Guys, we desperately need a new topic. Ya3ni, otherwise we'll end up with questions like :should i order a deep pan or thin crust pizza? Some guy also wanted to know whether he should cross the street or not...
I have a good topic, and something that's on my mind lately:
Why doesnt the Coptic Orthodox Church involve itself in politics? If, for example, Egypt decided that it will call itself "the islamic republic of Egypt", the Church having a voice in politics would object. But it doesnt. Its so quiete in the country. Is that wise?? The catholics are , on the other hand, TOO much involved in politics. Every new legislation that comes out that has anything to do with homosexuality, or abortion, the Church's views will be stated.
Also, when we elect our leaders (in countries where leaders can be elected i.e. ANY COUNTRY OUTSIDE EGYPT!!), then is selecting a candidate based on his religious affiliations a wise choice?? For example: Bush had no inihibitions at all at proclaiming and showing his Christian faith; but looking back, all we knew about him was that he was a Christian. Now, President Chavez thinks Bush is in fact Satan! And frankly speaking, i couldnt agree more.
Who do we vote for?? We want someone Christian, but not stupid. Bush being Christian did no one any good. I think it was just marketing to the US public as they're all quite religious.
Also, the Coptic language: is it necessary to pray this until now. I mean, no one really understands it. I have to read the English/French or Arabic to understand it, and if we pray without any understanding, then are we not like parrots?? isnt that fanatism itself!!?
If we accept that arabic is our official language then we lose our identity. But that's a lame excuse: We've already lost our identity to an Islamic one!! Would you not agree?!!
Comments
You have to understand the difference in both politics and "class" of Rome and Cairo. To be fair, I have to admit that the italians are much more advanced socially than the muslims.. seeing as how every little comment opposing muslims will end up in violent clashes and rivers of blood.
The Pope of Alexandria is aware of this and he does his best to maintain peace in the country (and the globe). By opposing islam in a densely and barbaric islamic community would result in chaos.. and the loss of innocent lives. On the other hand.. the Pope knows how to defend his church in a polite and respectful manner.. releasing himself from all the political crap and doing the best for his church.. pray.
The Pope Of Rome has nothing to fear.. the vatican and vatican city protect him. He could make any comment he wants to both against the government and different religions, resulting in small sacrifices (compared to the coptic pope whose whole church is situated in the middle east).
In the end, it really does depend on both the money, position, and "class" of the surroundings... our pope cannot openly defy islam, which the pope of rome can.. it is because of the different sitations mind you.
Let's say that Egypt tomorrow calls itself the "Islamic Republic of Egypt " (to please the muslim brotherhood etc) (and in all seriousness, it looks like its getting to be that way since i was last there!!); then the copts will object and say :"Hey, that doesnt apply to us, we have our own language, our own identity, our own culture". So, we should in fact learn Coptic. Its our language!
The way i see it is this: We should learn Coptic, it IS our language; but it would be easier to learn greek as there are more cassettes available. I'd suggest to learn greek first simply because there's a good handful of Coptic Orthodox Songs in Greek! We should use arabic LESS!
People should know that the arabic language is something imposed on us, not something we chose for ourselves!!
The way i see it is this: We should learn Coptic, it IS our language; but it would be easier to learn greek as there are more cassettes available. I'd suggest to learn greek first simply because there's a good handful of Coptic Orthodox Songs in Greek! We should use arabic LESS!
I'm not sure that makes a whole lot of sense. You wish to preserve your Coptic cultural heritage by adopting the Greek language ???
Yes, there are many hymns sung in Greek - the Trisagion, O Monogenis, etc. - and one always says "Kyrie Eleison" and "Doxa Patri, kai Yio, kai Agion Pneumati" etc.
But the Greek language, because it is the language of the Bible, many of the Church Fathers, etc. is part of the Christian heritage in general - its not part of the Coptic heritage specifically.
Any language cassettes available would be in modern Greek, which is completely different from the ancient Greek of the Bible, the Creed, the Fathers and hymnography.
Why not get someone to make Coptic language tapes?
