God brought Eve to adam. Dont rely on your own understanding believe me. If you rely on your own choices without any one's help, you are greatly mistaken. You may think that you have stepped into heaven but mark my words---the bite of a serpent could be on its way. If you are really attracted---all i can say is never try to be alone with that person---be with that person in a group and always pray or your bound to be crushed.
There is a time and place for everything. At the age of 16 you are at the peak of developing your identity emotionally, psychologically and physically so making any decision about dating will inevitably lead to wrong decisions. Now one must remember this is a normal stage in ones life cycle and that we all seek to belong to someone and often begin the experimentation process. Perhaps instead of dating it can be suggested to go out with a group of mixed friends rather than be totally alone with that individual. Dating is not a bad thing but very inappropriate at that age. It is more appropriate to start this in early 20's when this stage is over and the person is more mature emotionally and psychologically!!!!
[quote author=maryfarag link=board=10;threadid=3976;start=30#msg61778 date=1160119710] There is a time and place for everything. At the age of 16 you are at the peak of developing your identity emotionally, psychologically and physically so making any decision about dating will inevitably lead to wrong decisions. Now one must remember this is a normal stage in ones life cycle and that we all seek to belong to someone and often begin the experimentation process. Perhaps instead of dating it can be suggested to go out with a group of mixed friends rather than be totally alone with that individual. Dating is not a bad thing but very inappropriate at that age. It is more appropriate to start this in early 20's when this stage is over and the person is more mature emotionally and psychologically!!!!
agree............. aslo the first relationship any gurl should get into is supposed to be with her husband and not anyone before him! even if it was just being in love with someone!
[quote author=doit4Jesus link=topic=3976.msg55874#msg55874 date=1149430591] Here is an extract from the summary about dating. If you discuss these things with youth, you may find it is not hard to convince them that most of these points are true since they will start comparing them to their own experiences and ones of their friends.
dating (1) leads to intimacy but not necessarily to commitment; (2) tends to skip the "friendship" stage of a relationship; (3) often mistakes a physical relationship for love; (4) often isolates a couple from other vital relationships; (5) in many cases, distracts young adults from their primary responsibility of preparing for the future; (6) can cause discontentment with God's gift of singleness; and (7) creates an artificial environment for evaluating another person's character.
You can explain how these points will effect ones relationship with God, but there will be no direct reference to dating in the bible for the reason that it did not exist at the time.
God bless
THere's going to come a time where if you stay friends and make a commitment to become more than friends that you enter in a different level of intimacy.
I mean, I agree its best to even be "friends" as far as possible, but what does being "friends" mean??? Buying my fiance a diamond ring isnt something I do with "all" my friends. You do treat the person differently.
Can you imagine if the person you wish to marry tells everyone :"Ohhh we're just friends". Its a bit worrying.
Definately, I agree with the part of sexual intimacy before marriage. I agree. However, kissing etc is OK? We werent created as rocks or stones. We just have to control ourselves so we don't go beyond that.
[quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=3976.msg73238#msg73238 date=1182770722] Hmmm I offer the real reasons why not to date: (1) It's expensive (2) It's more expensive (3) It's too expensive Get a job kids.
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=3976.msg73240#msg73240 date=1182774658] [quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=3976.msg73238#msg73238 date=1182770722] Hmmm I offer the real reasons why not to date: (1) It's expensive (2) It's more expensive (3) It's too expensive Get a job kids.
thats actually quite true... good point lol
Interesting opinion Kerestina,
But I beg to differ. Its only expensive if u make it that way.
For example, Copts in Egypt wait until they are 50 years old to get married cos they can't afford to purchase a house/flat? For the life of me, why not rent a place!??
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=3976.msg73259#msg73259 date=1182785710] [quote author=kerestina link=topic=3976.msg73240#msg73240 date=1182774658] [quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=3976.msg73238#msg73238 date=1182770722] Hmmm I offer the real reasons why not to date: (1) It's expensive (2) It's more expensive (3) It's too expensive Get a job kids.
thats actually quite true... good point lol
Interesting opinion Kerestina,
But I beg to differ. Its only expensive if u make it that way.
For example, Copts in Egypt wait until they are 50 years old to get married cos they can't afford to purchase a house/flat? For the life of me, why not rent a place!??
i agree relationships only become expensive if u make it.....but men seem to overload women with presents most of which r quite expensive b4 they've even reached marriage or enagagment even... u have the bday presse'. going out to dinner, family presse', forgivness prese.....its not neccessary.... money cannot buy love or happinees.. but men have this urge to impress
Men do not so much have the 'urge to impress' so much as they are 'compelled' to impress. When entering a relationship with a girl you are not only trying to impress her, you are also trying to impress her parents. This is something people seem to forget. Now, of course, I'm talking about this scenario in the sense of 'proper' Coptic dating, that is to say, both sets of parents are in fact aware that their children are seeing each other and, while they may be wary, do approve the behaviour. I think guys would love it if a girl was as simple and non-demanding (not sure if this is a word) as you suggest they can be. But again, there's a lot at stake, and one cannot discount the importance of parents in all of this.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=3976.msg73262#msg73262 date=1182786855] [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Men do not so much have the 'urge to impress' so much as they are 'compelled' to impress. When entering a relationship with a girl you are not only trying to impress her, you are also trying to impress her parents. This is something people seem to forget. Now, of course, I'm talking about this scenario in the sense of 'proper' Coptic dating, that is to say, both sets of parents are in fact aware that their children are seeing each other and, while they may be wary, do approve the behaviour. I think guys would love it if a girl was as simple and non-demanding (not sure if this is a word) as you suggest they can be. But again, there's a lot at stake, and one cannot discount the importance of parents in all of this.
Coptic men do it to impress??
That's not true at all... really?? Why?? Who are u trying to impress?? Is this really the way to behave? "trying to impress". I thought its important to "be yourself".
LOL.
