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Pope apologies...why should he?
I read and heard his comment on the prophet of Islam [AS] and the faith.
Like many other observers, I smelt crises because his comments were left to alot of other interpretations.
I felt he was in support of the14th century emperor and his position on Islam.
So fellows, whats it?
Mercy and blessing of God.
Like many other observers, I smelt crises because his comments were left to alot of other interpretations.
I felt he was in support of the14th century emperor and his position on Islam.
So fellows, whats it?
Mercy and blessing of God.
Comments
There is a difference between slander and criticism. Slander is irrational, intentionally false, and emotionally charged; criticism on the other hand is based on genuine and honest scrutiny and examination. If you call my dad a murderer, that may, in its very nature, be offensive to me, but I cannot call it slander if the accusation is made upon the basis of the accuser's honest interpretation of a set of facts, rather than the accuser's mere hatred of my father.
I also find it ironic that in the two latest incidents where Muslims have been offended by the characterisation of their religion as being violent, that they have in turn reacted with violence. The latest I heard regarding the incident relevant to the Pope, he has been issued with a death threat.
Secondly, you made comment about Muslims reacting to violence with violence. You are right, however its only a small number of muslims who have actually protested when you consider how many muslims there are in the world. Also, the Muslim world is riddled with problems (economic, social, political) and so they are almost prone to irrational responses when things happen, but i dont think their response is directly related to the actual comments. For example, have you seen Muslims in the UAE, Brunei, or Bahrain protesting the comments? I think not. Rather protests have taken place in Palestine, Egypt, Pakistan - countries where people are already unhappy with a hundred and one problems. Im not saying that makes the protests right, but you do have to cut them a bit of slack.
Lastly, Im just going to post some websites that have the response from Baba Shenouda.
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7004887802
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214167,00.html
His Holiness has been the first Christian leader to condemn the comments, and i think it has been a wise move to do so.
Rabana maak,
Matt
As a public figure, it may have been imprudent of the Pope of Rome to make the remarks that he did, but disrespectful? I find no reason to believe so. For your information, and to emphasise the hypocricy within the Islamic world, what you pose as a hypothetical was in fact a reality. The institution of Al-Azhar did in actual fact publicly condemn the history of the Roman Catholic Church, the Crusades specifically; it even went further to demand that the Roman Catholic Church apologise. At least the Pope of Rome didn't ask Muslims to apologise for the mass-slaughter of Christians committed in the name of Muhammed and for the cause of Islam all over the world. Wise? Yes. It's a politically shrewd move. Whether we are to draw anything regarding His Holinesses personal convictions regarding the matter is another question.
A lot of people muslims and non put up arguements agianst the over reaction to the cartoon row with citations from the scriptures.
This is ok and very intructional...like the two posts by Igal and Matt 88.
I feel the Pope ought to have addedpart of the explainations he gave with his apology.
You are right Iqbal, but at the end of the day every religion must respect other religions. As we have been taught, we must "treat others how we would like to be treated." Therefore its not appropriate for Pope Benedict to criticise Muslims etc, and Muslims should not criticise Christianity in any way. The same should go for every Hindu, Jew, Buddhist, Bahai etc. Furthermore, if we are criticised we should "turn the other cheek." Accordingly, it wasnt right for Pope Benedict to make the comments he did. What would his response have been if Sheikh Tantawi from Al Ahzar had condemned certain historical features of the Roman Catholic church? Surely Pope Benedict would have made clear his displeasure.
Secondly, you made comment about Muslims reacting to violence with violence. You are right, however its only a small number of muslims who have actually protested when you consider how many muslims there are in the world. Also, the Muslim world is riddled with problems (economic, social, political) and so they are almost prone to irrational responses when things happen, but i dont think their response is directly related to the actual comments. For example, have you seen Muslims in the UAE, Brunei, or Bahrain protesting the comments? I think not. Rather protests have taken place in Palestine, Egypt, Pakistan - countries where people are already unhappy with a hundred and one problems. Im not saying that makes the protests right, but you do have to cut them a bit of slack.
Lastly, Im just going to post some websites that have the response from Baba Shenouda.
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7004887802
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214167,00.html
His Holiness has been the first Christian leader to condemn the comments, and i think it has been a wise move to do so.