So, i'd suggest Greek. Im 10000% sure that if i learnt Coptic and spoke it fluently than NOT ONE SINGLE PRIEST (PRIEST!) in my Church would understand me. So, who shall i speak it with if i were to learn it???
It just looks good to have on a CV that u can speak Coptic.. bass so what?? Im sad the Coptic language is no longer in use. I really am. Its really not worth learning this language if its not in use. Its a shame. If the Pope ordered that we all learn Coptic, then great, but learning it all alone just to speak with myself would be pointless.
Yes, because Greek is the closest language to the Coptic Language.
Is it?
Other than using the Greek alphabet (adding a few letters), I can't really see many similarities between the two languages. And you think Abouna would understand you if you came up to him and said "Kalimera, eise kala?" ???
So if you learnt Greek, who would you speak it with other than Greeks? Ancient Greek is no longer in use. Its a dead language, just like Coptic. The only place you'd hear it is during the Divine Liturgy in Greek Orthodox Churches, that's it.
So I'm still not able to see how learning Greek will protect Coptic culture and identity.
Regarding politics, "Absolute power, corrupts absolutey" in my opinion.
How does learning greek help u preserve the Coptic Culture? It doesnt. Its just its the closest thing to what we have (yes : the greek alphabet + 2 additional letters) is closer. If we learnt Coptic, who would we speak it with??
And yes, my father of confession in France does speak Greek! ;) [Yeah.... my priest in France is really an amazing individual]
But, given that a good portion of the Church songs are in Greek, and that greek is closer to our identity than Arabic, i'm learning Greek. (plus, Greek girls are really nice, and I studied with Greeks at University)
But you havent answered my question why should i learn Coptic if no one else speaks it?? I'd love to if it was still spoken; but the Copts prefer praying in Arabic in the mass rather than Coptic. There are a few deacons in our Church that insist in praying in Coptic, but they don't understand a WORD of what they're singing.... i know, i asked them.
Regards,
Learning greek is in use. Greeks are everywhere, and ancient greek is the equivalent of ancient english or french, u can still understand it, but its not in colloquial use.
Ancient Greek is not the equivilant of old English or French. It is not understandable to those who speak modern Greek. A language changes a lot over 2000 years. Same alphabet is hardly enough to say a language is close to another. Hebrew (although the letters look different) uses almost exactly the same alphabet as Greek (a, b, g, d, etc.) yet its an entirely different language.
The Cyrillic (Russian) alphabet is almost identical to the Greek one, except a few letters here and there. Should Copts start speaking Russian? You just said "we" - if there are several people who all learn Coptic, you could speak with eachother.
And even if you were the only one to learn it, you would still be able to understand the Liturgy, etc. Even more hymns are in Coptic, Coptic is your identity (not just close to it), why not learn Coptic?
Are you also suggesting that Egyptians should learn Greek because you studied with them at university ??? :P I believe your original post said Copts in general, not just you, should learn Greek. That, to me, makes no sense. What does make sense is for Copts (not just you on your own) to learn Coptic, which is their language.
If many Copts learn Coptic, there will be others who speak it. I'd love to if it was still spoken; but the Copts prefer praying in Arabic in the mass rather than Coptic. There are a few deacons in our Church that insist in praying in Coptic, but they don't understand a WORD of what they're singing.... i know, i asked them. Copts prefer Arabic because they haven't learned Coptic!
Teach them Coptic!
Please bear in mind that i may have only 70 years or so of life left to live...
Ya 7abibi Ya ostaz , ya Mistur Orthodox, ya3ni, which is better bin-nizbalak: We pray in Arabic because that's what most Coptic people speak, or we teach everyone Coptic? Which is more feasible??
You're the one who said less Arabic should be used - and that Greek should replace it.
So I think you're the one that should be asking yourself this question (substituting Coptic with Greek) :P I didn't suggest you teach them all.
This is frustrating. I cant speak or learn a new language if im the only person who will speak it! I mean, that's not practical.
OK. can u speak Coptic??
And even if u could speak Coptic, what's the chance that u and i will ever have a conversation in Coptic???
I mean... Ouufff!! this is frustrating...
