I say this because you clearly view the fall, sin and redemption in Augustinian terms. While he is the father of Latin theology - and the Protestant reformers biggest influence - he has never been particularly influential in the East.
God said to Adam, "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil—of it ye shall not eat, but in whatsoever day ye eat of it, ye shall surely die" (Gen 2:17). Augustine understood this as "If you eat the fruit, I will kill you." On this basis, Western theologians have always seen death as a punishment from God.
Man was created to be in communion with God, just like a fish is created to live in the water. Just as when the fish is taken out of the water, when man is separated from God, we die. When Adam went against the commandments of God, he - using his free will - wilfully separated himself from God, and for this reason became subject to death.
When a parent says to a child "don't touch the stove, or you'll get burned," that does not mean "if you touch the stove, I will burn you." In the same way, God was giving Adam a loving warning, not a threat.
Because the Latins, following Augustine, have always viewed death as a punishment from God, the purpose of redemption has always been to for God to "lift the curse." And so they see salvation purely in terms of Christ dying to appease an angry God, facilitating His forgiveness of us.
Orthodox theologians, on the other hand, have always been of the opinion that Christ became a man - taking into Himself a complete human nature - so as to heal us. He died, since He was fully man, but because He was also fully God, death could not hold Him - and so He broke its binding power, opening the way to resurrection for all of us.
The same thing goes for heaven and hell. Latins view hell as a punishment. Protestants in particular hold the view that, we all deserve punishment and so that is man's 'default position' so to speak. If we believe, our debt has been paid, and we can go to heaven.
They justify such a legal concept of salvation on the concept of God's "justice." However, St. Isaac the Syrian says that "Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright, His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. 'He is good,' He says, 'to the evil and impious.'"
If a man has lived his whole life in light, a brighter light will give him further illumination. If a man has lived his entire life in darkness, a bright light will scortch his eyes and be torment. Heaven and hell works the same way, so the Fathers teach.
So it is wrong to suggest that hell is a punishment from God because He is angry with our sins. As Saint Isaac the Syrian says: "He who applies pedagogical punishments in order to give health, is punishing with love, but he who is looking for vengeance, is devoid of love. God punishes with love, not defending Himself — far be it — but He wants to heal His image, and He does not keep His wrath for long. This way of love is the way of uprightness, and it does not change with passion to a defense. A man who is just and wise is like God because he never chastises a man in revenge for wickedness, but only in order to correct him or that others be afraid" (Homily 73).
I will admit I've done a very poor job of explaining this - finding it hard to put it into words - and so I recommend you click on the link below, which answers this question much better than my incoherent babbling: http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm
Please pray for me, a sinner, that God saves me from the fire.
Yes, unfortunately hell does exist. It's an undeniable fact.
WHAT?! you say this as if you can with a snap of your finger prove to me that God exists! Even worse is you stating it as an UNDENIABLE FACT.
Sorry, I know this isn't what this convo is about, and I know this response is delayed...but I just have to say this. I can prove to you God exists...unfortunately, it doesn't involve any finger snapping, but it is in a way that is undeniable. We shall use everybody's favourite topic to prove God...physics ;D. We shall focus on Newton's laws of motion, and more specifically, Newton's first law.
Newton's first law is that "An object in motion stays in motion (at a constant speed in the same direction) and an object at rest stays at rest unless acted upon by an external force".
Now, everything in the universe is an object (the planets, stars, space junk, asteroids etc...). These objects are in motion (the earth revolves around the sun etc...). Now science has proven that there was some form of starting point for our world (unless you care to argue that the earth/sun, stars have always existed and have always been moving). This means that at some point, these objects in our universe were at rest.
According to Newton an object at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an external force. Our universe is not at rest, therefore it had to be acted upon by an external force. Now we have a name for the outside force that set our universe in motion...we call Him God.
Newton's laws of motion are undeniable, scientific facts. There you go, God's existence has been proven. God bless.
