On the outside....no...we don't...on the inside though...when you go on the inside of this society....go under this society's skin...and you find the same...there is this HUGE sexual frustration in the Egyptian society...just look at the harrasment that any ordinary girl gets on the road...I meant...at least outside Egypt...the sexually oriented or active is "proud" to be so....he/she is known...the conservative is plainly so....in other words...those who love your Lord Jesus and his Church can be so easily (like those great guys from Amsterdam on this post)...and vice-versa is also there...not so in Egypt
You guys are in a free society....so you have to be freee to choose what u want and what u don't...and if u feel that pornography on the street is offensive (I personally REALLY FEEL SO) then it is ur right to protest....I am with you personally all the way...
You guysare in a free society....so you have to be freee to choose what u want and what u don't
i think not, if only life were as you say. I do agree that the treatment of women in Egypt is pittiful but its important to realise that this is happening all around the world to some certain degree.
i havent read all the posts, but i agree with everything here,,, i guess i have nothing to add, but you guys are talking porn PORN?!?!? cuz i live in las vegasseen a single billboard or anything with porn PORN on it, sure there are plenty with ppl wearing barely enough , but not pron.
haii guys.. earlier in the topic there was an email that was going to be sent to Bishop Angaelos.. what exactly is he supposed to do about it ??? Please reply..
Good point Hizz_Chiilld This brings me to my main point: I understand where you're coming from Vas and I support it but i doubt anything can be done. Legally speaking, i hope i am correct about this, if these images are in a public place there is little you can do to control them. The fact remains that other people are not disgusted by it and in fact desire it. In a public place, it is considered freedom of expression. In terms of children being exposed, that is where i believe we could get something to happen, because they do not have the maturity to be responsible about it.
I don't think pornography is bad because they have half-naked women(or even men), or perhaps completely nude women or men. As a medical student, I see nudity all the time. The bad thing with pornography is viewing the subject as an object- in effect degrading the subject. I mean, do you think by looking at my patient I am looking at pornography? I don't think so. The problem is the heart or the way you view the subject. I guess the problem with pornography is that it is posed in a sensual way that almost the natural response is one of lust. That is what I have a problem with, its not the nudity, but the pose and degradation of the subject.
[quote author=Doubting Thomas link=topic=4615.msg73181#msg73181 date=1182691941] I don't think pornography is bad because they have half-naked women(or even men), or perhaps completely nude women or men. As a medical student, I see nudity all the time. The bad thing with pornography is viewing the subject as an object- in effect degrading the subject. I mean, do you think by looking at my patient I am looking at pornography? I don't think so. The problem is the heart or the way you view the subject. I guess the problem with pornography is that it is posed in a sensual way that almost the natural response is one of lust. That is what I have a problem with, its not the nudity, but the pose and degradation of the subject.
hmmmmmm.... the meaning of Pornography is: 1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement 2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement 3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction <the pornography of violence>
We are made in God's image, our body is the temple of the Lord - would you use a temple for lewd purposes? God is Our Father; would you perform acts of lewdness in front of your father?
God gave us love and passion for mutual comfort and for the procreation of the species, so let us not misuse what we have been given. Every human being should be treated with dignity and honour - pornography is the negation of all this. It is the visual and mental equivalent of sewerage - and who would choose to spent part of their day wading in that for pleasure?
I have know people whose lives have been ruined by addiction to pornography. Once men get the idea that women are objects for their lust, they can find it difficult to form relationships with real women. I would earnestly say to anyone out there who looks at pornography, think about what you are doing. Those women are someone's daughter or someone's sister - would you want someone to look at your sister in that way? Of course not - so don't do it yourself. The argument that you have no real influence on this evil trade is wrong; if you, and other men, did not buy it, it would not exist.
It violates those it portrays - and those who read or watch it; he who touches pitch is defiled thereby. I know some people think it does no harm; they are, I fear, wrong - it does a great deal - not least to those who use it.
I have to say this issue is terribly arising visually in many places across the U.S. as well. Although you don't see it on billboards often (the most I've ever seen was a beer advertisement with a half-naked woman... not saying that's bad but I'm positive there's worse)... I'm really afraid for our youth... As I grow into a servant, I learn more and more about our youth. The more I learn the more I get scared, and its because of all of these advertisements free in your face. I will never forget, one time I was in the street and I heard this (rap) song which had horrible lyrics of what a man was describing about a woman. And I do not listen to rap at ALL, I wonder would I hear if I did. These things change in our youth and children a lot, more than we think. I am sorry but I disagree 110% with that pyschologist, whatever we see gets caught the visual camera of our brain and stored for a very long time, even if you see it against your will. The more I learn about these youth I really wonder if they will ever come back, back to the Church which gave them life. We have to face it; America has become terribly sexual, whether it be hetero or homo. This is advertised everywhere, even in cartoon shows (for one example, spongebob had a gay couple in it)... I could go on forever, and so can you guys... I have to say it sounds much, much worse in Europe (at least where I live)... Having said that, here's my name and email... Marrian Sedrak [email protected]
Earlier on in this thread there was a discussions about whether law could ban it. Well, in the US and the UK the answer will always be no; and even in Muslim countries, where it is banned, pornography is available, so the efficacy of a ban may be doubted.
