Nisavev Tiro

Unknown

Hi.

I was just listening to some beautiful coptic music (Nisavev Tiro actually!) from this website.

Im just curious, why is it in our Church we don't have other musical instruments other than the symbols and the triangle?? Is it because we only use percussion instruments? In that case, why not the drums or tambourine (arent these what Moses' sister used to praise God when He freed the Israelites from the Egyptians??

THanks for your answers,

I can imagine some Coptic girl writing back and saying:

Vassilios,

THere's no point to that question, our Church will not change, and don't try and make it change. Asking why we don't play other musical instruments is judgemental. If you bothered to read my article on this subject in the tasbeha.org archives, you'll see that anyone asking such questions is a heretic!!

Please just, if you can without passing any judgement on me, criticising me, nor condemning me, just answer the question??

Many thanks!!

God bless you all,

Your brother in Christ,
Vassilios

Marianne87

hmm...i wonder who that girl would be ::)
Anyway I deleted my post from ur other question..Lesson Learned vassiolios.

Unknown

[quote author=vassilios link=board=11;threadid=4443;start=0#msg61274 date=1159296155]
Hi.

I was just listening to some beautiful coptic music (Nisavev Tiro actually!) from this website.

Im just curious, why is it in our Church we don't have other musical instruments other than the symbols and the triangle?? Is it because we only use percussion instruments? In that case, why not the drums or tambourine (arent these what Moses' sister used to praise God when He freed the Israelites from the Egyptians??

THanks for your answers,


Hi,

The following is from a Greek Orthodox (couldn't find a Coptic one) article on modernism in America:

"The introduction of the organ takes place in imitation of the Roman Catholics and Protestants, and constitutes an innovation which the Holy Fathers explicitly prohibited and which is contrary to the ordinances of the first Christians. Attentive study of the New Testament absolutely convinces us that the Apostolic Church did not use musical instruments. The Fathers, faithful guardians and unfailing interpreters of Tradition, explicitly excluded the use of musical instruments in the execution of ecclesiastical hymns, and also the accompaniment of hymnody with instruments, as incompatible with the sober, hieratic, spiritual character of the Christian religion......As for the fact that musical instruments were used in worship in the time of the Old Testament, this is explained as a concession from God by
reason of the Jews' "grossness of mind" and their inability to change from their ancient customs (cf. St. John Chrysostom On Psalm 150; PG 55:497-498). The use of musical instruments in Christian worship is excluded, because the preaching of the New Testament places Christians in a more favorable position, and there is consequently the demand that in every respect they become more spiritual than the people of the Old Testament. Consistent with the example and the spirit of the God-man and the Apostles, the Orthodox never used musical instruments in their churches until the middle of the last century."

Due to Western influence, the organ is now also commonly used in the Syriac and the Armenian Church.

According to http://sor.cua.edu/Music/index.html, a Syriac site:

"Traditionally, the use of musical instruments is avoided in liturgical services. In 1930, at the Synod presided by late Patriarch Elias III at Dayro d-Mor Mattay, the use of an organ was permitted."

So also in this Church, the use of musical instruments is a rather recent innovation that was previously discouraged.

As for your second question about percussion. Drums are an integral part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Liturgy. I know the Greek Orthodox Churches in sub-Saharan Africa also use drums during worship.

I suppose the Coptic use of symbals rather than drums is purely related to Egyptian culture.

blingblingzz327

[quote author=vassilios link=board=11;threadid=4443;start=0#msg61274 date=1159296155]
Hi.

I was just listening to some beautiful coptic music (Nisavev Tiro actually!) from this website.

Im just curious, why is it in our Church we don't have other musical instruments other than the symbols and the triangle?? Is it because we only use percussion instruments? In that case, why not the drums or tambourine (arent these what Moses' sister used to praise God when He freed the Israelites from the Egyptians??

THanks for your answers,

I can imagine some Coptic girl writing back and saying:

Vassilios,

THere's no point to that question, our Church will not change, and don't try and make it change. Asking why we don't play other musical instruments is judgemental. If you bothered to read my article on this subject in the tasbeha.org archives, you'll see that anyone asking such questions is a heretic!!