Rabana maak,
Matt
matt,
i wonder if u r living in egypt? cuz if u were i am sure u won't say that!! and if u lived in egypt before! where it during the yrs of where ur mind understatnds everything???? ( 13-...)
in my opnion!
the pope should have never apologized! cuz that is how the muslims are! they use weapons! kidnap gurls and rape them and make them convert to islam so they would osstor ardohom ( marry them for raping), they bomb churchs, kill christians, run over little kids as they go and come from church, go inside churchs and slaughter ppl, slaughter ppl in their own homes, harras christians women/gurls as they walk in the street, be rude to christians in the everyday life including the work force, and they have their rgts in the arab countries especialy egypt more than the christians do!!
umm......... yeah,... the islam religion does use weapons alot!!!
that is not fair, and that is how they ( muslims) are! murders! yes their is a chance that some might be christians! but untill then THEY HATE US!!
i didn't say i hate them too, but i don't like them! and i know god said love your enemies as your self! and not all muslims are bad!! i know couple muslims at school/college that are v. nice! and well manered!!
umm......... yeah,... the islam religion does use weapons alot!!!
so... the pope should HAVE NOT aplogized! cuz that is how the muslims are and the man did NOT lie!!
pope shnoda is v. wise man! his wiseness comes from god!
u can correct me if am wrong abt my reply!
pray for me
bentBABAyasooa`
Respect is due to the muslim man. No respect is due to the muslim religion...the pope was right about them. But hes too weak to pick a fight with them.
GBWU!
bentBABAyasooa`
and i heard they want our pope to apologise for something he hasn't said!!!!! i'm afraid they might be raising 'a wave of hate' in egypt on the copts who said nothing i can't even call that a fault it could be called..what? arabs prejudice?!
have u heard about the nun which was killed in austria with 4 shots in the back? and they said they burned like 2 churches i think? any details?
no i didn't hear abt that!!
but i heard about the last incident in Alexandria!
the church el kedesean! in sedi beisher!!
my cousines saw the whole thing!!
and they called the man "mentaly RETARTED" yeah......... rgt
excuse my language... " mentally retarted my *%#*"
cuz realy think abt it, if he was "M.D." he should kill any-body walking in the street, not go in a specific place and kill specific ppl!! he went in a church, and killed christians!! and he did that in 3 churchs! and they call him " MENTALY RETARTED!!" yeah....right!!
and during the funeral of that man who died in sedi beshier! the muslims threw rocks on the christians so they would stop it ( the funeral)!!!
grrr.......... they make me soo mad!
i don't understand why god is quite about it, i am sure he sees them and knows!! i am sure they have a day! i am sure god can erease them from the univeres!! but god only knows when is their day gonna come!!!
pray for me
bentBABAyasooa`
wow........
no i didn't hear abt that!!
but i heard about the last incident in Alexandria!
the church el kedesean! in sedi beisher!!
my cousines saw the whole thing!!
and they called the man "mentaly RETARTED" yeah......... rgt
excuse my language... " mentally retarted my *%#*"
cuz realy think abt it, if he was "M.D." he should kill any-body walking in the street, not go in a specific place and kill specific ppl!! he went in a church, and killed christians!! and he did that in 3 churchs! and they call him " MENTALY RETARTED!!" yeah....right!!
and during the funeral of that man who died in sedi beshier! the muslims threw rocks on the christians so they would stop it ( the funeral)!!!
grrr.......... they make me soo mad!
i don't understand why god is quite about it, i am sure he sees them and knows!! i am sure they have a day! i am sure god can erease them from the univeres!! but god only knows when is their day gonna come!!!
pray for me
bentBABAyasooa`
i kno EXACTLY what u mean my cousins were there and their kids and my aunt in that church and they make me SOO MADDD TOOOOO !!!!!!
Iraq Al Qaeda vows holy war
Sep. 19, 2006. 01:00 AM
VATICAN CITY—Al Qaeda in Iraq has vowed war on "worshippers of the cross" over Pope Benedict's comments on Islam, as Western churchmen and statesmen tried to calm passions.
Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei called the remarks by the man who leads the world's 1.1 billion Roman Catholics "the latest chain of the crusade against Islam started by America's (George W.) Bush."
The Pope on Sunday said he was sorry Muslims had been offended by a medieval comment on holy war he cited a week ago in Bavaria but did not retract his speech, seen as portraying Islam as a faith tainted by violence.
"We tell the worshipper of the cross (the Pope) that you and the West will be defeated, as is the case in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya," said a Web statement by Mujahideen Shura Council, an umbrella group led by Iraq's branch of Al Qaeda.
"We shall break the cross and spill the wine," said the posting Sunday on a site militants use.
About 150 Iraqis yesterday burned a white effigy of Benedict XVI. "No to aggression!" and "We gagged the Pope!" were among slogans chanted outside the governor's office in Basra, a Shiite city.
In Kuwait, Muslim clerics said his Sunday address "does not amount to an apology because he said Muslims had misunderstood his speech. He ... must pledge not to repeat such false accusations against Islam."
Guards were posted at some Egyptian churches and Pope Shenouda III, head of the Orthodox Coptic Church, disassociated his Christian sect from Benedict's statements.
Turkey's government, while calling his remarks "ugly," said there were no plans to call off Benedict's visit in November, his first to a Muslim country.