Like all areas of our life, our faith has the answer. It calls for us to refrain from addictive and destructive activities and to pray for help. Whatever psychiatrists say about the effects of pornography, it degrades the women in it and the men who read it; yes, I know there are other types of pornography, but it is true of them too, and the overwhelming type is that meant for heterosexual men. So it really is down to each man to stay away from the stuff - just as you would from drugs.
As you say, it is all the more difficult given the advertising industry and the the popular music industry; how very awful that people make money from degrading their fellow human beings. All we can do as Christians is to keep away from the sort of 'music' you describe; would anyone in their right sense really wish to live that sort of life-style? As for advertising, well, we have a choice of what we buy; if people stopped buying from firms that used images of women in a provocative way, they'd stop doing it.
It is down to us. Those of us in the west live in a society where we have great 'freedom' - but there are very great temptations attached to that; it is our calling as followers of Christ to show our love for Him by resisting such temptations.
But, dearest to Christ Marrian, do not be fearful; the Lord Jesus Christ loves you, and He will strengthen you and protect you. As a Christian, you have a great shield against the enemy - as we all have; let us use it, and, confessing His name, do nothing that brings shame on us, or the Church. May He strengthen you in all goodness.
In terms of what action to take, such as the petition to +Angaelos, you will find there are already laws in the UK about cards in telephone boxes (they are illegal, and those placing them can be prosecuted) and that pornographic magazines can only be sold in specially designated shops from which children are banned; there are so called 'soft porn' magazines which can be sold in newsagents, but which have to be on the top shelves and have their front covers censored; so in terms of what you and Vassilios were proposing, you will find there are already laws.
That is my point really. There are plenty of laws, but unless the heart of man changes, unless the market for this stuff goes away, no amount of law can stop it. There are, I gather, very severe penalties in places like Saudi Arabia for possessing this sort of thing; it is still available there.
Until we all realise that it degrades everyone involved in its production, then it will continue. If we wish to protect children from it, then laws already exist to do that. No, the answer lies not in more laws, but in a change of life by us - as ever, the Christian way has the answer and is THE way.
Well, I still think that many 'legitimate' ads being broadcasted that contain revealing pictures designed for sensual desires, and children are not protected by such things. I know that many teenagers have access to pornography on the internet due to relaxed and uninforced internet regulations.
So I think that more stringent laws is needed. The access is easy, and parents fail to be able to protect. The whole world seems to be talking about sex and paints the picture that pornography is normal part of a man's life.
In Australia, I have seen billboards of naked women with leaves or their hand covering private parts. Then there is countless radio ads and even television ads about sexual performance.
It is the summation effect that I think that as teens, we are being barricaded by thoughts of sex. As I want to be free of lust, I find all these quite ridiculous. I have realized my weakness. May the Son make me free.
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=4615.msg73305#msg73305 date=1182846608] That is my point really. There are plenty of laws, but unless the heart of man changes, unless the market for this stuff goes away, no amount of law can stop it. There are, I gather, very severe penalties in places like Saudi Arabia for possessing this sort of thing; it is still available there.
Until we all realise that it degrades everyone involved in its production, then it will continue. If we wish to protect children from it, then laws already exist to do that. No, the answer lies not in more laws, but in a change of life by us - as ever, the Christian way has the answer and is THE way.
ive been pondering on this for quite abit....
and THUS i agree with Monsieur John you accidentally type something wrong in ur google search and BANG there appears porn...then u have sex stores.....then there's tv..... ppl think and complain... this is terrible..its corrupting our children etc etc....this is reality....such temptation and sin will be ever present.... wat can we do?: 1)start with ourselves....if we have kids...bring them up with christian values and morals and emphasise the negative impact this type of media ia having.... 2)key term ...TURN AWAY... 3) continusoly write letters to local politicians and council bodies 4) encourage priests or bishops to advocate the churchs views to known politicans 5) you need to speak to a french lawyer or one from europe if u want legal assistance
the change you are seeking is SOCIAL and STRUCTURAL change...this takes time and much lobbying....
its not that im not ani-porn but that instead of complaining about it...we need to deal with it... find methods of coping with such societal pressure
and its not against our "ethics"...its against will and values.....
its jus like lust in a sense but much more extreme....if u see through ur neighbours window and see them showering every day....u cud a) sit n watch or b) walk away and make note and implement measures to prevent u from looking........this person has every right to shower, u cant stop them
same with media, they want money and attention.....they need it to thrive and gain ratings....and dont forget most media compaines r owned by sleazy men....how often do u see on the news a young good looking reporter with sum old fart......it wat catches the eye
and if u can make a small difference by discussing ur concern than that seed will grow and one day make a big difference... even change the outlook of a young persons life is awesome progress
What can you do in France? Not a lot I suspect, because the French have been more 'relaxed' about this than the British.
