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Need help regarding faith, but not sure what kind :(
Basically I need some help from you guys and God, but to be frank I'm not sure what kind of help.
I guess the best thing to do would be to start with my problems;
Essentially, I have arrived at the choice of Coptic Christianity after much spiritual searching, and it has felt right for most of the time I've been "believing" in it, and I thought I'd discovered the truth. However, lately I've been feeling huge doubts, and I don't know what to do to counter them, I've tried asking for God to help me in my disbelief as someone suggested earlier when I mentioned this issue a while back. However, after trying this, it feels like I'm avoiding the issue, and it feels like I don't, deep down inside, feel confident when I say "I believe Lord, help me in my disbelief".
Also, I have the problem of grasping the concept of Hell. While I can accept God's Judgement is eternal, and that "His ways are Higher than [our] ways", I cannot get my head around how Hell, an eternal seperation from our Father, and eternal punishment, can be fair. It just boggles my mind, that for example, some people who truely believe they are following God how he wants them to, but then likely end up in Hell. I'm not saying I doubt the Judgement of God is fair, rather I'm having trouble getting my head around it, and hope perhaps someone can answer this.
Also, on the topic of Hell, I have heard Hell is seperation of God, but how can man, or anything at all for that matter, exist apart from God? Isn't He the "Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End"? How can someone exist without God?
Also, how come there are so many people so adamant they are correct in their faith, such as Jews and Muslims who will be punished? I realise that some are probably their religion out of pride or want, but what about those that genuinely believe what they follow?
I pray someone can answer these problems as they are really giving me trouble
I guess the best thing to do would be to start with my problems;
Essentially, I have arrived at the choice of Coptic Christianity after much spiritual searching, and it has felt right for most of the time I've been "believing" in it, and I thought I'd discovered the truth. However, lately I've been feeling huge doubts, and I don't know what to do to counter them, I've tried asking for God to help me in my disbelief as someone suggested earlier when I mentioned this issue a while back. However, after trying this, it feels like I'm avoiding the issue, and it feels like I don't, deep down inside, feel confident when I say "I believe Lord, help me in my disbelief".
Also, I have the problem of grasping the concept of Hell. While I can accept God's Judgement is eternal, and that "His ways are Higher than [our] ways", I cannot get my head around how Hell, an eternal seperation from our Father, and eternal punishment, can be fair. It just boggles my mind, that for example, some people who truely believe they are following God how he wants them to, but then likely end up in Hell. I'm not saying I doubt the Judgement of God is fair, rather I'm having trouble getting my head around it, and hope perhaps someone can answer this.
Also, on the topic of Hell, I have heard Hell is seperation of God, but how can man, or anything at all for that matter, exist apart from God? Isn't He the "Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End"? How can someone exist without God?
Also, how come there are so many people so adamant they are correct in their faith, such as Jews and Muslims who will be punished? I realise that some are probably their religion out of pride or want, but what about those that genuinely believe what they follow?
I pray someone can answer these problems as they are really giving me trouble
Comments
Also, I have the problem of grasping the concept of Hell. While I can accept God's Judgement is eternal, and that "His ways are Higher than [our] ways", I cannot get my head around how Hell, an eternal seperation from our Father, and eternal punishment, can be fair. It just boggles my mind, that for example, some people who truely believe they are following God how he wants them to, but then likely end up in Hell. I'm not saying I doubt the Judgement of God is fair, rather I'm having trouble getting my head around it, and hope perhaps someone can answer this.
Also, on the topic of Hell, I have heard Hell is seperation of God, but how can man, or anything at all for that matter, exist apart from God? Isn't He the "Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End"? How can someone exist without God?
With regards to the question of hell, I think the following article gives the best possible answer to your question. Its long, but very much worth the read.
http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm
Hope this will help you.
You ask three (or more) questions. I have an answer for the first right now but for the other questions, later hopefully.
I quote from a translated lecture of HH Pope Shenouda:
"Do Not Postpone: If the grace of God worked in your heart and you felt a strong desire to repent, do not hesitate not even for a few minutes...
You do not know, perhaps the motive might cease as well as the outside effect, then the desire to repent goes away and when you try to look for repentance you will not find it...
Your deferment for repentance will give the devil a chance to be prepared for you and to put obstacles in your way. When he knows of your intention to repent, his wars will become fierce and he will make repentance difficult for you...
The Bible considers your rejection of the voice of God, a kind of a hardness of the heart. The Divine Inspiration says, "Today if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts." (Heb. 3:15). Also such deferment, or non-response to the voice of God and His work in you is considered as giving little value to the work of grace.
