten,and joined herself to His sacrifice with a Motherly love, lovingly consenting to the immolation of the Victim born of her." And in P61: "In suffering with Him as He died on the Cross she cooperated in the work of the Savior [redemption] in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls."

So, when you see the word "Redemptrix" in relation to St. Mary it is in terms of her role as the Mother of God and in suffering alongside her Son, the Lord Our God when he was crucified and died for our sins. Nothing more.

If others want to put these titles of "Co-Redemptrix" or try to make it seem like she is part of salvation or the forgiveness of sins, then they are promoting something that is not taught and is considered heretical by the Catholic Church.

I don't know if it is out of ignorance that some think this way or is done purposely to create more division, but, that is the world we live in today. Some people just want to promote the myth that St. Mary in the Catholic Church is equal to Our Lord Jesus Christ or try to make her some kind of a Goddess... this is blasphemous and heretical thinking.

Edited to add: Catholics show "Hyper-dulia" to St. Mary which means in Latin an exalted form of Honor... higher than the honor "dulia" given to the other Saints because she is the Mother of God... Only "Latria" or Worship is given to God alone...

God bless

Unknown

Guys:
Catholics DO NOT worship saint Mary. Its a false question as it starts with that false assumption.

Why do copts keep the broken body pieces of saints in large jars? is that respect for the dead? Everything can be twisted and mis-interpreted depending upon how l feel about you or what my mood is? how cruel.

I was telling a Catholic priest that we are orthodoxe and really adore saint Mary. He was so upset: he said no one worships saint mary. I used the term "ADORER" to the priest : adore in French means to worship; but in English means to cherish or to love very much.

Zoxsasi

[quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=3903.msg54935#msg54935 date=1147953563]
No, they do not. They do, however, make her more than human by their doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.


But as far as I know, this is now corrected. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception is no longer what we thought it was.

Amoussa01

The reason why they put St. Mary at the same level of God is because of religious syncretism. When the Spaniards arrived, they began to convert all the indigenous people in the west and what ended up happening was a fusion between different religions. The indigenous natives used to worship many gods, among which were female paternal gods. The natives were very attached to Saint Mary and even claim that she had appeared to one of them by the name of Juan Diego (who is considered a saint). This made them feel as if she was their "god" watching over them and protecting them as a mother.  The Spaniards resorted to any kind of means to allow for more natives to convert to Christianity--even torture! This is one reason why I believe they allowed for the syncretism of faiths. There were many other events that also intertwined both faiths and I was currently studying them in my Mexican American studies course in my university. Hope this answers your question.

CopticSoldier

I think that the idea that catholics worship St Mary says more about the person saying it than it does about the Catholic Church.

joeg

[quote author=LifeInDeath link=topic=3903.msg123415#msg123415 date=1291446432]
I think that the idea that catholics worship St Mary says more about the person saying it than it does about the Catholic Church.


This, to some extent. This thread has been dead for 4 years. Why resurrect it now?

CopticSoldier

[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=3903.msg123354#msg123354 date=1291409135]
The reason why they put St. Mary at the same level of God is because of religious syncretism. When the Spaniards arrived, they began to convert all the indigenous people in the west and what ended up happening was a fusion between different religions. The indigenous natives used to worship many gods, among which were female paternal gods. The natives were very attached to Saint Mary and even claim that she had appeared to one of them by the name of Juan Diego (who is considered a saint). This made them feel as if she was their "god" watching over them and protecting them as a mother.  The Spaniards resorted to any kind of means to allow for more natives to convert to Christianity--even torture! This is one reason why I believe they allowed for the syncretism of faiths. There were many other events that also intertwined both faiths and I was currently studying them in my Mexican American studies course in my university. Hope this answers your question.


Did you hear this from an Evangelical or Baptist historian?