What do u want from me.. Im a simple Coptic guy that found himself in a Coptic Church... easy 3alaya!!!
No one i know speaks Coptic. Why should I?
Look my dear Friend,
This is frustrating. I cant speak or learn a new language if im the only person who will speak it! I mean, that's not practical.
Indeed, this is frustrating.
You say Copts should all cut down on Arabic as a way of resisting Islamic influence and start speaking Greek because its easier to learn than Coptic.
When I say that makes no sense and everyone might as well learn Coptic, you start saying that it would be pointless for you (singular) to learn a language that no one else speaks - thus moving the whole context of the discussion from Copts in general, to you particularly. And then you say that Copts might as well stick to Arabic since they understand it.
So, again, a totally non-sensical argument on your part. To make sense, is that too much to ask ??? :( :P
Arent u?? Why am i not making sense?
Here's a summary to help u:
a) I think that we should not lose our Coptic Language
B) But no one hardly speaks it or really understands it fluently in the Church.
c) I suggest that we learn Greek because at least there are some songs in our Church that are in Greek, and that this is a language that we can use in our CHurch and is practical because other people speak it and its closer to the Coptic Lnaguage THAN ARABIC!
d) Greek girls are gorgeous!
e) Ouuff!!
Man... NO one speaks Coptic in my Church, and u want me to teach myself and then others the coptic language??? That's soo unpractical...
Oh! And by the way, i showed the Church hymns in greek to my greek friends and they understood it, so they do understand ancient greek!!
Ouuufff
You are AROUBA! Mr Orthodox. Absolutely To7fa!
Arent u??
This discussion is making me arouba! The only way to stop that is by teaching people Coptic. There is no other way of doing anything about that. Which would be the whole point of teaching it to people. Other people speak modern Greek, the Greek used in Church is ancient Greek and would not be of any use in a conversation with a Greek person. They're also really LOUD. Would drive you crazy if you married one :P I never suggested you teach others. My friend, I have attended a Greek Orthodox parish for over two years now. The Liturgy is done entirely in ancient Greek, and the Greek speakers in the congregation (that's about 70%) cannot understand what is being said - just bits here and there.
An example: I was at this theology class yesterday, and they handed out Greek NTs to everyone. One side had the original ancient Greek, the other side had a translation into modern Greek. The two were completely different.
When you compare the KJV to modern English, there are just small differences like "you" instead of "thee", etc. Ancient compared to modern Greek is totally different.
Its still Greek, of course, but very very different.
What i'm saying is, yes, its good to know Coptic because many of our hymns are in Coptic, so we can understand it and participate, however, the language does not consititute our faith. Language is a means of communication. If no one speaks that language, then learning it to communicate is not practical, and in fact makes the language redundant.
Its a sad case. I love Coptic songs. I do! But, Our Church should give us the orthodox faith in the language where we live;and that means we should not even bare any allegience to arabic. Ya3ni... u don't even know what arouba means. Wallahai, i don't even know what it means, but they always tell me that when I was a kid playing around.
SO, what good is even arabic for us if we live in the west. Our songs, our liturgy etc, shouldnt be based on a language. For example, the tasbeha should be sung in any language, not necessarily coptic nor arabic. The problem though is that the tasbeha was written for the Coptic Language, and the songs FIT that language. Singing it in French or English doesnt fit. So, we should have our Orthodox songs made FOR a particular language that are PART of that mass and part of the orthodox faith (ya3ni , they have to be OK'd by the Church)? That too me is logic.
I'm thinking out aloud a bit, but i lose soo much spiritual nutrition because my arabic is poor, and my Coptic is VERY poor, that if abouna decides to pray in either, i'm so lost!!!
If your answer then is to "learn Coptic" so i wont be lost; then my response is: sometimes the mass is in Arabic, so now i have to learn arabic?? I don't speak arabic that well either!? If anyone has noticed, the mass was originally all in Coptic. You agree? Then when Islam came to Egypt, Egyptians began to speak Arabic. Now we have our own "OFFICIAL" songs int he Coptic Church that are in arabic. So, my point is this. When will we have our own "OFFICIAL" songs that are part of the French language, or the English Language.