I do however, think it is very noble if a man who is poor, marries a girl who is poor, and buys her a big diamond ring; not he's trying to impress her; no - just cos she's worth it. That's very noble. So Coptic men only do it to impress?? lol
At no point did I say men do it only to impress. I agree with you entirely: we should not attempt to impress anyone. We should accept and be accepted for who we are. But again, there's a difference between the ideal and the reality. The fact of the matter is, not everyone will accept you if you present a gift that costs $10. There is a direct correlation between how much a person is willing to spend on a girl and how much he loves her (i.e. the more you spend, the more you love her). I'm not saying this is right, and I'm not saying this is how it should be. However, among Egyptians, this is a common reality. There are some very materialistic people out there.
i agree with koko to a certain degree... but instead of looking at what should happen, look what is happening??... people are dating from a young age...parents prob dont find out till a couple of months later down the track.....they are spending money on material things at a young age...once one is matured like you gentlmen they can distinguish that in fact attracting women isnt aboiut material things but about compassion, committment, respect, empathy etc....
Hi there. I am new, probably some of you already have heard from me from other threads. I am byrdele, female, Catholic (yep!), married and have joined this site out of interest for the Coptic Church, not to convert anyone or be converted. I have really learnt a lot about you all just in the few days I've been on the site. I thought of Catholicism and Coptic as being more similar than not, and I still feel that way, but did not know of how many differences exist. It's been interesting.
I am curious. My church does not ban dating but the rules are that it stay friendly, no intimacy. I can see your stand for nipping it in the bud earlier and just cutting the dating out, especially when society's standards have been signifigantly lowered toward sex outside of marriage. The Amish do not date. All the young people all get together in a barn and sing, talk, etc. When they court, they do so by the young man coming over to the young woman's house and sitting out on the front porch or maybe in the front room, drinking lemonaide, etc. How do members of the opposite gender get to know each other well enough to marry in your church?
Dating sucks and that's that. It pulls you away from God, school, family, and messes up your head. And because your friend is probably too young to ever consider dating right now as a means of getting to know a potential spouse, it goes nowhere while destroying EVERYTHING. Trust me. It takes a lot to build your life again after even one relationship destroyed it all. You can be in all the denial that you want; you're the best, most spiritual human being in the world. Suddenly you got this bond to another person that you have to care for, love, be with at all times, talk to at all times. Does that remind you of your duty to someone else? Yes, your duty to God. Can you do that for both your partner and God? No, not unless God is involved which is what occurs in marriage, engagement, and preparation for marriage. Same thing with school, family, friends, and even your morality. It all goes downhill because now you've acquired a new duty to someone and set aside all other important aspects of life. Stay level-headed and everything will be clear. Don't let your spiritual security deceive you into the oxymoron of "Christian Dating"--because it doesn't exist. Even the greatest fall...
[quote author=byrdele link=topic=3976.msg73275#msg73275 date=1182800489] Hi there. I am new, probably some of you already have heard from me from other threads. I am byrdele, female, Catholic (yep!), married and have joined this site out of interest for the Coptic Church, not to convert anyone or be converted. I have really learnt a lot about you all just in the few days I've been on the site. I thought of Catholicism and Coptic as being more similar than not, and I still feel that way, but did not know of how many differences exist. It's been interesting.
I am curious. My church does not ban dating but the rules are that it stay friendly, no intimacy. I can see your stand for nipping it in the bud earlier and just cutting the dating out, especially when society's standards have been signifigantly lowered toward sex outside of marriage. The Amish do not date. All the young people all get together in a barn and sing, talk, etc. When they court, they do so by the young man coming over to the young woman's house and sitting out on the front porch or maybe in the front room, drinking lemonaide, etc. How do members of the opposite gender get to know each other well enough to marry in your church?
Thanks.
byrdele
Dating is not 'banned' but alot of restrictions are placed on it, for all the reasons mentioned in this discussion. From a Coptic view, any dating should be leading to marriage.. therefore any two that are obviously not compatible should not be dating... Friendship is not banned, so you get to know the opposite gender.. I didn't go into much detail.. if you want anything clarified feel free to ask.
Thanks for the response. I think you clarified things for me adequately. I was just a bit confused by some of the comments in the thread. It's the same in my Church. That is not to say that some people do what they want regardless, but it was so drummed into me to remain celibate and not to tempt fate that I was able to do it, by the grace of God. My parents made sure I understood the Church's teachings on that.
[quote author=byrdele link=topic=3976.msg73275#msg73275 date=1182800489] Hi there. I am new, probably some of you already have heard from me from other threads. I am byrdele, female, Catholic (yep!), married and have joined this site out of interest for the Coptic Church, not to convert anyone or be converted. I have really learnt a lot about you all just in the few days I've been on the site. I thought of Catholicism and Coptic as being more similar than not, and I still feel that way, but did not know of how many differences exist. It's been interesting.
I am curious. My church does not ban dating but the rules are that it stay friendly, no intimacy. I can see your stand for nipping it in the bud earlier and just cutting the dating out, especially when society's standards have been signifigantly lowered toward sex outside of marriage. The Amish do not date. All the young people all get together in a barn and sing, talk, etc. When they court, they do so by the young man coming over to the young woman's house and sitting out on the front porch or maybe in the front room, drinking lemonaide, etc. How do members of the opposite gender get to know each other well enough to marry in your church?
Thanks.
byrdele
Hi. Welcome by, So, are u Amish then?? Are the Amish catholics??
Anyway, it sounds soo cool how they get married and date.
In the Coptic Church is not really a culture or a nationality. We all generally agree that sex before marriage is unholy and a sin, and we don't use this as a way to build a relationship before marriage. However, having said that, it depends on who; but this is our general belief and there is not ONE priest that will disagree with that.
How do we get to know girls in the Coptic Church? I.e. to court them?? HAHHAH... this is soo funny cos, its stuff that everyone knows but never really said openly. But i'll say it openly.