God might allow His grace to be taken away from you, or deliver you to the hands of your enemies or let you be humiliated by sin in order that you may know the value of the grace you rejected and refuse it no more afterwards...
The prodigal son, when he came to himself, he said, "I will arise and go to my father." (Luke 15:18). Immediately he arose and went... He seized opportunity of the spiritual warmth before it became cool in the heart and before it was snatched by the enemy...
The Bible says, "Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. " (Eph. 5: l6). Therefore, benefit from the time in which you feel a longing for God; turn such a desire into practical fact showing that you seek God as He seeks you...
Many of those who delayed repentance never repented. Or when they tried to repent later they found it very difficult. And what is worse, many of them no longer had the wish to repent...!
Every time you delay repentance, say to yourself what is the meaning of this? Does it mean that you forsake God's reconciliation?! Or do you prefer to continue resisting Him?! Or do you not mind to strife with God and wound His love?"
I understand the fight now is about "is God really just?! if so why does He say He will burn many in Hell? is it worth it? I am a sinner so how can I be sure or what are my chances to go to the Kingdom?"
Laziness is one of the known weapons in the arsenal of the enemy. Does time heal in this case? no! worse: losing time is dangerous and the Lord may be offended. Once you stand and move to get closer to the Lord, He will immediately act to support you. He only wants you to show your good will, physically and spiritually.
GBU
What I point to is this: when one wants to be fiery in the spirit "Do Not Postpone..."
[quote author=WMA link=board=1;threadid=4108;start=0#msg57374 date=1152291029]
Also, I have the problem of grasping the concept of Hell. While I can accept God's Judgement is eternal, and that "His ways are Higher than [our] ways", I cannot get my head around how Hell, an eternal seperation from our Father, and eternal punishment, can be fair. It just boggles my mind, that for example, some people who truely believe they are following God how he wants them to, but then likely end up in Hell. I'm not saying I doubt the Judgement of God is fair, rather I'm having trouble getting my head around it, and hope perhaps someone can answer this.
Also, on the topic of Hell, I have heard Hell is seperation of God, but how can man, or anything at all for that matter, exist apart from God? Isn't He the "Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End"? How can someone exist without God?
With regards to the question of hell, I think the following article gives the best possible answer to your question. Its long, but very much worth the read.
http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm
Hope this will help you.
While I thank you for the article, it is for me creating more seemingly questions than answers and doesn't seem to be addressing the problems Im having, and in doing so is giving rise to further doubts :'(
While I thank you for the article, it is for me creating more seemingly questions than answers and doesn't seem to be addressing the problems Im having, and in doing so is giving rise to further doubts :'(
The question you asked was essentially how can God send people to hell - its unfair - and how can people be separated from God who is everywhere.
Dr. Kalomiros answers both these questions very clearly (and very well in my opinion) using the Bible and the Church Fathers.
I would suggest that if you are still having doubts after reading this article, you have either not read it properly, or the intent of your original questions was different from what your first post seemed to suggest.
Take some time and re-read through the article - all of it - slowly.
But if for example, a christian gets to doubt sacraments and doctrine then with time she/he would be falsely relieved from such thoughts and feelings of needing to repent. There is a gradual build-up of a false sense of security. With time, the person reaches a state of belief where there is no reason to repent.
Ok, now what your experiencing is perfectly normal. We'll begin with this belief of questioning your faith. Let me tell you, you are not the only one. How many of us, raised into the Coptic Church have actually questioned it? Do you know what that is that is playing with your mind and making you question your new-found faith? THE DEVIL!!!!
You have found this new faith, the right faith, the faith that will lead you into heaven (not hell- don't be scared, but I'll discuss that later), and the devil cannot comprehend what is happening. You have come from a background with little known about Christianity and entered this world of utter love of the Lord, and the devil will do ANYTHING it can to take you over to his side. Be strong in Christ, continue prayer. "I can do all things in Christ, who strengthens me."
The devil will never be able to tempt you so long as you are praying. The devil will do anything and I mean anything to take you away from Christ. The angels were dancing in heaven when you came running to Christ and the devil was screaming in hell. Remember WMA, we are in a war with the devil. Our armour is the bible, prayer, confession and Holy Communion (which you will be a part of ;)) and Christ is our shield. He told us that we will be protected by him in the shadow of his wings. So don't be scared and yes, it's ok to question because it's evident that you have found Christ as the devil now wants to take you away from him.