In fact, English and French (heck and Italian too) are occidetental languages. Arabic is oriental. So, the Arabic language is based on a musical scale known as the QUARTER TONE. The Coptic language is oriental, and the musical scale is QUARTER TONE too. Therefore, as what the church has done with the influx of arabic into the Church, it should do with the influx of English and French into the Church: Give us songs that befit the musical scale AND the language!!
When we say "Coptic Orthodox". does our faith rely on a language?
It has always been the practice of the Church to use the language of the people. So the only reasons for keeping Coptic would be 1. to preserve cultural (not religious) identity AND 2. the meaning of hymns, etc. might be lost in translation and so knowing Coptic gives a better understanding.
But there's no other reason to keep Coptic.
Why not??
For example - Before the bible, we sing Agios O Theos. Non? But that's greek. Why not have something similar but in French? Actually, i love Agios O Theos.. its a superb prayer; but im just using this as an example.
Anba Angelos has already gone down that road, but he's stopped at the point of using western hymns in the Coptic Church (even though they respect the Coptic Theology), from being part of the Coptic Mass. Otherwise, we've all learnt protestant songs because that's what they use in the prayer groups. 100% protestant songs. Now, these songs that they use are from the Protestant church (all of Saint mark's church - london) go to HTB ( a protestant church in downtown london), and have made a song book containing all the songs they like. Of course they've only selected those that respect or do not compromise our Orthodox Theology; but these are western songs.
Yeah, OK matey, but then why arent we allowed to bring in English/French songs in the Church? Not songs translated from arabic/coptic to French or English, but actual hymns written in French that are based on the occidental music scale. Why not? I mean, they can be part of the mass??
Why not??
You don't just "bring in" stuff to the Church. Whilst the liturgical life of the Church is not static, it is one of organic growth and not impulsive reform.
Music scales do not necessarily complement and correspond to any particular language. Italian and German are both western languages, yet they have a totally different sound.
I don't think the introduction of Western music is necessary to introduce a Western language.
Moreover, what we normally categorise as Occidental music now - baroque, romantic, classical, etc - is only representative of the last 300-400 years of Western music.
When you listen to the older Western music, it is often closer to Eastern music than to what we normally class as Western. The Trisagion is not merely a Greek hymn, but a hymn that was taught to us by Angels. Its an integral part of Orthodoxy.
But there is no reason why it can't be sung in French. When I attend Liturgy here in English I hear "Holy God, Holy Mighty..etc." when I attend Liturgy in the Syrian Church I hear "Kudus al Illah...etc." I believe the British Orthodox Church has been active in doing this.
Personally, I don't agree with it. A hymn is not just nice words, but something that eminates from the life and faith of the Church. Sacred hymnography cannot come from those outside the Church.
Therefore, I think its wrong to adopt Protestant hymns, even if they are Orthodox in their theology.
If they can find records of prayers, hymns, etc. that were used in Britain while it was still Orthodox, then I would have no problem with using those.
The questions you have asked are perhaps the most debated amongst today's youth. Let's deal with the more pressing question first:
Like Iqbal said, the language has no social value, therefore learning the ancient Greek language because it's more widely accepted is not particularly useful. What Coptic is: a language that has been integrated into the lives of Copts because of the conditions of the time, these were:
* most people were illiterate (they could speak but not write)
* the dominant scholarly language of the time was Greek
Because Coptic scholars wanted to spread Christianity without having to teach people a new totally language, they devised a language that was spoken in the then current Egyptian language and written in Greek. To solve the problem of having some pronunciations with no equivalent in the Greek alphabet, they devised another 8 letter to make the Coptic alphabet.
Since then, many original biblical (and heretic) texts were translated into Coptic (such as the Dead Sea scrolls). The mass, hymns and other elements of today's church tradition were originally devised in Coptic; hence to preserve the use of Coptic in the church is to preserve the completeness of our Coptic heritage.