George_Mina_Awad

[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=3903.msg123424#msg123424 date=1291459522]
[quote author=LifeInDeath link=topic=3903.msg123415#msg123415 date=1291446432]
I think that the idea that catholics worship St Mary says more about the person saying it than it does about the Catholic Church.


This, to some extent. This thread has been dead for 4 years. Why resurrect it now?

Amoussa01

[quote author=LifeInDeath link=topic=3903.msg123432#msg123432 date=1291466073]
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=3903.msg123354#msg123354 date=1291409135]
The reason why they put St. Mary at the same level of God is because of religious syncretism. When the Spaniards arrived, they began to convert all the indigenous people in the west and what ended up happening was a fusion between different religions. The indigenous natives used to worship many gods, among which were female paternal gods. The natives were very attached to Saint Mary and even claim that she had appeared to one of them by the name of Juan Diego (who is considered a saint). This made them feel as if she was their "god" watching over them and protecting them as a mother.  The Spaniards resorted to any kind of means to allow for more natives to convert to Christianity--even torture! This is one reason why I believe they allowed for the syncretism of faiths. There were many other events that also intertwined both faiths and I was currently studying them in my Mexican American studies course in my university. Hope this answers your question.


Did you hear this from an Evangelical or Baptist historian?


I am taking a course in Mexican-American studies. So why exactly are you bringing up this topic again?

CopticSoldier

[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=3903.msg123448#msg123448 date=1291490673]
I am taking a course in Mexican-American studies. So why exactly are you bringing up this topic again?


Sadly history is often told with a political perspective to it, its a bit like the difference between hearing the history of Egypt from a Christian teacher and an Islamic teacher.  We need to understand the bias and education of the people teaching us.

When I was in America and was speaking with people about American history I was surprised by how often things were told with a special 'context'.

There are sadly a lot of groups and people out there who would love nothing more than use an opportunity to educate as a chance to slander the Catholic Church.

Amoussa01

I am being taught by Professors who are both Catholic and Hispanic :)

So much for your response!

CopticSoldier

[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=3903.msg123454#msg123454 date=1291496744]
I am being taught by Professors who are both Catholic and Hispanic :)

So much for your response!


Thank you, I'll keep this in mind.

dzheremi

I am, I suppose, technically Hispanic (I don't self-identify as such, but my grandmother came from Mexico, I grew up speaking Spanish, know the culture, etc.), and up until recently was a practicing Latin Catholic, so if I may...

Amoussa1's professors sound like they have it about right as far as the brutality of the Spanish and their tolerance for certain kinds of syncretism is concerned. You still can find a lot of syncretism of certain aspects of the pre-Christian beliefs and Roman Catholicism in Latin America and among Hispanic communities (e.g., visiting "curanderas"/folk healers who use votive candles, for instance). However, I would stop short of saying that this proves that Hispanic Catholics or Catholics in general worship St. Mary. The special connection that Hispanics feel to St. Mary is a result of stories like Our Lady of Guadalupe (Juan Diego and the tilma) and others that present her as the one who brought their people out of paganism and into the light of Christ. Mexicans identify with Guadalupe especially because it happened in their country, so she is a symbol of Catholic Mexico, just like how an Egyptian Christian might feel a special connection with St. Mary as a result of having seen her appearance at Zeitun or Assiut.

So I think it is quite wrong to paint her as "God" of the Hispanics, and personally I do find that offensive. It is true that there are Hispanic Catholics who take their devotion to St. Mary to levels that I personally find disturbing and wrong (especially when such excesses go uncorrected by RC leadership, just as they apparently did in the time of the Spaniards), but this does not mean that such hyper-hyper-hyper-dulia (:-\) is part and parcel of being a Hispanic Catholic. That is just stereotyping and insulting millions of people.

Kirolies

They make her equal to God. They believe that since St. Mary birthed Christ, she's holy (which is true). But then they claim that Mary's mother is also holy because she birthed St. Mary. This means that they are making Christ and St. Mary equal. I believe that this is the boundary which sets us apart from Catholics.