Method a) They have these European youth conferences and Canadian Youth Conferences etc for the youth to actually "get to know" others like them around europe. There's ussually a good theme in these conventions, but i don't think the theme reflects the purpose, its just an excuse for youth to meet.
Method 2) Going to Church and looking at the "latest summer collection". HAHAHHAH
See what's on offer, and any special deals perhaps? After mass, etc? OR, in the canteen...
Method 3) Sunday School - this is probably the MOST romantic way, cos , in Sunday School, i do admit, 99.9% of us all go for the lesson and so if u do meet someone there, then its probably the MOST natural way.
Method 4) The most common "COPTIC" method available is this: Go and talk to the Coptic Priest and give him your application. He'll do the rest.
today, I had a friend that started to date a girl, and she was not a virgin (but he is), and that made the guy really insecure. He really did feel that what he can give to her is his all, but she can not. As the girl kept friendship with her former boyfriends, when she occasionally meets them, my friend got jealous, always thinking that she was intimate with that person. It led to jealousy, and made him quite bitter and quite withdrawn.
I think that is quite typical of the dating experience. I mean even both were not virgins the jealousy and suspicion would still prevail. I know it seems that I am saying dating always leads to sexual relationship, but it often does I believe (well for us teenagers). Even if sex is not involved, you could get jealous of the emotional intimacy with previous partners.
Of course we are not expected to marry whom we engage, but the friendship stage and building up from there, I believe, has no substitute.
Since this is a Coptic site, there is much here that reflects not only Orthodox praxis but also Egyptian cultural practice; Egypt, like most Middle Eastern societies, has what we in the west might regard as a more restrictive attitude towards the relations between young people of different gender. So, some of the differences are, I suspect, cultural.
It is, therefore, interesting to see how those raised in the Coptic Church in Egypt and the diaspora, respond to this topic, since it clearly reflects a diversity of practice - but an identity of Christian approach.
One of the sad things in the west is that so much time is spent, at least in the UK, in 'educating' young people about sexual relations; and so little emphasising the dangers inherent in the prevalent secular attitude to these things; and yet the British media wonder why there are so many teenage girls getting pregnant - they just will not see the connection.
It would be interesting (for those of us way beyond that stage of our lives) to know how those of you still at that stage cope with the pressures that modern society throws at you.
"One of the sad things in the west is that so much time is spent, at least in the UK, in 'educating' young people about sexual relations; and so little emphasising the dangers inherent in the prevalent secular attitude to these things; and yet the British media wonder why there are so many teenage girls getting pregnant - they just will not see the connection."
You're absolutely right. They are increasing public service announcements on the television about "safe sex" (oxymoron if I ever heard one - playing Russian Roulet with your life!) because sexually trasmitted diseases, including AIDS, is increasing in young people in the UK. Then a girl as part of her Christian faith takes a vow of celibacy until marriage and wears a ring to demonstrate that. She wants her friends to see the ring not as a point of pride but to show that they, with God's help, can do it too. I do believe this is a movement started in America, which makes some British even more suspicious because they love us and they hate us - usual family bickering. Anyway, the ring was not allowed by her school as part of the uniform, so her family took it to court. I am thinking "This girl is publically demonstrating her faith in Christ and her obedience to His will about sex, something that the UK authorities are worried about, including the educators, and yet they tell her she can't wear this ring." It makes no sense whatsoever.
I wish I still had the newsletter from a church I used to attend elsewhere. It noted that an African country which decided upon teaching the virtues and safeties of chastity has a very low rate of sex outside of marriage, thus the pandemic of AIDs raging through Africa is not very prevalent in that country, along with all the other things you get when illicit sex is not discouraged. Another African country embarked on a campaign to promote "safe sex". The country is rife with AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases, as well as births outside of marriage, etc. I would kill to get that newsletter back and get the names of those countries.
And, no, QT, I am not an Amish Catholic - lol! And yeah, I still use that word, courting. :)
It is surprising in the west, though, of how many single people religious and non-religious, are turning to time honoured methods of finding a mate, such as meeting the nice boy Auntie Mary knows, or meeting someone through friends in an arranged double date. People are getting tired of the "love" runaround which includes sleeping around, getting dumped, etc. They are beginning to see the point - that we marry for more than just romantic love. I know I married my husband because, yes, I love him, but I was looking more for companionship with him mostly. We had been friends for 4 years preceding our change in feelings, and I knew that I simply felt comfortable around him whereas I did not around so many other guys, even fellow Christians!
I have had lots of friends from the Middle East who meet the opposite gender in a more conservative manner as you, Anglian, have mentioned and some who have had arranged marriages. They wanted it that way. One friend of mine told me that his mother knew him better than anyone else in the world and would look for a girl who would be best for him, and likewise her parents, loving her very much, would look for the right man for her. They were so happy. In fact, I know of 3 arranged marriages which turned out very well. It was my first experience with arranged marriages - I had just moved out from the sleepy US South to California and was meeting people from all over the world. So I realise that things are done differently in the eastern parts of the world, and found out that it works. I once read a poll on marriages which are arranged vs. those which are not, and it said that overall, people in arranged marriages are happier because they are not just running after the erotic love, they are mating for life to be companions, lovers and friends and have gotten along well because, as my friend said, their parents knew them well. What is funny is that my husband is exactly like the type of man my sis and mom figured out I needed. At the time, I was furious to find out that they were discussing the "right" man for me. And then after we'd been married a short while, I just had to laugh. It really does work when the relatives are involved.
Thank you for a very interesting and thought-provoking post; it would be most interesting to know what the younger people here think.
For my part, I could not agree more with you; and how encouraging to know that some young people are turning to older, and truer, ways of finding that companion for life. No one is saying that there is any fool-proof way of doing this - but it is hard to think of a way more open to grief than the one commonly used in the west.