Please just, if you can without passing any judgement on me, criticising me, nor condemning me, just answer the question??

Many thanks!!

God bless you all,

Your brother in Christ,
Vassilios


since u added the thing about the girl...i have nothing to say other than that lol jk :P

Unknown

[quote author=vassilios link=board=11;threadid=4443;start=0#msg61283 date=1159306049]
Orthodox11,
Many many many thanks for this response. Its truly interesting, and makes a lot of sense.

It makes sense with respect to explaining the logic of our Church leaders....

So, we are sure that the apostles didnt use musical instruments, and that is why we don't use them either?
Perhaps a silly question, but what if they did have them?


If they did, then the Holy Fathers of the Church were all wrong. So better to assume they didn't ;)

And what about King David in his Pslam 150:
Praise the Lord with the cymbols, organ, harp... etc... let every breathing instrument praise the name of the Lord. ??

The article explains this, stating:
"As for the fact that musical instruments were used in worship in the time of the Old Testament, this is explained as a concession from God by reason of the Jews' "grossness of mind" and their inability to change from their ancient customs (cf. St. John Chrysostom On Psalm 150; PG 55:497-498)."

The blessed Prophet and King David lived within the context of the Old Testament, and his words must be understood in that light.

Just as animal sacrifice was permitted, even commanded, under Mosaic Law it is not a part of New Testament worship.

Many churches record now Coptic hymns with violins and organs... is that bad then?

I think one must be careful in how strictly one interprets these things. We are not the Taliban.

Whilst musical instruments might not be appropriate in the context of the Liturgy, it might well be acceptable in other context, such as recordings of hymns that people might listen to at home.

To further quote the Syriac article:

While the nominal use of an instrument enhances the spiritual experience, excessive use detracts from it, especially when it discourages the participation of the congregation.

I would agree with that statement.

I see the point clearly though. You state that its incompatible with our "way" of orthodoxy praying (sober etc...)..

I find the hymns in our Church extremely joyful, and very profound, and if a rock could hear the music it would sing with us. For sure!!! Im not talking nor suggesting at all using musical instruments, but who is to say that the drums cannot replace the cymbols? I play the cymbols and the way of playing them is known as "Tabla wa noss" - I.e. the same way we play the drum, we actually use the same technique to play the cymbols. Is it that strict that we cannot use other instruments of percussion??

No one has said drums cannot replace cymbals. Like I said, it is an integral part of the worship of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which was part of the Coptic Church until Pope Cyril VI made it a self-governing Patriarchate.

However, cymbals have always been part of Egyptian worship, drums haven't; and so Egyptians use cymbals instead of drums. There's nothing more to it than that.

But your last phrase:
" The use of musical instruments in Christian worship is excluded, because the preaching of the New Testament places Christians in a more favorable position, and there is consequently the demand that in every respect they become more spiritual than the people of the Old Testament."

This statement doesnt make sense to me. Because we have the new testament, it means we don't need musical instruments ??? I understand what its saying, but the logic doesnt sink in my head.

I guess then if i follow that same logic, i can conclude that since we are in the era of the new testament, we don't need to even sing praises because we are already advanced enough spiritually.

I think the Fathers' main problem with instruments was their association with secular music, etc. But I'm not sure.

You'll have to ask someone who knows more about the development of liturgical music.

mmatt95

I dont know much about the development of liturgical music. All i have been thaught is that we, as "spiritually mature" in the New Testament use our voices as an acceptable offering to praise God with.
What is the point in using musical instruments anyway?! It would probably just cause people to get distracted. I'm seriously wondering what the point is in letting an instrument make sounds, while the body of Christ on the altar. The praise should come from us, personally. I think thats the tradition and spirit of worship we have received as an orthodox church.

But yah, in a meeting or when ur just singing some songs together (or when doing recordings) using musical instruments isnt a big deal, but inside a liturgy the focus should be 200% on God.

The only reason we use cymbals is for the beat by the way, so that all can chant with one speed. Cymbals do not give a recognizable melody of a hymn.