Certainly try to persuade the bishop to talk to members of the French parliament, but, as you can see in the UK, even when you get laws, they are not very effective.
Remember, in the 1920s the USA banned the sale of alcohol - giving a huge boost to the mafia and organised crime who went into the business of providing what people want. If legislators ban something for which there is a market, then the market goes underground. There are very sever laws in the UK against the evil of child pornography - and every year the police catch more people doing it.
I really do think Kerestina is correct; you have to start with yourself and those you know; cut off the market for the stuff and it will not be produced.
A great example to look up too is Sam3an el kharaz. The one who poked his eye out with his sewing needle because there was a lady that just pulled her dress up to take off her shoe.
I am not saying poke your eyes out, I am saying if you see something wrong... pretend it is not there... don't turn your head back around and stare at it againe!!!!
If you live in France/England/where ever.... You have came in contact with a new tradition/culture/morals/everything and really it is up to you whether you want to adopt that tradition or not.... If you do NOT wish to adopt it then either move back to egypt or stop complaning.... If you live next door with a woman/man that are not friends with clothes and love to go out naked all the time.... If you have god in your heart then you won't sin... and if you teach that to your children and have GOd in their hearts they won't sin..... I live in U.S and there is a new world around me.... Doesn't matter if i am a citizen or not.... I choose to follow my culture/religion/tradition. I see people making out, I see people smoking objects, I see gay guys, that is their culture they are used to that.... I don't care what's around me.... It won't enfluence me not even one bit... It is like it is not even there!!!
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=4615.msg73332#msg73332 date=1182862379] I have no problem with her being naked. I do have a problem with her being naked in public.
SHE IS NOT YOUR WIFE, SHE IS NOT YOUR SISTER, SHE IS NOT YOUR MOTHER!! DON"T WORRY ABOUT IT!!!! IF she wants to do that, that is her life choice. She sees what she is doing is normal because she grew up in that society.
[quote author=bentBABAyasooa` link=topic=4615.msg73333#msg73333 date=1182862721] [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=4615.msg73332#msg73332 date=1182862379] I have no problem with her being naked. I do have a problem with her being naked in public.
SHE IS NOT YOUR WIFE, SHE IS NOT YOUR SISTER, SHE IS NOT YOUR MOTHER!! DON"T WORRY ABOUT IT!!!! IF she wants to do that, that is her life choice. She sees what she is doing is normal because she grew up in that society.
Mira, Why are u shouting at me for?? She's someone who's naked and in my face; and I hardly know her name (as you correctly pointed out).
Are u saying we should get to know her more??
I personally don't think we need to go further in our relationship. I feel i already know her well enough. I just think that there should be laws that make her keep her clothes on and not force me to look at her IN PUBLIC - against my own will.
this thread just goes round and round....porn is bad...yes we all know....bad porn...slap slap slap.....did u onli jus wake up recently and realised porn existed?? uve been living 20 odd years...how have u managed to not become corrupt?? and appreacite ppl for who they r and not sex objects.....
Dear all, I have come to read this thread just very recently, I hope it is not too late. Honestly, I couldn't read all the opinions posted but one thing stopped me "psychologist". I was interested to see what the psychologist said, as I see that many people disagreed. Yet, as I am studying psychiatry myself, I do agree with what the clinical psychologist told Vassilios (about nine months ago). Children are defined those young eight years or younger (that is in psychology at least). Some people say 12 or younger, but that tends to be rather more generally medical. Anyway, believe it or not, if an 8-year old is exposed to such pictures, or scenes, WITHOUT INTENTION, they won't take it as grown-ups do. They will certainly not understand what every bit of detail means. So, if their parents discuss the matter with them telling them what is right from wrong, they would keep away from these things (if they are good enough). Trust me, children of this age won't go about seeking those pictures, or scenes in that little age at all. On the contrary, we don't come to realise "psychologically" the difference between a boy and a girl until we are about 10 - 12 years of age. This is puberty, and it has many reasons mentally as well as physiologically. I hope I am clear. God bless you and mention me in your prayers
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=4615.msg73336#msg73336 date=1182865071] this thread just goes round and round....porn is bad...yes we all know....bad porn...slap slap slap.....did u onli jus wake up recently and realised porn existed?? uve been living 20 odd years...how have u managed to not become corrupt?? and appreacite ppl for who they r and not sex objects.....
Actually, porn has been around for ages... but you WILL NOT understand unless you come to Paris. Its now in your face... EVERYWHERE.
Before it was just sexy publicity. Now its hardcore, in your face, IN A METRO STATION!?