The case of the young woman with the chastity ring is a most interesting one. Most of the media simply fail to understand her, and I have seen a lot of unpleasant mockery of her; well, well done her for standing up for what she knows to be right.
May the Lord strengthen, comfort and guide her - and may the same be so for all those people who are on her journey.
Just something to add about dating practices in the east vs. the west.
Dating practices in the west are not all they are cracked up to be by westerners. And many of us felt that. You'd read a ladies' magazine about dating, and it would be so far away from the feelings for A LOT of us. It always included a one-night stand, which most of my friends and I, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof, were not interested in. As a non-religious friend of mine told me "If he loves me enough, he'll wait until we're married. I don't want to give away that part of me unless it is permanent".
I didn't really date, as I mentioned. But I had guys who were interested. Some were TOO interested, if you know what I mean, so I ran in the opposite direction. I was not interested in anyone who was interested in me and vice versa. I think that was a blessing from God, because when I think of what I could have ended up with.... (shudder). Although I knew I should not "date" the way the media suggested, still, I sometimes felt like less than a woman. When the media is pounding away at you like that, it can affect you even when you know what you are doing is right.
I remember shortly after marrying, all of a sudden something just popped in my head as to one of the reasons I was so content. I would never have to worry about the dating game, or lack thereof, or being made to feel inferior because I would not follow the media line, etc. I was with someone for life.
There is enormous pressure on western women. Many fall for it, but not as many as you'd think. We are portrayed as fast and loose, but there are many of us who simply want to do the right thing and either settle down in marriage, or remain celibate but, as my friend said, not give away that part of ourselves. My reasons were out of obedience to God. But had I not been a Christian, I still would have sided with my girlfriend. She is someone who really did/does need a man in her life, although at this point she might be too entrenched in her own habits and wants to have a man. I mean a husband. Had she married early on, I think she would not be the bitter and hermetic person she is today. But, she is introverted, attractive (not pretty), very, very shy and, like me, turned off by the dating game. Some of her aunts did try to fix her up with someone, but she refused. Bad choice. At least she should've met the guy.
As I said, the man I married could not have been more like what my parents wanted than had they picked him out. It is uncanny that my mom and sis described to each other the type of man which would be good for me, and it turned out to be my husband in every detail except one: he is not a scientist. But he does think in a very scientific manner and almost did go into science in university.
My brother, at 50 years old, met the love of his life (they've been married for 2 years now) on a Christian internet dating service. They met for a meal in a restaurant, talked a bit, met for coffee a few times and then decided to get married. That is another way some people are meeting. It has its downs - you might not be meeting the person you think you are meeting, but in his case, they lived in the same city and were able to meet on neutral ground. I had another friend who met her husband through a Christian pen-pal service. Again, you have to be a bit wary, but they were both prudent and met on neutral ground and got married almost immediately.
So the tide is turning, but slowly. I hope it continues to turn because the whole idea in the west of "dating" is just so outlandish that it breaks hearts and compromises values. God is not honoured in this way. When I was in high school, I kept hearing that these were the best years of my life (this is when the dating starts). I finally asked my sis why they were not really happy years. Part of it is the dating - if you don't date, you're a nerd. If you date someone who is not with the "in" gang, you're a nerd. If you date, unless it is with someone of your own values, you're expected to give more than you should and, if you don't, you're a nerd. Kids at that age are so vulnerable to peer pressure and ethics are not taught in the schools anymore. Btw, many high school kids do NOT date, despite the Hollywood movies you see.
[quote author=byrdele link=topic=3976.msg73424#msg73424 date=1182943578] Just something to add about dating practices in the east vs. the west.
Dating practices in the west are not all they are cracked up to be by westerners. And many of us felt that. You'd read a ladies' magazine about dating, and it would be so far away from the feelings for A LOT of us. It always included a one-night stand, which most of my friends and I, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof, were not interested in. As a non-religious friend of mine told me "If he loves me enough, he'll wait until we're married. I don't want to give away that part of me unless it is permanent".
I didn't really date, as I mentioned. But I had guys who were interested. Some were TOO interested, if you know what I mean, so I ran in the opposite direction. I was not interested in anyone who was interested in me and vice versa. I think that was a blessing from God, because when I think of what I could have ended up with.... (shudder). Although I knew I should not "date" the way the media suggested, still, I sometimes felt like less than a woman. When the media is pounding away at you like that, it can affect you even when you know what you are doing is right.
I remember shortly after marrying, all of a sudden something just popped in my head as to one of the reasons I was so content. I would never have to worry about the dating game, or lack thereof, or being made to feel inferior because I would not follow the media line, etc. I was with someone for life.
There is enormous pressure on western women. Many fall for it, but not as many as you'd think. We are portrayed as fast and loose, but there are many of us who simply want to do the right thing and either settle down in marriage, or remain celibate but, as my friend said, not give away that part of ourselves. My reasons were out of obedience to God. But had I not been a Christian, I still would have sided with my girlfriend. She is someone who really did/does need a man in her life, although at this point she might be too entrenched in her own habits and wants to have a man. I mean a husband. Had she married early on, I think she would not be the bitter and hermetic person she is today. But, she is introverted, attractive (not pretty), very, very shy and, like me, turned off by the dating game. Some of her aunts did try to fix her up with someone, but she refused. Bad choice. At least she should've met the guy.
As I said, the man I married could not have been more like what my parents wanted than had they picked him out. It is uncanny that my mom and sis described to each other the type of man which would be good for me, and it turned out to be my husband in every detail except one: he is not a scientist. But he does think in a very scientific manner and almost did go into science in university.
My brother, at 50 years old, met the love of his life (they've been married for 2 years now) on a Christian internet dating service. They met for a meal in a restaurant, talked a bit, met for coffee a few times and then decided to get married. That is another way some people are meeting. It has its downs - you might not be meeting the person you think you are meeting, but in his case, they lived in the same city and were able to meet on neutral ground. I had another friend who met her husband through a Christian pen-pal service. Again, you have to be a bit wary, but they were both prudent and met on neutral ground and got married almost immediately.