Comments
why so?
I say this because you clearly view the fall, sin and redemption in Augustinian terms. While he is the father of Latin theology - and the Protestant reformers biggest influence - he has never been particularly influential in the East.
God said to Adam, "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil—of it ye shall not eat, but in whatsoever day ye eat of it, ye shall surely die" (Gen 2:17). Augustine understood this as "If you eat the fruit, I will kill you." On this basis, Western theologians have always seen death as a punishment from God.
Man was created to be in communion with God, just like a fish is created to live in the water. Just as when the fish is taken out of the water, when man is separated from God, we die. When Adam went against the commandments of God, he - using his free will - wilfully separated himself from God, and for this reason became subject to death.
When a parent says to a child "don't touch the stove, or you'll get burned," that does not mean "if you touch the stove, I will burn you." In the same way, God was giving Adam a loving warning, not a threat.
Because the Latins, following Augustine, have always viewed death as a punishment from God, the purpose of redemption has always been to for God to "lift the curse." And so they see salvation purely in terms of Christ dying to appease an angry God, facilitating His forgiveness of us.
Orthodox theologians, on the other hand, have always been of the opinion that Christ became a man - taking into Himself a complete human nature - so as to heal us. He died, since He was fully man, but because He was also fully God, death could not hold Him - and so He broke its binding power, opening the way to resurrection for all of us.
The same thing goes for heaven and hell. Latins view hell as a punishment. Protestants in particular hold the view that, we all deserve punishment and so that is man's 'default position' so to speak. If we believe, our debt has been paid, and we can go to heaven.
They justify such a legal concept of salvation on the concept of God's "justice." However, St. Isaac the Syrian says that "Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright, His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. 'He is good,' He says, 'to the evil and impious.'"
If a man has lived his whole life in light, a brighter light will give him further illumination. If a man has lived his entire life in darkness, a bright light will scortch his eyes and be torment. Heaven and hell works the same way, so the Fathers teach.
So it is wrong to suggest that hell is a punishment from God because He is angry with our sins. As Saint Isaac the Syrian says: "He who applies pedagogical punishments in order to give health, is punishing with love, but he who is looking for vengeance, is devoid of love. God punishes with love, not defending Himself — far be it — but He wants to heal His image, and He does not keep His wrath for long. This way of love is the way of uprightness, and it does not change with passion to a defense. A man who is just and wise is like God because he never chastises a man in revenge for wickedness, but only in order to correct him or that others be afraid" (Homily 73).
I will admit I've done a very poor job of explaining this - finding it hard to put it into words - and so I recommend you click on the link below, which answers this question much better than my incoherent babbling:
http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm
Please pray for me, a sinner, that God saves me from the fire.
Sorry, I know this isn't what this convo is about, and I know this response is delayed...but I just have to say this. I can prove to you God exists...unfortunately, it doesn't involve any finger snapping, but it is in a way that is undeniable. We shall use everybody's favourite topic to prove God...physics ;D. We shall focus on Newton's laws of motion, and more specifically, Newton's first law.
Newton's first law is that "An object in motion stays in motion (at a constant speed in the same direction) and an object at rest stays at rest unless acted upon by an external force".
Now, everything in the universe is an object (the planets, stars, space junk, asteroids etc...). These objects are in motion (the earth revolves around the sun etc...). Now science has proven that there was some form of starting point for our world (unless you care to argue that the earth/sun, stars have always existed and have always been moving). This means that at some point, these objects in our universe were at rest.
According to Newton an object at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an external force. Our universe is not at rest, therefore it had to be acted upon by an external force. Now we have a name for the outside force that set our universe in motion...we call Him God.
Newton's laws of motion are undeniable, scientific facts. There you go, God's existence has been proven. God bless.
if you want to read about Gods judgement i guess you should start by reading Romans
oh and yeah hell exists!
Kristina123