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=4615.msg73337#msg73337 date=1182865203] Dear all, I have come to read this thread just very recently, I hope it is not too late. Honestly, I couldn't read all the opinions posted but one thing stopped me "psychologist". I was interested to see what the psychologist said, as I see that many people disagreed. Yet, as I am studying psychiatry myself, I do agree with what the clinical psychologist told Vassilios (about nine months ago). Children are defined those young eight years or younger (that is in psychology at least). Some people say 12 or younger, but that tends to be rather more generally medical. Anyway, believe it or not, if an 8-year old is exposed to such pictures, or scenes, WITHOUT INTENTION, they won't take it as grown-ups do. They will certainly not understand what every bit of detail means. So, if their parents discuss the matter with them telling them what is right from wrong, they would keep away from these things (if they are good enough). Trust me, children of this age won't go about seeking those pictures, or scenes in that little age at all. On the contrary, we don't come to realise "psychologically" the difference between a boy and a girl until we are about 10 - 12 years of age. This is puberty, and it has many reasons mentally as well as physiologically. I hope I am clear. God bless you and mention me in your prayers
So, this is a different problem. Im passed puberty and it upsets me that people force these things upon us. Its not fair. They have no right.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=4615.msg73337#msg73337 date=1182865203] Dear all, I have come to read this thread just very recently, I hope it is not too late. Honestly, I couldn't read all the opinions posted but one thing stopped me "psychologist". I was interested to see what the psychologist said, as I see that many people disagreed. Yet, as I am studying psychiatry myself, I do agree with what the clinical psychologist told Vassilios (about nine months ago). Children are defined those young eight years or younger (that is in psychology at least). Some people say 12 or younger, but that tends to be rather more generally medical. Anyway, believe it or not, if an 8-year old is exposed to such pictures, or scenes, WITHOUT INTENTION, they won't take it as grown-ups do. They will certainly not understand what every bit of detail means. So, if their parents discuss the matter with them telling them what is right from wrong, they would keep away from these things (if they are good enough). Trust me, children of this age won't go about seeking those pictures, or scenes in that little age at all. On the contrary, we don't come to realise "psychologically" the difference between a boy and a girl until we are about 10 - 12 years of age. This is puberty, and it has many reasons mentally as well as physiologically. I hope I am clear. God bless you and mention me in your prayers
how is that possible though?? how can a child view pornography and not be affected??? they must form some negative or degrading perception of women??
Dear kerestina, Well, I am aware that some naughty children go on and seek viewing sexual material, be it pictures, or movies, or whatever. I wasn't talking about these. I was talking about those children who accidentally view these things, or who hear about it in school from peers. The latter are not at a great risk of going on to develop a bad habit of being addicted to pornography, or even perceive a woman in a degraded unhuman way. Because the extent to which this will affect them is not immense anyway. That is why I think the psychologist was right in what she said to vassilios long ago. I hope I am clear in what I said. Dear vassilios, I understand your problem. I live in England, so I understand a bit of the picture, not wholly though, as you are the one who lives there. It is sad; but what is the solution? Unfortunately, even scientifically being homosexual is not considered as a disorder anymore, unlike before. European churches don't see it wrong for homosexual marriages, and think that the Bible is outdated now. I think that is as you said sending the wrong message of "pornography is only part of our life". I think it is even worse in France, where I believe (and you have to correct me in this), they have the principle of accustoming the young to sex and sensual desires to prevent crimes related to seeking a woman (like rape, and murder), but look what they have actually succeeded in? Bringing up a generation of child abusers, sex offenders, ... etc. This is just one of the huge number of evil trying to spread their teaching in the world. End of days? I believe yes. God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
DeArEst Opal lol, i think i understand what your saying that....children who accidentally see it wont look into it further....BUT i think there must be sumfin that enters the mind?? of course they dont know they are seeing porn....but that negative image must have some affect....yani next time they see their mum go into a bra store or sumfin...the image wud be pushed bak into the unconscious i think and brought up wen they understand....
People have the right to express themselves. If in expressing themselves they diminish in anyway the quality of life of those around them, then it should be a crime.
This can be applied to ANYTHING: loud music - I shouldnt have to be exposed to someone's music, porn in public places, certain offensive publicity in public places. There has to be the creation of an idependent government body made of various interest and religious groups that can condone what is to be published, heard, viewed in public.
That's the answer. Period.
Who are these people that set trends in society that influences teenagers to go out and wear scanty clothes to school because its the fashion?? Who are these people that have the arrogance to publish PUBLCLY their lack of morals and values in the form of pornographic material slowly, but surely, sending us a message: If its allowed to be appear on a poster in Public : It must be OK!
This is NOT OK. Certain things ARE offensive, and because we chose to ignore it, we leaving a very bad future for our kids to be welcomed into!!
If a woman is wearing a short skirt in a train, YES... I CAN IGNORE THIS. I can change carriages, I can read a book etc... but that's my choice. If i walk into a store and ALL OF A SUDDEN they start playing rap music with sexually explicit material - WHAT CAN I DO??? I can't shut my ears. I cannot turn my head????
With swear words, and profanity being screamed at u, SURELY your child will ask u : "Dad, mom, what are they saying.. what does this/that word mean?!".... The fact that u know what it means isnt a thing to be proud about before your kid!!
