hi guys, today at the beach a man came up to my friends and me and handed us a million dollar bill. on it was printed a question: If you were to die today, would you be in heaven or hell? i admired the young man's zeal, as he was my age and was able to do things that i am not able to do, namely preach to anyone, anytime. The man began talking about how the baptism is only a sign of obedience and not necessary as a physical emersion in water. i disagreed and told him that it was in fact a physical baptism that is needed. He replied, "so how did the thief on the right hand of Jesus go to heaven? did God tell him you have to be baptized in the Jordan first?" i was not able to answer him. He also mentioned that when children are baptized they are unaware of the commitment they make, therefore, one must be "born again" in spirit, as the first, physical baptism is void. I know this is wrong, but i dont know how to disprove it. Ironically, i had just finished reading the commentary of chapter 14 of the Gospel of St. Mark; in it, the disciples ask Jesus where he will eat the passover and he sends St. Peter and St. John to search for the young man with the pitcher of water (st. Mark.) The commentary said that the water that St. Mark was carrying is symbolic of the baptism. and so Christ meant to say that wherever the baptism is, i will be there also, as when the baptism cleanses us, Christ, through communion, dwells within us. Even, knowing this, i could not properly defend my faith. I ask for your assistance in finding proof against this man's claims.
Comments
He replied, "so how did the thief on the right hand of Jesus go to heaven? did God tell him you have to be baptized in the Jordan first?" i was not able to answer him.
well on the cross, the right hand theif bled to death and in a way that was baptism. you can put it that way and also you have to consider the fact that he was granted paradise from the Savior Himself. don't forget that Christ Himself didn't baptisy His deciples in the litarate meaning of baptism. well he's right in one part, the part about born in spirit. when we are born as children, we don't know anything, that's the reality BUT who is resposible of us, our parents or in an adult case, and "eshben" (a person who leads an unbeleiver into the faith to be a believer). but when our parents are in charge, they choose the right path for us till we are old enough to take the one we really need.
physical baptism will never be void because Jesus Christ HIMSELF was baptised to show us the way. in physical baptism you liturly die with Christ and rise as a clean person. so you are than cleansed of every bad thing. than you are born of the spirit when you are anointed with the holy oil (as in the orthodox churchs).
well you don't really have to worry much, you're not the first or the last person to hear from or to meet people like that who they really think that the bible is theres not God's and that they can understanded it in there on way which they think is right and will also fool others into the wrong path that they started.
as a side note, i am unclear as to the full meaning of the baptism of spirit. I would love it if someone helped me out.
well, regarding the first point, i told him that the thief's death on the cross and his acceptance of his fate and Christ's deity was enough. But that still doesn't answer the question of why the thief didn't need to be baptized. Jesus told the thief he would be in heaven but without the baptism, thus in this case it would seem as if physical baptism is unecessary for salvation. Also, I believe (not certain) that Christ did not baptize his disciples because The Lord's baptism was that of fire and spirit, but the baptism of water was the task of John the Baptist. This also raises a few questions. Since the Lord's Baptism was of Spirit, where is the justification for the necessity of the baptism of water, since it was only a preparation, a call to repentance, before the coming of the Messiah? And also, If it is necessary, why was the baptism of water not given the same priority as the baptism of Fire and Spirit? I forgot to mention to the man the fact that Jesus himself was baptized, but that was only to fulfill prophecy. with that in mind, how can one prove it is necessary?
as a side note, i am unclear as to the full meaning of the baptism of spirit. I would love it if someone helped me out.
well lets read:
Mt 3:11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
The baptism of John was for respentence and cleansing of the body (according to the jowish tradation) but the baptism of Christ would cleanse us, purify us, make the Holy Spirit come upon us. and your right this baptism was a prepration to the Massiah's coming to us and dwelling up on us. that's why we believe in one baptism which is one time prepraiton for reaciving Christ in our hearts.
like i said, in a way the blood of the metyrs is the way of baptism.
when Christ was baptized in the Jordan, it wasn't only to fillful the prophecy, but to prepare for us the way. he Himself said that no one will enter heaven with out the baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
like i said, in a way the blood of the metyrs is the way of baptism.