So the tide is turning, but slowly. I hope it continues to turn because the whole idea in the west of "dating" is just so outlandish that it breaks hearts and compromises values. God is not honoured in this way. When I was in high school, I kept hearing that these were the best years of my life (this is when the dating starts). I finally asked my sis why they were not really happy years. Part of it is the dating - if you don't date, you're a nerd. If you date someone who is not with the "in" gang, you're a nerd. If you date, unless it is with someone of your own values, you're expected to give more than you should and, if you don't, you're a nerd. Kids at that age are so vulnerable to peer pressure and ethics are not taught in the schools anymore. Btw, many high school kids do NOT date, despite the Hollywood movies you see.
Anyway, that's enough from me.
God bless.
byrdele
So, what is the ideal christian way of dating??
Going up to a girl, in a Piazza opposite the river seine in summer time, asking her for a dance in an open air dance festival of French Folklore dancing? Walking her home or to the bus stop afterwards, in the warm summer night? That's soo idealistic.. that it rarely happens.
As u mentioned it, even your brother met his wife in an internet dating site. Is that now the IDEAL Christian way to meet your future wife/husband? I mean, on an internet dating service, u definately cannot touch or commit adultary over the net. So, you're safe in taht respect?? LOL.. i guess, if u wanna be really orthodox about it, u could send an email to her parents saying u have honourable intentions??
What is the IDEAL Christian way to meet and date girls then?
Comments
Dont rely on your own understanding believe me.
If you rely on your own choices without any one's help, you are greatly mistaken. You may think that you have stepped into heaven but mark my words---the bite of a serpent could be on its way. If you are really attracted---all i can say is never try to be alone with that person---be with that person in a group and always pray or your bound to be crushed.
There is a time and place for everything. At the age of 16 you are at the peak of developing your identity emotionally, psychologically and physically so making any decision about dating will inevitably lead to wrong decisions. Now one must remember this is a normal stage in ones life cycle and that we all seek to belong to someone and often begin the experimentation process. Perhaps instead of dating it can be suggested to go out with a group of mixed friends rather than be totally alone with that individual. Dating is not a bad thing but very inappropriate at that age. It is more appropriate to start this in early 20's when this stage is over and the person is more mature emotionally and psychologically!!!!
agree............. aslo the first relationship any gurl should get into is supposed to be with her husband and not anyone before him! even if it was just being in love with someone!
Here is an extract from the summary about dating. If you discuss these things with youth, you may find it is not hard to convince them that most of these points are true since they will start comparing them to their own experiences and ones of their friends.
dating
(1) leads to intimacy but not necessarily to commitment;
(2) tends to skip the "friendship" stage of a relationship;
(3) often mistakes a physical relationship for love;
(4) often isolates a couple from other vital relationships;
(5) in many cases, distracts young adults from their primary responsibility of preparing for the future;
(6) can cause discontentment with God's gift of singleness; and
(7) creates an artificial environment for evaluating another person's character.
You can explain how these points will effect ones relationship with God, but there will be no direct reference to dating in the bible for the reason that it did not exist at the time.
God bless
THere's going to come a time where if you stay friends and make a commitment to become more than friends that you enter in a different level of intimacy.
I mean, I agree its best to even be "friends" as far as possible, but what does being "friends" mean??? Buying my fiance a diamond ring isnt something I do with "all" my friends. You do treat the person differently.
Can you imagine if the person you wish to marry tells everyone :"Ohhh we're just friends". Its a bit worrying.
Definately, I agree with the part of sexual intimacy before marriage. I agree. However, kissing etc is OK? We werent created as rocks or stones. We just have to control ourselves so we don't go beyond that.
(1) It's expensive
(2) It's more expensive
(3) It's too expensive
Get a job kids.
Hmmm I offer the real reasons why not to date:
(1) It's expensive
(2) It's more expensive
(3) It's too expensive
Get a job kids.
thats actually quite true... good point lol
[quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=3976.msg73238#msg73238 date=1182770722]
Hmmm I offer the real reasons why not to date:
(1) It's expensive
(2) It's more expensive
(3) It's too expensive
Get a job kids.
thats actually quite true... good point lol
Interesting opinion Kerestina,
But I beg to differ. Its only expensive if u make it that way.
For example, Copts in Egypt wait until they are 50 years old to get married cos they can't afford to purchase a house/flat? For the life of me, why not rent a place!??
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=3976.msg73240#msg73240 date=1182774658]
[quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=3976.msg73238#msg73238 date=1182770722]
Hmmm I offer the real reasons why not to date:
(1) It's expensive
(2) It's more expensive
(3) It's too expensive
Get a job kids.
thats actually quite true... good point lol
Interesting opinion Kerestina,
But I beg to differ. Its only expensive if u make it that way.
For example, Copts in Egypt wait until they are 50 years old to get married cos they can't afford to purchase a house/flat? For the life of me, why not rent a place!??
i agree relationships only become expensive if u make it.....but men seem to overload women with presents most of which r quite expensive b4 they've even reached marriage or enagagment even... u have the bday presse'. going out to dinner, family presse', forgivness prese.....its not neccessary....
money cannot buy love or happinees.. but men have this urge to impress
Men do not so much have the 'urge to impress' so much as they are 'compelled' to impress. When entering a relationship with a girl you are not only trying to impress her, you are also trying to impress her parents. This is something people seem to forget. Now, of course, I'm talking about this scenario in the sense of 'proper' Coptic dating, that is to say, both sets of parents are in fact aware that their children are seeing each other and, while they may be wary, do approve the behaviour. I think guys would love it if a girl was as simple and non-demanding (not sure if this is a word) as you suggest they can be. But again, there's a lot at stake, and one cannot discount the importance of parents in all of this.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
Men do not so much have the 'urge to impress' so much as they are 'compelled' to impress. When entering a relationship with a girl you are not only trying to impress her, you are also trying to impress her parents. This is something people seem to forget. Now, of course, I'm talking about this scenario in the sense of 'proper' Coptic dating, that is to say, both sets of parents are in fact aware that their children are seeing each other and, while they may be wary, do approve the behaviour. I think guys would love it if a girl was as simple and non-demanding (not sure if this is a word) as you suggest they can be. But again, there's a lot at stake, and one cannot discount the importance of parents in all of this.