We are BOMBARDED against our own will to view/listen, and entertain things that are immoral. I don't mind if someone makes a conscience decision to GO and find or do something Immoral - but to have it there- 24/7 in your face just by leaving your apartment building is dreadful.
Call me slow, but would I be correct Vassilios in thinking that with your new name here, if we do it in French, it amounts to calling you 'Cutie (QT) Everywhere (Par Tout T)' - or, if we go the Franglais option, Cutie Partoutie? (No doubt everyone else saw this long since).
I think we are generally in agreement on this thread. However strongly one feels as an individual, we in the west live in a pluralistic and liberal secular society. Reading my Times Higher Education Supplement (nothing more boring) I found myself confronted with a picture of two chaps kissing - I ask you, what's that there for?! So one has to accept it as part of the downside (as we see it) of living in such a society. The answer is not totally in the law - as the British example shows; we have laws and restrictions - people get round them.
All we can do is to ignore it and do nothing to encourage it. Where possible, we can work with politicians and the media to lessen the prevalence of this stuff - but we will always come back to the fact that if men (and let us face it, it is mainly men) did not buy this stuff, it would not exist - hence the need to change our attitudes.
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=4615.msg73346#msg73346 date=1182868585] Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Call me slow, but would I be correct Vassilios in thinking that with your new name here, if we do it in French, it amounts to calling you 'Cutie (QT) Everywhere (Par Tout T)' - or, if we go the Franglais option, Cutie Partoutie? (No doubt everyone else saw this long since).
I think we are generally in agreement on this thread. However strongly one feels as an individual, we in the west live in a pluralistic and liberal secular society. Reading my Times Higher Education Supplement (nothing more boring) I found myself confronted with a picture of two chaps kissing - I ask you, what's that there for?! So one has to accept it as part of the downside (as we see it) of living in such a society. The answer is not totally in the law - as the British example shows; we have laws and restrictions - people get round them.
All we can do is to ignore it and do nothing to encourage it. Where possible, we can work with politicians and the media to lessen the prevalence of this stuff - but we will always come back to the fact that if men (and let us face it, it is mainly men) did not buy this stuff, it would not exist - hence the need to change our attitudes.
In Christ,
Anglian
No! I DISAGREE! I believe IGNORING IT,it gets worse.
Look! Saint Paul, God BLESS this man, went to Greece and evangelised against worshiping Idols. He didnt say :"well.. let's ignore what they are doing"
The manufacturers of Diana's statue / the Craftsmen started to complain saying "Ouch! He's gonna put us out of business". They tried to have him stopped. But ask yourselves: Are we called to be passive or active in our faith???
Ignoring something wrong????
I cannot believe u are all suggesting to ignore something that's in your hands to change!!!
When saint Paul said Idol worshipping is wrong - did he condemn ANYONE!?? NO! He just preached the word of God.. that's it... the craftsmen were upset because they were afraid they'd lose their jobs. That's it. They didnt care that what they were doing was immoral and leading others into sin by creating a statue of a pretty lady making others worshipping her!!
They all agreed to themselves saying :"Diana is SOO BEAUTIFUL" ... the story makes me laugh, cos it was like they had a trade union meeting to discuss their future as craftsmen of the great goddess diana!! lol.
Saint didnt ignore this. He suffered for righteousness sake and preached the word of God. How can u sit silent??
As for Bentbabayasooo3's comments: she is not my mother , my sister, my wife ...etc.. I FIND THAT SO DEAD. SO BORING. THEY ARE MY MOTHER, MY SISTER, MY WIFE. The fact that they were raised in a society that makes them feel that this is "ok" - gives us the right to leave them ignorant of their actions!?? or should we correct this with love???
When God saw that Adam adn Eve were naked , HE COVERED THEM. He didnt start laughing at their nudity and mock them. He covered them, and I too cover them with my eyes, and thoughts but to see this EVERY DAY - day in day out, IN MY FACE - is unfair. Its as if we are FORCED to see it.
Saint paul would have had to go to the temple of Diana to worship her, if he wanted. But this is idolatory in your face. Its bring the temple of Diana and exposing it in your face from the moment your foot leaves your home.
As for my name - its cutie patoutie. lol.. its a friend's ID that Im using.
Comments
On the outside....no...we don't...on the inside though...when you go on the inside of this society....go under this society's skin...and you find the same...there is this HUGE sexual frustration in the Egyptian society...just look at the harrasment that any ordinary girl gets on the road...I meant...at least outside Egypt...the sexually oriented or active is "proud" to be so....he/she is known...the conservative is plainly so....in other words...those who love your Lord Jesus and his Church can be so easily (like those great guys from Amsterdam on this post)...and vice-versa is also there...not so in Egypt
You guys are in a free society....so you have to be freee to choose what u want and what u don't...and if u feel that pornography on the street is offensive (I personally REALLY FEEL SO) then it is ur right to protest....I am with you personally all the way...