Citing freedom of speech, the European Commission called for his remarks not to be "deliberately taken out of context." REUTERS, ASSOCIATED PRESS
H.H. Pope Shenouda never talks about his opinion in islamic history and theology, and it would be stupid to do so, but H.H. is definitely clear about his rejection to the theological basis of Islam. In an interview with Emad EL-Deen Adeeb, the Orbit famous host, H.H. welcomed an interfaith dialogue with muslims as long as it touches on common efforts for peace but refused any theological discussions. No common basis or reference H.H. said and and ocean in difference.
I find it fitting that our dear brothers, the muslims, have resorted to violence in their efforts to fight their violent image. It works though, for apparently no one now can voice his opinion if the leader of 1.2 billion people cannot or is intimidated. One thing that should be respected about them: Solidarity ..... for the wrong case and maybe pushed by their ignorance that makes them move like cattle, but it works ....
Revelation 9 ......
I admire H.H Shenouda's wisdom in denouncing and distancing His Church and Himself from Pope Benedict's speach.
God bless my Coptic Church.
XX
pope Bendict did NOT lie about the muslims!
this is how they are! and they will need a miracle to change!! :o
bentBABAyasooa`
Coptic Pope Shenouda III said in published remarks that he didn't hear Benedict's exact words but that "any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ."
--------------------
So, my point is this: its a good thing the muslim do not see us as part of the Catholic Church. I tend to agree with His Holiness: Do not offend anyone nor their faith. What your personal beliefs are about someone's religion should remain personal.
http://www.sis.gov.eg/En/EgyptOnline/Miscellaneous/000002/0207000000000000001272.htm
Also, at the same time, read carefully what H.H has said, yet keep in mind that the Pontiff was in America in 2001 in a delegation to counter religious intolerance within Egypt.
Add the two together, and you'll see why H.H Pope Shenouda had to denounce the statements.
God bless you all,
Do you think islam really offers tolerance and mercy???? anyways pope shenouda is a very wise man
god bless him!
there was this one time that an anchor person asked his H.H. pope shenoda " where do u think el shararawi went? heaven or hell???"
so ofcourse pope shenoda can NOT say "HELL", and can NOT say "HEAVEN"
so he said " ofcourse he went where his beloved MOHAMAD is at"
with that answer, he convinced the christians that he is in HELL, and at the same time the muslims think he is in "HEAVEN"!
hahahahhahahahhaa.........
hahahhaa............. isn't that funny?? ;)
i still laugh abt it everytime i remember it!! :D
H.H. pope shenoda is v.v.v.v. wise!
may his blessings be with all amen!!!
bentBABAyasooa`
think about it, if el baba said anything he is condemning all the christians in the arab countries to death
cos they will kill him and if they killed all christians of course some will not be brave and will convert to islam and others ahhh you know the history will repeat it's actions pray for all christians
I find it fitting that our dear brothers, the muslims, have resorted to violence in their efforts to fight their violent image.
I'm not exactly sure I interpreted what you are saying correctly, but if I did, WHAt are you talking about????
Of course it is NOT fitting that they resorted to violence!!! If a Muslim, or anyone made a comment about Christianity or Christians, which they constantly do make, do you think that the Christians would have responded the same way they did, by killing innocent people?!?!?!?
I think that the Pope was wise in apologizing for the Muslims getting offended. I think that he had to do that for the safety of Christians in Egypt and the Middle East. But I do not think it should have been said:
"The Pope hoped that Pope Benedict's statements would not undermine the distinguished ties between Islam and Christianity.
Egyptian Christians look highly on Islamic civilization and its contributions to human heritage, said Pope Shenouda III, adding that Islam is a religion of tolerance and mercy. "
as one of the articles states.
What ties exactly are there between Christians and Muslims? That the Muslim prophet copied the ideas of Christians and Jews that he met through trade and put them into his book? Or, that Muslims killed many Christians and forced many others to convert to Islam against their will?
And, How is Islam a religion of tolerance if they can't tolerate the remark made?
Do not worry, I am far from being sympathetic with the history of Islam or with any aspect of their religion, and those who know me well know that I can pretty well back up my information against Islam with valid resources that muslim consider their primary resources. I will be very glad if we can have a good discussion about Islam, but in coptic forums they are dominated by non-arabic speaking Copts who have no access to primary resources about Islam and have to rely on secondary resources. This is why I do not feel encouraged to engage in such discussions, and therefore I usually resort to irony and sarcasm.
There are exceptions, but generally, the history of Islam as how it started and how it developed and its major characteristics is not understood by the West, among them the Copts outside Egypt.
I did not understand the Bishop of Rome's statement as an apology. He regrets that the muslims are offended, yet I do not think he retracted or offered a different view nor should it be understood in that way.
