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Psalm 50

LifeinChristLifeinChrist
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
why is psalm 51 written as psalm 50 in the agpeya?

Comments

  • whywhy
    in the arabic agbeya..its written properly..

    but in the english it isnt..howeverthe right psalm number is in bracets next to it..
  • Unknown
    [quote author=LifeinChrist link=board=4;threadid=4153;start=0#msg57727 date=1153021359]
    why is psalm 51 written as psalm 50 in the agpeya?


    The Old Testament in most English Bibles, like the NKJV, NIV, NASB, ESV, etc. are all translated from the Jewish Old Testament manuscripts, known as the Masoretic texts.

    The Orthodox Church, however, has always used the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament as its official version, and not the Hebrew used by Jews and Protestants.

    The Jews split Psalm 9 into two Psalms, and so every Psalm after 9 is one number higher in the Hebrew than in the Greek. And so Psalm 51 in the Hebrew is number 50 in the Greek.

    The Psalms in the Agpeya are translated from the Greek Old Testament, rather than the Hebrew, and so they use the Greek numbering - but since most English Bibles are translated from the Hebrew, English translations of the Agpeya normally have the Jewish numbering in brackets to help people.

    So Psalm 50 is correct way for Orthodox Christians to number the Psalm of repentance.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Orthodox11 link=board=4;threadid=4153;start=0#msg57733 date=1153078296]
    [quote author=LifeinChrist link=board=4;threadid=4153;start=0#msg57727 date=1153021359]
    why is psalm 51 written as psalm 50 in the agpeya?

    The Orthodox Church, however, has always used the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament as its official version, and not the Hebrew used by Jews and Protestants.


    i agree with you but just want to verify that you shouldn't generlize the translation the The Orthodox Church use because in our church here in New Jersey, we use NKJV and in our Pascha book and also for everything else including the katameros readings. may be sometimes we use the pslam Septuagint of ApostlesBible.com (as a standerized version because there is in fact more than one Septuagint translation), just for the fact that it kind of follows the coptic and the arabic.
    H.H. himself uses NKJV for his own use and he recommendes it to everyone of the congergation. But of course he wouldn't order the churchs to use a spicific one.
  • Unknown
    [quote author=minagir link=board=4;threadid=4153;start=0#msg57735 date=1153103036]
    i agree with you but just want to verify that you shouldn't generlize the translation the The Orthodox Church use because in our church here in New Jersey, we use NKJV and in our Pascha book and also for everything else including the katameros readings.

    H.H. himself uses NKJV for his own use and he recommendes it to everyone of the congergation. But of course he wouldn't order the churchs to use a spicific one.


    This is not a question of generalising. The NKJV is:
    1. A Protestant revision of an Anglican translation (the KJV)
    2. The Old Testament of the NKJV is translated from the Hebrew Masoretic Texts, which is used by Protestants and Jews, and not from the Greek Septuagint, which was the Old Testament used by the Apostles and all the Church Fathers, and which is the basis of the Old Testament translation into the Coptic language.

    The reason the NKJV is recommended by the COC for general use by English speaking faithful is because it is, overall, one of the best, most readable, and widely accessible translations into English.

    But this does not change the fact that the official Old Testament version of the Orthodox Church has always been the Greek Septuagint, and not the Masoretic Texts favoured by the Jews and the Protestants.


    may be sometimes we use the pslam Septuagint of ApostlesBible.com (as a standerized version because there is in fact more than one Septuagint translation), just for the fact that it kind of follows the coptic and the arabic.

    And this is because the Coptic and Arabic were translated from the Greek Septuagint. The Apostles Bible is a modern language revision of Sir Lancelot Brenton's translation of the Septuagint into English (but with the Deuterocanon removed). As far as I know, these are currently the only translations of the Septuagint into English.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Orthodox11 link=board=4;threadid=4153;start=0#msg57748 date=1153132261]
    [quote author=minagir link=board=4;threadid=4153;start=0#msg57735 date=1153103036]
    i agree with you but just want to verify that you shouldn't generlize the translation the The Orthodox Church use because in our church here in New Jersey, we use NKJV and in our Pascha book and also for everything else including the katameros readings.