In HIS Name,
Rami
i think not, if only life were as you say. I do agree that the treatment of women in Egypt is pittiful but its important to realise that this is happening all around the world to some certain degree.
btw ive sent an email to His Grace
??? Please reply..
This brings me to my main point: I understand where you're coming from Vas and I support it but i doubt anything can be done. Legally speaking, i hope i am correct about this, if these images are in a public place there is little you can do to control them. The fact remains that other people are not disgusted by it and in fact desire it. In a public place, it is considered freedom of expression. In terms of children being exposed, that is where i believe we could get something to happen, because they do not have the maturity to be responsible about it.
I don't think pornography is bad because they have half-naked women(or even men), or perhaps completely nude women or men. As a medical student, I see nudity all the time. The bad thing with pornography is viewing the subject as an object- in effect degrading the subject. I mean, do you think by looking at my patient I am looking at pornography? I don't think so. The problem is the heart or the way you view the subject. I guess the problem with pornography is that it is posed in a sensual way that almost the natural response is one of lust. That is what I have a problem with, its not the nudity, but the pose and degradation of the subject.
hmmmmmm....
the meaning of Pornography is:
1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement
3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction <the pornography of violence>
maybe this clearfies it a little.
What you say is right on target.
We are made in God's image, our body is the temple of the Lord - would you use a temple for lewd purposes? God is Our Father; would you perform acts of lewdness in front of your father?
God gave us love and passion for mutual comfort and for the procreation of the species, so let us not misuse what we have been given. Every human being should be treated with dignity and honour - pornography is the negation of all this. It is the visual and mental equivalent of sewerage - and who would choose to spent part of their day wading in that for pleasure?
I have know people whose lives have been ruined by addiction to pornography. Once men get the idea that women are objects for their lust, they can find it difficult to form relationships with real women. I would earnestly say to anyone out there who looks at pornography, think about what you are doing. Those women are someone's daughter or someone's sister - would you want someone to look at your sister in that way? Of course not - so don't do it yourself. The argument that you have no real influence on this evil trade is wrong; if you, and other men, did not buy it, it would not exist.
It violates those it portrays - and those who read or watch it; he who touches pitch is defiled thereby. I know some people think it does no harm; they are, I fear, wrong - it does a great deal - not least to those who use it.
In Christ,
Anglian
You are so right in what you say.
Earlier on in this thread there was a discussions about whether law could ban it. Well, in the US and the UK the answer will always be no; and even in Muslim countries, where it is banned, pornography is available, so the efficacy of a ban may be doubted.
Like all areas of our life, our faith has the answer. It calls for us to refrain from addictive and destructive activities and to pray for help. Whatever psychiatrists say about the effects of pornography, it degrades the women in it and the men who read it; yes, I know there are other types of pornography, but it is true of them too, and the overwhelming type is that meant for heterosexual men. So it really is down to each man to stay away from the stuff - just as you would from drugs.
As you say, it is all the more difficult given the advertising industry and the the popular music industry; how very awful that people make money from degrading their fellow human beings. All we can do as Christians is to keep away from the sort of 'music' you describe; would anyone in their right sense really wish to live that sort of life-style? As for advertising, well, we have a choice of what we buy; if people stopped buying from firms that used images of women in a provocative way, they'd stop doing it.
It is down to us. Those of us in the west live in a society where we have great 'freedom' - but there are very great temptations attached to that; it is our calling as followers of Christ to show our love for Him by resisting such temptations.
But, dearest to Christ Marrian, do not be fearful; the Lord Jesus Christ loves you, and He will strengthen you and protect you. As a Christian, you have a great shield against the enemy - as we all have; let us use it, and, confessing His name, do nothing that brings shame on us, or the Church. May He strengthen you in all goodness.
In Christ,
Anglian
In terms of what action to take, such as the petition to +Angaelos, you will find there are already laws in the UK about cards in telephone boxes (they are illegal, and those placing them can be prosecuted) and that pornographic magazines can only be sold in specially designated shops from which children are banned; there are so called 'soft porn' magazines which can be sold in newsagents, but which have to be on the top shelves and have their front covers censored; so in terms of what you and Vassilios were proposing, you will find there are already laws.
That is my point really. There are plenty of laws, but unless the heart of man changes, unless the market for this stuff goes away, no amount of law can stop it. There are, I gather, very severe penalties in places like Saudi Arabia for possessing this sort of thing; it is still available there.
Until we all realise that it degrades everyone involved in its production, then it will continue. If we wish to protect children from it, then laws already exist to do that. No, the answer lies not in more laws, but in a change of life by us - as ever, the Christian way has the answer and is THE way.
In Christ,
Anglian
So I think that more stringent laws is needed. The access is easy, and parents fail to be able to protect. The whole world seems to be talking about sex and paints the picture that pornography is normal part of a man's life.
In Australia, I have seen billboards of naked women with leaves or their hand covering private parts. Then there is countless radio ads and even television ads about sexual performance.