Coptic men do it to impress??
That's not true at all... really?? Why?? Who are u trying to impress?? Is this really the way to behave? "trying to impress". I thought its important to "be yourself".
LOL.
I do however, think it is very noble if a man who is poor, marries a girl who is poor, and buys her a big diamond ring; not he's trying to impress her; no - just cos she's worth it.
That's very noble. So Coptic men only do it to impress?? lol
shame.
At no point did I say men do it only to impress. I agree with you entirely: we should not attempt to impress anyone. We should accept and be accepted for who we are. But again, there's a difference between the ideal and the reality. The fact of the matter is, not everyone will accept you if you present a gift that costs $10. There is a direct correlation between how much a person is willing to spend on a girl and how much he loves her (i.e. the more you spend, the more you love her). I'm not saying this is right, and I'm not saying this is how it should be. However, among Egyptians, this is a common reality. There are some very materialistic people out there.
I am curious. My church does not ban dating but the rules are that it stay friendly, no intimacy. I can see your stand for nipping it in the bud earlier and just cutting the dating out, especially when society's standards have been signifigantly lowered toward sex outside of marriage. The Amish do not date. All the young people all get together in a barn and sing, talk, etc. When they court, they do so by the young man coming over to the young woman's house and sitting out on the front porch or maybe in the front room, drinking lemonaide, etc. How do members of the opposite gender get to know each other well enough to marry in your church?
Thanks.
byrdele
Hi there. I am new, probably some of you already have heard from me from other threads. I am byrdele, female, Catholic (yep!), married and have joined this site out of interest for the Coptic Church, not to convert anyone or be converted. I have really learnt a lot about you all just in the few days I've been on the site. I thought of Catholicism and Coptic as being more similar than not, and I still feel that way, but did not know of how many differences exist. It's been interesting.
I am curious. My church does not ban dating but the rules are that it stay friendly, no intimacy. I can see your stand for nipping it in the bud earlier and just cutting the dating out, especially when society's standards have been signifigantly lowered toward sex outside of marriage. The Amish do not date. All the young people all get together in a barn and sing, talk, etc. When they court, they do so by the young man coming over to the young woman's house and sitting out on the front porch or maybe in the front room, drinking lemonaide, etc. How do members of the opposite gender get to know each other well enough to marry in your church?
Thanks.
byrdele
Dating is not 'banned' but alot of restrictions are placed on it, for all the reasons mentioned in this discussion. From a Coptic view, any dating should be leading to marriage.. therefore any two that are obviously not compatible should not be dating...
Friendship is not banned, so you get to know the opposite gender..
I didn't go into much detail.. if you want anything clarified feel free to ask.
byrdele
Hi there. I am new, probably some of you already have heard from me from other threads. I am byrdele, female, Catholic (yep!), married and have joined this site out of interest for the Coptic Church, not to convert anyone or be converted. I have really learnt a lot about you all just in the few days I've been on the site. I thought of Catholicism and Coptic as being more similar than not, and I still feel that way, but did not know of how many differences exist. It's been interesting.
I am curious. My church does not ban dating but the rules are that it stay friendly, no intimacy. I can see your stand for nipping it in the bud earlier and just cutting the dating out, especially when society's standards have been signifigantly lowered toward sex outside of marriage. The Amish do not date. All the young people all get together in a barn and sing, talk, etc. When they court, they do so by the young man coming over to the young woman's house and sitting out on the front porch or maybe in the front room, drinking lemonaide, etc. How do members of the opposite gender get to know each other well enough to marry in your church?
Thanks.
byrdele
Hi. Welcome by,
So, are u Amish then?? Are the Amish catholics??
Anyway, it sounds soo cool how they get married and date.
In the Coptic Church is not really a culture or a nationality. We all generally agree that sex before marriage is unholy and a sin, and we don't use this as a way to build a relationship before marriage. However, having said that, it depends on who; but this is our general belief and there is not ONE priest that will disagree with that.
How do we get to know girls in the Coptic Church? I.e. to court them?? HAHHAH... this is soo funny cos, its stuff that everyone knows but never really said openly. But i'll say it openly.
Method a) They have these European youth conferences and Canadian Youth Conferences etc for the youth to actually "get to know" others like them around europe. There's ussually a good theme in these conventions, but i don't think the theme reflects the purpose, its just an excuse for youth to meet.
Method 2) Going to Church and looking at the "latest summer collection". HAHAHHAH
See what's on offer, and any special deals perhaps? After mass, etc? OR, in the canteen...
Method 3) Sunday School - this is probably the MOST romantic way, cos , in Sunday School, i do admit, 99.9% of us all go for the lesson and so if u do meet someone there, then its probably the MOST natural way.
Method 4) The most common "COPTIC" method available is this: Go and talk to the Coptic Priest and give him your application. He'll do the rest.
I think that is quite typical of the dating experience. I mean even both were not virgins the jealousy and suspicion would still prevail. I know it seems that I am saying dating always leads to sexual relationship, but it often does I believe (well for us teenagers). Even if sex is not involved, you could get jealous of the emotional intimacy with previous partners.
Of course we are not expected to marry whom we engage, but the friendship stage and building up from there, I believe, has no substitute.
Since this is a Coptic site, there is much here that reflects not only Orthodox praxis but also Egyptian cultural practice; Egypt, like most Middle Eastern societies, has what we in the west might regard as a more restrictive attitude towards the relations between young people of different gender. So, some of the differences are, I suspect, cultural.