    H.H. himself uses NKJV for his own use and he recommendes it to everyone of the congergation. But of course he wouldn't order the churchs to use a spicific one.


    This is not a question of generalising. The NKJV is:
    1. A Protestant revision of an Anglican translation (the KJV)
    2. The Old Testament of the NKJV is translated from the Hebrew Masoretic Texts, which is used by Protestants and Jews, and not from the Greek Septuagint, which was the Old Testament used by the Apostles and all the Church Fathers, and which is the basis of the Old Testament translation into the Coptic language.

    The reason the NKJV is recommended by the COC for general use by English speaking faithful is because it is, overall, one of the best, most readable, and widely accessible translations into English.

    But this does not change the fact that the official Old Testament version of the Orthodox Church has always been the Greek Septuagint, and not the Masoretic Texts favoured by the Jews and the Protestants.


    may be sometimes we use the pslam Septuagint of ApostlesBible.com (as a standerized version because there is in fact more than one Septuagint translation), just for the fact that it kind of follows the coptic and the arabic.

    And this is because the Coptic and Arabic were translated from the Greek Septuagint. The Apostles Bible is a modern language revision of Sir Lancelot Brenton's translation of the Septuagint into English (but with the Deuterocanon removed). As far as I know, these are currently the only translations of the Septuagint into English.


    I first wanted to ask you (even tho i know a little about it), what is the story of the Greek Septuagint version of the old testment?

    also you said:
    [quote author=Orthodox11 link=board=4;threadid=4153;start=0#msg57748 date=1153132261]
    The reason the NKJV is recommended by the COC for general use by English speaking faithful is because it is, overall, one of the best, most readable, and widely accessible translations into English.


    Isn't this the whole point of the bible??? people should be able to understand the bible. you know how hard is it to somtimes understand the Septuagint version of the readings that the LA diocese use.

    I'll wait for your answer.
  • Unknown
    [quote author=minagir link=board=4;threadid=4153;start=0#msg57762 date=1153164795]
    I first wanted to ask you (even tho i know a little about it), what is the story of the Greek Septuagint version of the old testment?


    In the 3rd century B.C. the Emperor Ptolemy ordered that the Old Testament be translated from its original Hebrew into Greek. Seventy pious Jews gathered in Alexandria, Egypt to do this. Each of the seventy rabbis would translate a section by themselves, then they would get together and compare their translations. By the grace of God, all 70 translations were identical. This shows that the Septuagint was a divinely inspired translation.

    When the Apostles came to write the New Testament, this is the version of the OT they used. If you look OT quotations in the New Testament you'll notice they agree with the Septuagint, but often dissagree with the Masoretic Texts.

    When the Old Testament was later translated into Coptic, it was the Greek Septuagint, not the Masoretic Texts, which were used.

    [quote author=minagir link=board=4;threadid=4153;start=0#msg57762 date=1153164795]
    Isn't this the whole point of the bible??? people should be able to understand the bible. you know how hard is it to somtimes understand the Septuagint version of the readings that the LA diocese use.

    I'll wait for your answer.


    This is not really relevant to the discussion. The question was "Why is Psalm 51 called 50 in the Agpeya?" and Why replied stating that the number in the brackets (i.e. the Hebrew) was the correct number. I replied to the first question by saying that its called Psalm 50 because this is the number of this Psalm in the Septuagint. I replied to Why's post by noting that, from the Orthodox perspective, the correct number is 50, not 51, since we hold the Septuagint, not the Masoretic Texts, to be authoritative.

    Yes, the purpose of translation is to allow those who do not speak a certain language to understand what a text is saying - but, like I said, this is superflous to the issue being discussed, which is not about which English translations should be used in church, but the numbering of the Psalms and which system of numbering is correct. I don't really see your point.
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