Now coming back to this issue of heaven and hell. By no means are any of God's children going to suffer the torments of hell, especially you. Havn't you heard the verse from Luke, Where Jesus says "I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance." Heaven is rejoicing in your return to Christ, so why would Christ condemn you to hell? It doesn't make sense does it. WMA don't be scred, God loves you, he loves all his children. Yes, God is just, but don't forget he is merciful. He will give you opportunity to repent and turn to him. You really think that he would want HIS children to burn in hell? I think not. So it's all good. Be joyous in the Lord for he has redeemed you.
God Bless,
Take Care,
Mazza
P.S. If you need anything else, just pm me.
Question 1: Which other religion besides Christianity has had their god(s) come down to save the humans they had created from the slavery of sin?
2: Which other god(s) have humiliated themselves to the extent where they have become a human being and Lived with us.
3. Which other form of christianity has existed since the beginning of the formation of christianity other than orthodoxy and which other church has not altered their belief and has not fought for what is right for 2 millenia?
Finally question 4: Who are we as human beings to say who should live in heaven or go to hell. Are we God to truly know the hearts of others and know who has locked their hearts away from him to the extent where they are going to hell? We will never be able to tell....
As for the people who convert to a non-orthodox christianity, God knows the true purpose of their hearts and knows if they are worthy to go to heaven. If someone truly loves God, He will not abandon them and they will come to Him.
Hope i helped...God Bless
I realise many, though having honest intentions, have just attempted to preach a sermon to you, and poorly at that. I understand you want straight and blunt answers, but some of the questions you pose simply do not have such straight and blunt answers simply because God has not revealed them to His Church to any explicit extent. Maybe because it is simply not for us to know, or of no benefit to our personal salvation. I want you to realise that you are personally setting up this unfairness in your own head; your mind is not drawing a rational conclusion, rather it is making unwarranted presumptions and drawing a reductionist conclusion upon those presumptions.
You are hypothesising a situation i.e. that a person who genuinely believes in God and genuinely wishes to follow Him, may be sent to hell in spite of their genuineness, and then drawing the conclusion that this is not fair. How about we start with the premise that everything God does is fair in an absolute sense. No one is going to go to hell accidentally, or by virtue of certain incidental circumstances. We have to realise that there is a certain interaction between God and each and every individual human being, via the medium of His Grace; it is a call-response type interaction, and we in our limited capacity have no idea regarding the nature of that interaction as it occurs within our neighbours, friends or even family. That synergic interaction is God's attempt to bring that individual to His salvation. Ultimately therefore, if a certain indivudal goes to hell, we can be sure, upon the premise of God's fairness, that regardless of what we, according to our limited human capacity, perceive of that individual externally (e.g. that they are genuine seekers of God), that God did everything within His capacity to call that person to His salvation, and that that hypothetical person who ended up in hell, is there by choice, because he/she consistently rejected the divine calls he/she received. You have to understand that this separation from God, is not an actual separation; it is an experiential separation. God is omnipresent, and there is nowhere, whether geographically or otherwise where He is not there.
For a Christian, doubts in Christianity and calls to other religions are from Satan, yet to a Muslim, calls to other religions, specifically Christianity will oft be regarded as from Satan. How is one meant to differentiate?
I'm not quite sure I follow. Are you saying that it's not a literal seperation, but rather a feeling of being far from God, such as when you commit a sin?
What about people who are willing to die for their faith? Surely those people are sincere? I find it extremely[I can't emphasis that word enough] hard to believe that of all the people who've come in the world, that all of those who are in religions other than Coptic Christianity [or Judaism before Christ came] made their choice to go to those religions in a non-sincere search for God.
Also there is no extremism here: in what other religion than christianity do you find such superior Love and doctrine, with promises of saintly eternal life to be enjoyed with God in the Kingdom of Heavens and such great miracles? etc
We believe in the authenticity of the Coptic Orthodox Church not because many here are born as such but because as we grow up and learn more, we find our Church has and is still trying to stick very closely to the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles, conserving the tradition and the Sacraments as were once given, while suffering very high costs doing that. Though some do sadly lose this gift at some point, willingly or by being careless.
We do not assume that all people will perish, of course not! God knows every thought and judges through His Mercy, not man's. Still many will undoubtedly perish.
If there is such case where God has not revealed Himself to someone, logically this person will not be judged on the same criteria but it is God's business alone not ours.
After Jesus Christ Himself came, teached, was crucified to redeem us and resurrected, the situation became different because he came for ALL people and established the last Covenant. This also means that all who seek Him will someway somewhere have the opportunity to know Him.