It is the summation effect that I think that as teens, we are being barricaded by thoughts of sex. As I want to be free of lust, I find all these quite ridiculous. I have realized my weakness. May the Son make me free.
That is my point really. There are plenty of laws, but unless the heart of man changes, unless the market for this stuff goes away, no amount of law can stop it. There are, I gather, very severe penalties in places like Saudi Arabia for possessing this sort of thing; it is still available there.
Until we all realise that it degrades everyone involved in its production, then it will continue. If we wish to protect children from it, then laws already exist to do that. No, the answer lies not in more laws, but in a change of life by us - as ever, the Christian way has the answer and is THE way.
ive been pondering on this for quite abit....
and THUS i agree with Monsieur John
you accidentally type something wrong in ur google search and BANG there appears porn...then u have sex stores.....then there's tv.....
ppl think and complain... this is terrible..its corrupting our children etc etc....this is reality....such temptation and sin will be ever present....
wat can we do?:
1)start with ourselves....if we have kids...bring them up with christian values and morals and emphasise the negative impact this type of media ia having....
2)key term ...TURN AWAY...
3) continusoly write letters to local politicians and council bodies
4) encourage priests or bishops to advocate the churchs views to known politicans
5) you need to speak to a french lawyer or one from europe if u want legal assistance
the change you are seeking is SOCIAL and STRUCTURAL change...this takes time and much lobbying....
its not that im not ani-porn but that instead of complaining about it...we need to deal with it... find methods of coping with such societal pressure
and its not against our "ethics"...its against will and values.....
its jus like lust in a sense but much more extreme....if u see through ur neighbours window and see them showering every day....u cud a) sit n watch or b) walk away and make note and implement measures to prevent u from looking........this person has every right to shower, u cant stop them
same with media, they want money and attention.....they need it to thrive and gain ratings....and dont forget most media compaines r owned by sleazy men....how often do u see on the news a young good looking reporter with sum old fart......it wat catches the eye
and if u can make a small difference by discussing ur concern than that seed will grow and one day make a big difference... even change the outlook of a young persons life is awesome progress
What can you do in France? Not a lot I suspect, because the French have been more 'relaxed' about this than the British.
Certainly try to persuade the bishop to talk to members of the French parliament, but, as you can see in the UK, even when you get laws, they are not very effective.
Remember, in the 1920s the USA banned the sale of alcohol - giving a huge boost to the mafia and organised crime who went into the business of providing what people want. If legislators ban something for which there is a market, then the market goes underground. There are very sever laws in the UK against the evil of child pornography - and every year the police catch more people doing it.
I really do think Kerestina is correct; you have to start with yourself and those you know; cut off the market for the stuff and it will not be produced.
In Christ,
Anglian
The one who poked his eye out with his sewing needle because there was a lady that just pulled her dress up to take off her shoe.
I am not saying poke your eyes out, I am saying if you see something wrong... pretend it is not there... don't turn your head back around and stare at it againe!!!!
If you live in France/England/where ever.... You have came in contact with a new tradition/culture/morals/everything and really it is up to you whether you want to adopt that tradition or not.... If you do NOT wish to adopt it then either move back to egypt or stop complaning.... If you live next door with a woman/man that are not friends with clothes and love to go out naked all the time.... If you have god in your heart then you won't sin... and if you teach that to your children and have GOd in their hearts they won't sin.....
I live in U.S and there is a new world around me.... Doesn't matter if i am a citizen or not.... I choose to follow my culture/religion/tradition.
I see people making out, I see people smoking objects, I see gay guys, that is their culture they are used to that.... I don't care what's around me.... It won't enfluence me not even one bit... It is like it is not even there!!!
I have no problem with her being naked. I do have a problem with her being naked in public.
SHE IS NOT YOUR WIFE, SHE IS NOT YOUR SISTER, SHE IS NOT YOUR MOTHER!! DON"T WORRY ABOUT IT!!!!
IF she wants to do that, that is her life choice. She sees what she is doing is normal because she grew up in that society.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=4615.msg73332#msg73332 date=1182862379]
I have no problem with her being naked. I do have a problem with her being naked in public.
SHE IS NOT YOUR WIFE, SHE IS NOT YOUR SISTER, SHE IS NOT YOUR MOTHER!! DON"T WORRY ABOUT IT!!!!
IF she wants to do that, that is her life choice. She sees what she is doing is normal because she grew up in that society.
Mira, Why are u shouting at me for??
She's someone who's naked and in my face; and I hardly know her name (as you correctly pointed out).
Are u saying we should get to know her more??
I personally don't think we need to go further in our relationship. I feel i already know her well enough. I just think that there should be laws that make her keep her clothes on and not force me to look at her IN PUBLIC - against my own will.