A point on other, non-traditional Christian songs, and musical instruments: His Holiness Pope Shenouda has said that these songs are fine to sing in youth meetings, church gatherings, etc (we even sing some during communion, which is a bit controversial ;)). However, what we must not do is mix these with in traditional prayers and praises (i.e. Masses, tasbeha and the other sacraments).
About Politics:
When His Grace Bishop Mousa was asked about the reason for the involvement of the church in politics, he said that it was trying to fill a vacuum, to take responsibility. The Pope said unity in Copt's politics is influential.
Personally, I believe that the Church should continue to support Christian legislation and oppose non Christian legislation, and to encourage Christians to vote for [glow=red,2,300]anyone[/glow] who stands up for morals and Christine values. What I dislike is when they tell Christians [glow=red,2,300]WHO[/glow] to vote for. The reason I don't support it is that it defeats the whole aspect of 'make up your own mind' that's associated with democratic elections. We as Christians should be conscience enough to vote for such people, but for the Church to impose such opinions on us, is against our free will, which God has granted us. "Wise as serpents" is how we should approach the whole issue; having said that, the church hasn't really imposed such conditions on us, so I'm not complaining. We had representatives from Christian and non Christian (not affiliated with any religion) come and share their views with us in church. Campaigning to us is fine, but we have the final say on who to vote for, not the Church!
On the comment about President Bush, I diagree! I don't particularly want to sit here and argue the case for him or for people who hold rigid moral standings, or for the war, because this isn't a political forum.
Peace,
His son
i speak arabic fluently and english fluently...i know a tiny bit of french and coptic......how many more languages do we have to learn..?...i think if we are in america the liturgy should be at least mostly in english (most of the time its in arabic or coptic) which doesnt really bother me, but i know a lot of people that are raised here and do not understand any of the arabic, the majority of egyptians living in america (unless they r taita or gido 2% of the population) speak english, so it is only common sense that it should be the main language in the odas. especially kids and teenagers here that do not know arabic leave the odas during the sermon and go walk out because its in arabic....
God is God is God is God in all the langauges of the earth, what language we praise God in should not make a difference
"Jesus loves all the praises;
all the praises of the world.
English, coptic, arabic, french,
any language it should be;
jesus loves all the praises of the world" (http://susie1114.com/LittleChildren.html)
whatever should not matter. it is not like if we speak "coptic" and preserve it we are becoming any more closer to God, i think not
plus the fact that no one teaches coptic in my church, where are we supposed to learn it from. And even if u can read it or memorize hymns u dont know what each word means, maybe a few. it is not a spoken language anymore no one has a conversation with anyone in coptic so i dont see the point
I wish to be clear on a few points:
1) When you translate Coptic to ANY langage , you use the capacity of the translated langage to translate the meaning of the source langage; but its never exact. The coptic bible is the 2nd most accurate translation in the world (from what i was told). But even Arabic, translated from a coptic source, is not accurate . For example, a small part of the Coptic Creed in Arabic is incorrect, yet it's more precise translated in english. Yes INCORRECT:
We say: "who is worshipped and glorified" in English, but in Arabic its: "WE worship and glorify Him". Now that's wrong; because its our doctrine , and the pronoun WE in Coptic is not used, and it should not be used. Yes, we start by saying: "we believe in one God", but that's the start of our belief., but when we start to talk about God's nature , the 'WE' should not come into it.
So my first argument is that our faith should not depend on a language
- neither songs nor hymns.
2) The musical scale of Arabic/Coptic is the Quarter tone. All the songs that are sang in Arabic or Coptic that have been translated to French or English DO NOT WORK! It works in coptic/arabic because it was made for that language.Therefore we ought to have songs written for the mass, vespers, marriages etc that are made for the language of that country IN the musical scale suited also. French/English songs do not work on middle eastern scales.
Look at this , for example , and you can try this at home,: We all know Agios Otheos. .Try singing it in Arabic or French, or even English .
A lot of the kids in the coptic church are attending the protestant mass, and that's because they can pray with the music and words. Nothing is lost in translation.
If we do not adapt to the language of the diaspora, we are at risk of losing our youth.
Also, its a sign of respect for the language and people of that country . Its an important element in integrating into that country.