Yes people willing to die for their faith must be sincere, but not necessarily right. How many times we hear and see young men pushed by others giving the strongest of motives to convince them to throw their lives away (and it does not matter if they destroy themselves and other people?). Does this imply they must be right? Many wars were made using religious propaganda to use the masses so they willingly follow deadly orders.
If you believe in Jesus with your own free will then stand firm and mostly open your heart (it is not just a matter of rationale). You can pray for all other people like many of us do (and during liturgies) and be sure He will save you when you join His Church. I am sure He will save many too (christians or others) because that is His Will and Joy to save. He came to save all the sinners of the world, not some race or tongue but ALL. Also outside the Church, some may be more sincere than some in the inside, but this is a personal matter and usually only God can know the truth of these persons.
You will also have many opportunities to help others so they may be saved by Him, it is part of every christian's mission in life to be His witness.
Since we do know about the right way we do not try to do otherwise because we believe. If we are careless that is where we may really lose. It is very recomforting to know our Church is much safer in matters of faith and practice, not just by words or arguments, but this is proven throughout its history and its generations, since St Mark gave it the good news about the Kingdom of God.
Sorry for this long reply.
GBU WMA
PS. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2022:16;&version=31;
Sorry for not being able to reply to you earlier; I am in fact overseas and will be for another week or so. I would deem that to be a sound conclusion to draw on account of its generality. Being sincere for a cause does not mean being sincere for The Truth. Even if that person believes his cause to be for The Truth, the very fact he doesn't recognise it as a falsehood is due to his rejection of the Grace of God which illuminates the mind and heart to the actual Truth. We don't know why or how exactly this person has rejected the divine call which itself is an inner mystery, since only God knows the inner thoughts and feelings of man. The fact God has access to these inner thoughts and feelings, and the fact we do not, renders it only fair that we not jump to conclusions about what is fair or not fair for God to do, for fairness can only be fairly judged in the first place if it is judged in light of all the facts. Since we do not know all the facts, but rather, we only know what we can externally gather through perception and interaction, it would be unfair on our part to accuse God of being unfair. I think God deserves to be given the benefit of any finite human doubt; don't you?
You make the assumption that Christ's consummate and eternal purpose is to ensure eternal life for as many individuals as possible. While on the outskirts of such a proposition, this statement would seem correct.....it is not entirely correct.
Christ's ultimate purpose is that we, His creation, attain eternal happiness. Eternal life is merely the consequence of procuring eternal happiness. Yet, for eternal happiness to manifest itself an individual must unite Himself wholly with the source of such blissfulness. In other words, there is no means of salvaging eternal happiness if one does not first unite himself with Christ.
Thus, whenever a questioner debates the reality of Hell or Heaven it is necessary to ask what there definition of Hell or heaven truly comprises itself of. If hellfire is merely a physical domain to which people are sent.... then it might seem logically possible for God to send all men into Heaven. However, being that this interpretation of Hell is merely metaphorical and intuitively speculative.... there is no reason to believe Hell is soley a physical torturing chamber. Rather, it is more conscionable to attribute the very persona of Christ to the repercussions of hellfire--just as was done earlier to the concept of eternal happiness. Hell would be the very epitome of a world where Christ was non-existence or un-reachable.
The individual who rejects a relationship with Christ, is presently living in Hell already. Therefore as C.S. Lewis best puts it...for the individual who hates God.....even Heaven would be a Hell for him. Milton's "Which way I fly is hell; myself am hell" is prolifically fit for such a case.
Secondly, you are presuming that it is somehow logically possible for God to send all people into Heaven without jettisoning their free will. Yet, this seems to me, at the very least, a credulous perspective. It is logically impossible to make someone freely do something. Thus, if we are truly free and God has willed us to be free, then He cannot guarantee how free creatures will choose. Simply because there are possible worlds where everyone does as God desires, it may not be feasible for God to create such worlds. For in any given case, it may possible that were God to create such a world creatures could freely go wrong and would not follow in the ways of God. God cannot force someone to freely follow Him.
Thirdly, you are presuming that eternal punishment is unfit for a finite number of sins done by an individual on earth. I agree if man was punished eternally for a finite number of sins, it would seem that God was acting unfairly. However, given an infinite number of sins eternal punishment would then be a suitable decree for the individual at fault. Now, obviously while no one can perform an infinite number of sins in this lifetime, what of the afterlife. Insofar as the damned and condemned continue to curse and hate god, they are continually committing sin against Him, even in the afterlife. Their sinning is literally infinite in number and, thus, eternal punishment becomes all the more fitting. As Dr. William Lane Craig best explicates the matter, "....they [the damned] continue to sin, and thus they incur further punishment. And thus, in a real sense hell is self-perpetuating: because the sinning goes on forever, the punishment goes on forever."