H.H. Pope Shenouda never talks about his opinion in islamic history and theology, and it would be stupid to do so, but H.H. is definitely clear about his rejection to the theological basis of Islam. In an interview with Emad EL-Deen Adeeb, the Orbit famous host, H.H. welcomed an interfaith dialogue with muslims as long as it touches on common efforts for peace but refused any theological discussions. No common basis or reference H.H. said and and ocean in difference.
I find it fitting that our dear brothers, the muslims, have resorted to violence in their efforts to fight their violent image. It works though, for apparently no one now can voice his opinion if the leader of 1.2 billion people cannot or is intimidated. One thing that should be respected about them: Solidarity ..... for the wrong case and maybe pushed by their ignorance that makes them move like cattle, but it works ....
Revelation 9 ......
[quote author=Stavro link=board=11;threadid=4417;start=0#msg61039 date=1158722089]
I was sarcastic and pointing to the irony of killing a nun in protest of being labeled violent, and being violent to deny the nature of violence. It is like having sex for virginity, or waging war to advocate an image of peace.
Do not worry, I am far from being sympathetic with the history of Islam or with any aspect of their religion, and those who know me well know that I can pretty well back up my information against Islam with valid resources that muslim consider their primary resources. I will be very glad if we can have a good discussion about Islam, but in coptic forums they are dominated by non-arabic speaking Copts who have no access to primary resources about Islam and have to rely on secondary resources. This is why I do not feel encouraged to engage in such discussions, and therefore I usually resort to irony and sarcasm.
There are exceptions, but generally, the history of Islam as how it started and how it developed and its major characteristics is not understood by the West, among them the Copts outside Egypt.
i was about to say there........ mr. stavro!!
they are in pain wether mental or physical it's so annoying we just have to watch what happens every minute
There are exceptions, but generally, the history of Islam as how it started and how it developed and its major characteristics is not understood by the West, among them the Copts outside Egypt.
What do you mean? I know that you said you didn't want to get into such a discussion, but isn't Islam the same thing in Egypt as it is taught in the West? What's so different about its true origins than what we know?
Oh, and Stavro, I apologize for misunderstanding what you said.
Islam that is portrayed in the West has nothing to do with the Islam that has been developed, practiced and spread throughout the World since the 7th century. Every now and then the true face of Islam shows up in a terrorist attack or in a fatwa that is dogmatically sound from the point of view of Islam and comes usually from the Middle East or from immigrants sheikhs in the West. Islam is a cruel, unhuman, satanic and quite racist religion as taught and practiced by muslaim for the past 14 centuries. The "West Islam" is different, abusing the ignorance of arabic language in the West.
To be able to study Islam further and know its roots and how it developed politically and dogmatically, there has to be a deep research into the arabic books that go way back to the 8th, 9th and 10th century and that muslims consider their primary resources. Simply, to be able to understand Islam you must have access to these books, which means that you must be able to understand arabic and equaly important, one has to be able to research without any bias. Because Islam is very unhuman in its teaching and not acceptable at any level for an Orthodox who cannot find any point of agreement with it, the western culture (corrupt also) that embraces the group hug mentality usually interferes with good reason if it exists to begin with. Culture is more powerful than reason.
It is not easy to discern a very important fact about Islam that it started as a "universal" christian heresy, and that Muhamed has married Khadiga in a "christian marriage" and was his connection to Waraqa and Quess Ibn Saada and other christian heretics. This puts Islam in a new light, for the discrepancy between the Makka and Madina Quran verses will be clear and makes sense and befitting for a religion that started as a heresy and ended up as an political movement. To be able to establish a good connection between Islam as a heresy and early doctrines of heresies Like Ibonites and Arianism, you must know these heresies first and their sources and you must understand arabic and read the islamic books that are authentic and be able to establish the reliability of some of the stories and doctrines as being taught by Muhamed, the child rapist.
It is my experience such discussions wih Western Copts and other groups are infertile because every word is contested by the non-arabic speaking person from the West, who lacks the knowledge of the language and who cannot get over the group hug mentality.
In addition, and it does not apply to any member on this forum, ignorance is a major factor in making such discussions stupid. On another coptic forum, a moderator came with the idea that Muhamed is a good man and a man of God, and another moderator verified that(on his own account, no references) and proclaimed that Orthodox Christianity actually embraces Islam because it is an inclusive religion that sees that God works through heresies, wrong doctrines and other crap like that, that is crap for anybody who knows his faith and is not puffed up like those guys.
When ignorance reaches such levels, do we really have to talk about Islam or is it better to understand our own faith first ?
I understand that many of us left Egypt with bitterness, and probably many of your families did that, but targeting Islam should be a second priority after understanding our faith first.
What faith was he born into then?
Kafir