I understood the first part, thank you, i hadn't looked at it from that angle before, but i don't get how the blood of the martyrs is a baptism. Also, how does this apply to the case of the thief, as he was not a martyr. He was granted entrance into the kingdom without the baptism of water but was he baptized in spirit when he accepted Christ? If so, does that mean that the baptism of fire and spirit is superior to that of the water? Since they are both needed, is that even possible?
sorry for making things so difficult, but i truly wish to understand this. ;D
and here: http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/1_baptism.htm
EE,
In similar situations it may be better not to debate. I do not allow those persons (usually Jehowah Witnesses or clones of) to bombard me with questions which always target at specific topics thinking they would shake our assurances and our faith, but I ask them to answer one question: do you doubt the Lord's righteousness? Then explain why Jesus insisted to be baptized while not needing that in the first place. Is it void because He did not need baptism?
Did He really need Disciples and Apostles? Do you believe in Sacraments? What is a Sacrament? What are the Sacraments you know of? How does the Lord convey His Sacraments to us? Is everything written in the Bible?
They use parts of verses rarely in context with the actual subject of the chapter. What they practically try to do is turn the Lord's words against both Him and you. May the Lord forgive them.
If they tell you the cross is not the way you see it but there is no top part, or no horizontal parts for the arms (and may be there were no nails!), ask them to write down an X and tell them they wrote it wrong. They are sometimes so brainwashed they go easily into confusion. If you want to help them, be very careful.
We baptize children because it is first the Lord's then Apostolic teaching, another one is Psalm 51:
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me...
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Mathew 11
10 For this is he of whom it is written: ‘ Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.’ 11 “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mathew 3
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Mark 1
7 And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” 9 It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. 11 Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
This is the proof that in order to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, every one must be baptized first with water to prepare the way before the Lord.
When the Father says: "This is My beloved Son," He VERY CLEARLY and STRONGLY notifies all the witnesses that in fact Jesus Christ DID NOT NEED TO BE BAPTIZED (even His Manhood, being the Son of God) but that the Sacrament of Baptism (water and then Spirit: Sacrament of Confirmation, Mayroun) was thus initiated. Water not as just a sign of earthly cleaning and repentance with the sanctification of the Holy Spirit, by dipping: death with Christ then rebirth, and the Holy Spirit transforming body and soul.
Sacraments taught by the Lord and the Apostles have physical seen step(s) or rite, and the action of the Holy Spirit. We are both body and soul, that is our nature and both have to be sanctified by the Lord's graces.
John 1
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ 31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.” 32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”
John 4
1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee.
Would Jesus Christ let His disciples waste their time and baptize others if it was not necesssary?
On the cross, the Merciful Lamb of God accepted the repentance of the dying thief and promised him salvation because He is Love. HH Pope Shenouda explained that since baptism is dying with the Lord in this case the thief had the best possible baptism.
Mathew 28
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Did the Lord specify an age or a race or a tongue for making disciples, baptizing and teaching "all nations"? Notice also that in these verses the Lord said "teaching to observe all things" after "baptizing".
from Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
Etymology entry found for baptize:
Middle English, from Anglo-French baptiser, from Late Latin baptizare, from Greek baptizein: to dip
(in water)
To apply the Lord's command "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" three physical dips have to be made.
As for baptizing children (and for all sacraments) the Lord explicitly commanded in Mark 10:
13 Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the Kingdom of God. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.” 16 And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them. These children could not fully understand the laying of hands and blessing of the Lord (only their parents or presenters could) would He bless them if it were for no purpose? Would people who worry so much and doubt it make too of this a meaningless-useless blessing because children do not know some or all details?
Is the case of baptizing a dying child obsolete (is it "void")? what about the mentally retarded? the paralytic? Please ask this fellow how he thinks the children will have the Holy Spirit if they are not baptized.
NB. I admire the zeal too, but I personnally know it is in fact a bad thing to spread wrong information to others and to christians even while thinking it is the right thing to do, spreading less and correct info is better.
In the act of baptism we are emmersed in water and taken out again to be burried with the Lord and be risen once again. This is what happened with the thief on the right. He died with the Lord and was burried and on that day he was with the Lord in Paradise. If that's not baptism, I don't know what is.