Finally, as best placed in Dr. Craig’s own words; "I want to suggest that there may be in fact a sin of infinite gravity and proportion which does merit eternal punishment, and this would be the sin of irrevocably rejecting God and His forgiveness. It seems to me that for a creature to spit in the face of God, His Creator--to reject God irrevocably--is a sin of infinite proportion and could well merit eternal punishment." (Does God Exist? 28.)
As Iqbal placed it, it is irrelevant to assume that on behalf of believing something is the truth....it necessarily must then be true. Christ answers Pilate's stark retort in John 18: 37-38 stating,
"You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
I am deducing therefore, that if any man rejects Christ, he is simply not looking for the truth. Beyond the scope of natural and prophetic revelation, is the very personal revelation and testimony of Christ through His saints that convicts the unbeliever. In light of the given reasons up above and the realization that Christ never incarnated to make bad people good: rather dead people alive......I find no reason to consider the concept of Hell as being unfair, by any means.
As Lewis describes, there are two types of people in this world: Those who bend the knee to God and say "You're will be done" and those who refuse to bend the knee, to which god replies "Ok then, you're will be done".
Great question!
God bless you.
When you encounter these thoughts, try not to look at them from a man based perspective. What I mean by that is dont limit your thought to what is possible for man. Remember what Jesus said "with men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible". When God created the earth he created it with a limitation. He created the body to be limited for a certain number of years, but the spirit he created to live forever.
Continue praying, the best thing to do is pray and fast if your really in doubt.
God Bless
Meena
I may have something to add regarding the Hell subject.
I think your problem stems from the fact that you believe you know what God will do to those good people who just happen to be not baptized. Well, what you know about that is what is fair. But are you forgetting that as unlimitedly fair God is, He is also unlimitedly merciful?
Because we are limited human beings, it is not within our power to imagine a "bad deed" face with an action that is both fair or merciful. It has to be either one or the other. When someone steels, the fair thing to do is to send them to jail. But sometimes, because they are really old and did what they did under inhuman circumstances, we employ mercy and let them go. See? To punish them is fair and to let them go is merciful. Can you suggest another course of action that is both? I bet you can't.
But we are not talking about ourselves here. We will not be responsible for deciding what to do with people who don't go to Heaven. Thank God for that, huh? We will probably be either unfair or unmerciful. But that's because we are limited in out powers. God, the Almighty judge, can be both fair and merciful. With his unlimited power and love, he knows how to deal with those people that you are worried about. Asking how would be both silly and conceited. It would be silly because we should know that God is more merciful than us. He did die for us. We should be sure he cares more about those people than we do. Asking how would also be conceited because we would then pretent to have the capability of encompassing God unlimitedness with our limited mind.
So, WMA, my point is this; those people that you are worried about, God is even more and more worried. You think you care with your humanly limited heart? Imagine how much God cares with His unlimited love. Don't worry. Just pray for them. The right and good thing will be done by the most righteous and good of all, Our Saviour Jesus Christ.
I'd like to to talk a bit about Heaven. I mean, if we are to understand Hell, understanding Heaven should help. What is Heaven? Is it a physical place? How are the levels dvided there? Surely not everyone will be in the same level, right?
Well, our experience of Heaven in the eternal life will depend on our experience of God in our mortal life. How much we will be "higher in level" in Heaven is directly proportional with how much we love God on Earth. The "level" is not a place, it's a feeling. We feel higher in Heaven if we love God more, because the love of God is eternal and we take it with us from our life on earth to our eternal life.
If this is Heaven then Hell is probably the complete opposite; not having the love of God in the eternal life. And if you don't have that Divine love, what is there to do in eternity except just sit there and weep.. forevermore.
My friend and brother, if people end up in Heaven, it's not something that God does to them. It is something that they do to themselves by not loving God in their lives. And if they just happen to be one of those people who were not blessed enough to be born Christian yet they genuinely seek God, He will reveal Himself to them, just as He did with you. Be sure of that and don't worry. Their experience of eternity will then depend on how much of God they accept and love.
I hope I have helped a little. I pray that the Lord will help you send the answers to your question in the right time. Just do as the Psalms ask us to do;
Wait on the Lord, And He shall stregthen your heart; Wait, I say, on the Lord.
In Christ,
Nora