It is, therefore, interesting to see how those raised in the Coptic Church in Egypt and the diaspora, respond to this topic, since it clearly reflects a diversity of practice - but an identity of Christian approach.
One of the sad things in the west is that so much time is spent, at least in the UK, in 'educating' young people about sexual relations; and so little emphasising the dangers inherent in the prevalent secular attitude to these things; and yet the British media wonder why there are so many teenage girls getting pregnant - they just will not see the connection.
It would be interesting (for those of us way beyond that stage of our lives) to know how those of you still at that stage cope with the pressures that modern society throws at you.
In Christ,
Anglian
You said:
"One of the sad things in the west is that so much time is spent, at least in the UK, in 'educating' young people about sexual relations; and so little emphasising the dangers inherent in the prevalent secular attitude to these things; and yet the British media wonder why there are so many teenage girls getting pregnant - they just will not see the connection."
You're absolutely right. They are increasing public service announcements on the television about "safe sex" (oxymoron if I ever heard one - playing Russian Roulet with your life!) because sexually trasmitted diseases, including AIDS, is increasing in young people in the UK. Then a girl as part of her Christian faith takes a vow of celibacy until marriage and wears a ring to demonstrate that. She wants her friends to see the ring not as a point of pride but to show that they, with God's help, can do it too. I do believe this is a movement started in America, which makes some British even more suspicious because they love us and they hate us - usual family bickering. Anyway, the ring was not allowed by her school as part of the uniform, so her family took it to court. I am thinking "This girl is publically demonstrating her faith in Christ and her obedience to His will about sex, something that the UK authorities are worried about, including the educators, and yet they tell her she can't wear this ring." It makes no sense whatsoever.
I wish I still had the newsletter from a church I used to attend elsewhere. It noted that an African country which decided upon teaching the virtues and safeties of chastity has a very low rate of sex outside of marriage, thus the pandemic of AIDs raging through Africa is not very prevalent in that country, along with all the other things you get when illicit sex is not discouraged. Another African country embarked on a campaign to promote "safe sex". The country is rife with AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases, as well as births outside of marriage, etc. I would kill to get that newsletter back and get the names of those countries.
And, no, QT, I am not an Amish Catholic - lol! And yeah, I still use that word, courting. :)
It is surprising in the west, though, of how many single people religious and non-religious, are turning to time honoured methods of finding a mate, such as meeting the nice boy Auntie Mary knows, or meeting someone through friends in an arranged double date. People are getting tired of the "love" runaround which includes sleeping around, getting dumped, etc. They are beginning to see the point - that we marry for more than just romantic love. I know I married my husband because, yes, I love him, but I was looking more for companionship with him mostly. We had been friends for 4 years preceding our change in feelings, and I knew that I simply felt comfortable around him whereas I did not around so many other guys, even fellow Christians!
I have had lots of friends from the Middle East who meet the opposite gender in a more conservative manner as you, Anglian, have mentioned and some who have had arranged marriages. They wanted it that way. One friend of mine told me that his mother knew him better than anyone else in the world and would look for a girl who would be best for him, and likewise her parents, loving her very much, would look for the right man for her. They were so happy. In fact, I know of 3 arranged marriages which turned out very well. It was my first experience with arranged marriages - I had just moved out from the sleepy US South to California and was meeting people from all over the world. So I realise that things are done differently in the eastern parts of the world, and found out that it works. I once read a poll on marriages which are arranged vs. those which are not, and it said that overall, people in arranged marriages are happier because they are not just running after the erotic love, they are mating for life to be companions, lovers and friends and have gotten along well because, as my friend said, their parents knew them well. What is funny is that my husband is exactly like the type of man my sis and mom figured out I needed. At the time, I was furious to find out that they were discussing the "right" man for me. And then after we'd been married a short while, I just had to laugh. It really does work when the relatives are involved.
God bless.
byrdele
Thank you for a very interesting and thought-provoking post; it would be most interesting to know what the younger people here think.
For my part, I could not agree more with you; and how encouraging to know that some young people are turning to older, and truer, ways of finding that companion for life. No one is saying that there is any fool-proof way of doing this - but it is hard to think of a way more open to grief than the one commonly used in the west.
The case of the young woman with the chastity ring is a most interesting one. Most of the media simply fail to understand her, and I have seen a lot of unpleasant mockery of her; well, well done her for standing up for what she knows to be right.
May the Lord strengthen, comfort and guide her - and may the same be so for all those people who are on her journey.
In Christ,
Anglian
This thread is a question about NOT DATING. I think we need to respect each subject.
For marriage issues etc... please go to the Marriage in OUr Church thread.
I'll post it there.
Dating practices in the west are not all they are cracked up to be by westerners. And many of us felt that. You'd read a ladies' magazine about dating, and it would be so far away from the feelings for A LOT of us. It always included a one-night stand, which most of my friends and I, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof, were not interested in. As a non-religious friend of mine told me "If he loves me enough, he'll wait until we're married. I don't want to give away that part of me unless it is permanent".
I didn't really date, as I mentioned. But I had guys who were interested. Some were TOO interested, if you know what I mean, so I ran in the opposite direction. I was not interested in anyone who was interested in me and vice versa. I think that was a blessing from God, because when I think of what I could have ended up with.... (shudder). Although I knew I should not "date" the way the media suggested, still, I sometimes felt like less than a woman. When the media is pounding away at you like that, it can affect you even when you know what you are doing is right.
I remember shortly after marrying, all of a sudden something just popped in my head as to one of the reasons I was so content. I would never have to worry about the dating game, or lack thereof, or being made to feel inferior because I would not follow the media line, etc. I was with someone for life.