ALL MOSQUES outside Saudi Arabia, Egypt etc recite the Koran in Arabic. No other language is used. The translation exists for personal use, but not for prayer. And we wonder why muslims do not integrate into western societies!?
WE ARE NOT MUSLIMS AND SHOULD HAVE NO DEPENDENCIES ON THE ARABIC LANGUAGE OUTSIDE OF EGYPT . COPTIC IS OUR TRANSLATION SOURCE. PERIOD.
i think that most of our teachings within the Church should be conducted in English or the language of the country in which you reside. this is extremely important in order to allow the people to understand more about their faith.
as for Coptic i beleive it is also important to know a little as after all it is our history. but it should not be given priority. so i guess i agree with Iqbal.
as for Vassillios and his greek well you are free to learn whichever language you like. i suggest that you take some time to reorder your thoughts in order that you do not contradict yourself over and over. it also seems to me that your argument is based on circular reasoning which is not only confusing to the reader but also weakens any point you may have had!
Kristina123
The coptic bible is the 2nd most accurate translation in the world (from what i was told). But even Arabic, translated from a coptic source, is not accurate .
Why would one translate the Bible using a secondary source rather than the original Koine Greek? If you're refering to the Nicene Creed, it was written in Greek not Coptic. As such, Coptic pronouns are not of any relevance to the accuracy of the Arabic version. Also is not a Coptic Creed, but a universal one.
If you were refering to a different Creed, then I apologise. You seem to be ignoring the fact that the Oriental Orthodox Church is comprised of 6 local churches (of which the Coptic Church is only one), which use a number of different musical scales, languages, etc.
So clearly, the faith is not limited to any language or musical scale.
But I do agree with what you're saying about using the local language, etc.
No, the bloke that told me that the Coptic was the 2nd most accurate translation was a die-hard copt. OK O K OK .... we know, u belong to the greek orthodox church.. well lucky u.. (hahaha YA AROUBA!!)
All this time, i was thinking u were Coptic!!!
Anyhow, to answer Kristina123:
If you or anyone sensed some confusion in my thought process, well i'll be a monkey's uncle, because its true!!!
Let's not forget that this is a discussion, and i wasnt suggesting anything at first, merely talking about the problems in our Church as a simple way to avoid talking about whether or not we should cross the road at the traffic lights. It seemed to me the better of two evils.
So, at the beginning of this discussion, i was proCoptic language in our Church. But after thinking about it more, it seems clear that we shouldnt be attached to any language to express our Orthodox faith. And at the same time we should have songs written in the language where the diaspora reside in the musical scale that best suits that language. So, let's keep this in the spirit of open discussion and ask why is it the mass in the diaspora has no songs written for it in the language where the diaspora reside?? Why are we still singing in Coptic when its not our language? It was the language of pre-islamic Egypt. YES! I agree.. but that's the language of the country, not of our faith. You see my point?? A lot of people are scared to lose the Coptic language; and i understand that; and it makes me sad; but if we become attached to our COptic language because we say 'Its the language of the first Egyptians' , then we, ourselves, are not allowing Copts to integrate in Egypt? Are we not therefore causing a divide in the community there back in Egypt??
Orthodox, u seem to be more Coptic than me, and i love Greek girls, and you cant stand them. We should change or do something??
If anyone here is still confused, then send me a private message... i think the argument is straight forward.
Hey Orthodox11:
No, the bloke that told me that the Coptic was the 2nd most accurate translation was a die-hard copt.
It probably is the 2nd most accurate translation there is. But why translate the Arabic from a translation rather than the original?
The Coptic might be the second most accurate translation, but the Greek is the original. Greek isn't a particularly nice language imho (Latin is much nicer), but that's the language of the original, and so any translation, for the sake of accuracy, should be translated from the Greek and not a translation. What's that got to do with anything I said? There is a signed agreement between the Greek and Coptic Popes of Alexandria, which says each Church recognises the marriage sermonies of the others as valid.
So if you like Greek girls so much, there's nothing stopping you from marrying one ;)
ORTHODOX! I LOVE YOU!!!!