There is enormous pressure on western women. Many fall for it, but not as many as you'd think. We are portrayed as fast and loose, but there are many of us who simply want to do the right thing and either settle down in marriage, or remain celibate but, as my friend said, not give away that part of ourselves. My reasons were out of obedience to God. But had I not been a Christian, I still would have sided with my girlfriend. She is someone who really did/does need a man in her life, although at this point she might be too entrenched in her own habits and wants to have a man. I mean a husband. Had she married early on, I think she would not be the bitter and hermetic person she is today. But, she is introverted, attractive (not pretty), very, very shy and, like me, turned off by the dating game. Some of her aunts did try to fix her up with someone, but she refused. Bad choice. At least she should've met the guy.
As I said, the man I married could not have been more like what my parents wanted than had they picked him out. It is uncanny that my mom and sis described to each other the type of man which would be good for me, and it turned out to be my husband in every detail except one: he is not a scientist. But he does think in a very scientific manner and almost did go into science in university.
My brother, at 50 years old, met the love of his life (they've been married for 2 years now) on a Christian internet dating service. They met for a meal in a restaurant, talked a bit, met for coffee a few times and then decided to get married. That is another way some people are meeting. It has its downs - you might not be meeting the person you think you are meeting, but in his case, they lived in the same city and were able to meet on neutral ground. I had another friend who met her husband through a Christian pen-pal service. Again, you have to be a bit wary, but they were both prudent and met on neutral ground and got married almost immediately.
So the tide is turning, but slowly. I hope it continues to turn because the whole idea in the west of "dating" is just so outlandish that it breaks hearts and compromises values. God is not honoured in this way. When I was in high school, I kept hearing that these were the best years of my life (this is when the dating starts). I finally asked my sis why they were not really happy years. Part of it is the dating - if you don't date, you're a nerd. If you date someone who is not with the "in" gang, you're a nerd. If you date, unless it is with someone of your own values, you're expected to give more than you should and, if you don't, you're a nerd. Kids at that age are so vulnerable to peer pressure and ethics are not taught in the schools anymore. Btw, many high school kids do NOT date, despite the Hollywood movies you see.
Anyway, that's enough from me.
God bless.
byrdele
Just something to add about dating practices in the east vs. the west.
Dating practices in the west are not all they are cracked up to be by westerners. And many of us felt that. You'd read a ladies' magazine about dating, and it would be so far away from the feelings for A LOT of us. It always included a one-night stand, which most of my friends and I, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof, were not interested in. As a non-religious friend of mine told me "If he loves me enough, he'll wait until we're married. I don't want to give away that part of me unless it is permanent".
I didn't really date, as I mentioned. But I had guys who were interested. Some were TOO interested, if you know what I mean, so I ran in the opposite direction. I was not interested in anyone who was interested in me and vice versa. I think that was a blessing from God, because when I think of what I could have ended up with.... (shudder). Although I knew I should not "date" the way the media suggested, still, I sometimes felt like less than a woman. When the media is pounding away at you like that, it can affect you even when you know what you are doing is right.
I remember shortly after marrying, all of a sudden something just popped in my head as to one of the reasons I was so content. I would never have to worry about the dating game, or lack thereof, or being made to feel inferior because I would not follow the media line, etc. I was with someone for life.
There is enormous pressure on western women. Many fall for it, but not as many as you'd think. We are portrayed as fast and loose, but there are many of us who simply want to do the right thing and either settle down in marriage, or remain celibate but, as my friend said, not give away that part of ourselves. My reasons were out of obedience to God. But had I not been a Christian, I still would have sided with my girlfriend. She is someone who really did/does need a man in her life, although at this point she might be too entrenched in her own habits and wants to have a man. I mean a husband. Had she married early on, I think she would not be the bitter and hermetic person she is today. But, she is introverted, attractive (not pretty), very, very shy and, like me, turned off by the dating game. Some of her aunts did try to fix her up with someone, but she refused. Bad choice. At least she should've met the guy.
As I said, the man I married could not have been more like what my parents wanted than had they picked him out. It is uncanny that my mom and sis described to each other the type of man which would be good for me, and it turned out to be my husband in every detail except one: he is not a scientist. But he does think in a very scientific manner and almost did go into science in university.
My brother, at 50 years old, met the love of his life (they've been married for 2 years now) on a Christian internet dating service. They met for a meal in a restaurant, talked a bit, met for coffee a few times and then decided to get married. That is another way some people are meeting. It has its downs - you might not be meeting the person you think you are meeting, but in his case, they lived in the same city and were able to meet on neutral ground. I had another friend who met her husband through a Christian pen-pal service. Again, you have to be a bit wary, but they were both prudent and met on neutral ground and got married almost immediately.
So the tide is turning, but slowly. I hope it continues to turn because the whole idea in the west of "dating" is just so outlandish that it breaks hearts and compromises values. God is not honoured in this way. When I was in high school, I kept hearing that these were the best years of my life (this is when the dating starts). I finally asked my sis why they were not really happy years. Part of it is the dating - if you don't date, you're a nerd. If you date someone who is not with the "in" gang, you're a nerd. If you date, unless it is with someone of your own values, you're expected to give more than you should and, if you don't, you're a nerd. Kids at that age are so vulnerable to peer pressure and ethics are not taught in the schools anymore. Btw, many high school kids do NOT date, despite the Hollywood movies you see.
Anyway, that's enough from me.
God bless.
byrdele
So, what is the ideal christian way of dating??
Going up to a girl, in a Piazza opposite the river seine in summer time, asking her for a dance in an open air dance festival of French Folklore dancing? Walking her home or to the bus stop afterwards, in the warm summer night?
That's soo idealistic.. that it rarely happens.
As u mentioned it, even your brother met his wife in an internet dating site. Is that now the IDEAL Christian way to meet your future wife/husband? I mean, on an internet dating service, u definately cannot touch or commit adultary over the net. So, you're safe in taht respect?? LOL.. i guess, if u wanna be really orthodox about it, u could send an email to her parents saying u have honourable intentions??
What is the IDEAL Christian way to meet and date girls then?