Period
I have come to read this thread just very recently, I hope it is not too late. Honestly, I couldn't read all the opinions posted but one thing stopped me "psychologist". I was interested to see what the psychologist said, as I see that many people disagreed. Yet, as I am studying psychiatry myself, I do agree with what the clinical psychologist told Vassilios (about nine months ago). Children are defined those young eight years or younger (that is in psychology at least). Some people say 12 or younger, but that tends to be rather more generally medical. Anyway, believe it or not, if an 8-year old is exposed to such pictures, or scenes, WITHOUT INTENTION, they won't take it as grown-ups do. They will certainly not understand what every bit of detail means. So, if their parents discuss the matter with them telling them what is right from wrong, they would keep away from these things (if they are good enough). Trust me, children of this age won't go about seeking those pictures, or scenes in that little age at all. On the contrary, we don't come to realise "psychologically" the difference between a boy and a girl until we are about 10 - 12 years of age. This is puberty, and it has many reasons mentally as well as physiologically.
I hope I am clear.
God bless you and mention me in your prayers
this thread just goes round and round....porn is bad...yes we all know....bad porn...slap slap slap.....did u onli jus wake up recently and realised porn existed?? uve been living 20 odd years...how have u managed to not become corrupt?? and appreacite ppl for who they r and not sex objects.....
Actually, porn has been around for ages... but you WILL NOT understand unless you come to Paris. Its now in your face... EVERYWHERE.
Before it was just sexy publicity. Now its hardcore, in your face, IN A METRO STATION!?
That didnt exist before!
Dear all,
I have come to read this thread just very recently, I hope it is not too late. Honestly, I couldn't read all the opinions posted but one thing stopped me "psychologist". I was interested to see what the psychologist said, as I see that many people disagreed. Yet, as I am studying psychiatry myself, I do agree with what the clinical psychologist told Vassilios (about nine months ago). Children are defined those young eight years or younger (that is in psychology at least). Some people say 12 or younger, but that tends to be rather more generally medical. Anyway, believe it or not, if an 8-year old is exposed to such pictures, or scenes, WITHOUT INTENTION, they won't take it as grown-ups do. They will certainly not understand what every bit of detail means. So, if their parents discuss the matter with them telling them what is right from wrong, they would keep away from these things (if they are good enough). Trust me, children of this age won't go about seeking those pictures, or scenes in that little age at all. On the contrary, we don't come to realise "psychologically" the difference between a boy and a girl until we are about 10 - 12 years of age. This is puberty, and it has many reasons mentally as well as physiologically.
I hope I am clear.
God bless you and mention me in your prayers
So, this is a different problem. Im passed puberty and it upsets me that people force these things upon us. Its not fair. They have no right.
THat's why im bothered.
Dear all,
I have come to read this thread just very recently, I hope it is not too late. Honestly, I couldn't read all the opinions posted but one thing stopped me "psychologist". I was interested to see what the psychologist said, as I see that many people disagreed. Yet, as I am studying psychiatry myself, I do agree with what the clinical psychologist told Vassilios (about nine months ago). Children are defined those young eight years or younger (that is in psychology at least). Some people say 12 or younger, but that tends to be rather more generally medical. Anyway, believe it or not, if an 8-year old is exposed to such pictures, or scenes, WITHOUT INTENTION, they won't take it as grown-ups do. They will certainly not understand what every bit of detail means. So, if their parents discuss the matter with them telling them what is right from wrong, they would keep away from these things (if they are good enough). Trust me, children of this age won't go about seeking those pictures, or scenes in that little age at all. On the contrary, we don't come to realise "psychologically" the difference between a boy and a girl until we are about 10 - 12 years of age. This is puberty, and it has many reasons mentally as well as physiologically.
I hope I am clear.
God bless you and mention me in your prayers
how is that possible though?? how can a child view pornography and not be affected???
they must form some negative or degrading perception of women??
Actually, porn has been around for ages... but you WILL NOT understand unless you come to Paris. Its now in your face... EVERYWHERE.
Before it was just sexy publicity. Now its hardcore, in your face, IN A METRO STATION!?
That didnt exist before!
ok i get 2 things from u:
1) exposure of porn is increasing
2) n ur passionate about this area
no more chit chat buddy start advocating
all u need is the passion and drive to make changes
i dont see how this has anything to do with the law
Well, I am aware that some naughty children go on and seek viewing sexual material, be it pictures, or movies, or whatever. I wasn't talking about these. I was talking about those children who accidentally view these things, or who hear about it in school from peers. The latter are not at a great risk of going on to develop a bad habit of being addicted to pornography, or even perceive a woman in a degraded unhuman way. Because the extent to which this will affect them is not immense anyway. That is why I think the psychologist was right in what she said to vassilios long ago. I hope I am clear in what I said.
Dear vassilios,
I understand your problem. I live in England, so I understand a bit of the picture, not wholly though, as you are the one who lives there. It is sad; but what is the solution? Unfortunately, even scientifically being homosexual is not considered as a disorder anymore, unlike before. European churches don't see it wrong for homosexual marriages, and think that the Bible is outdated now. I think that is as you said sending the wrong message of "pornography is only part of our life". I think it is even worse in France, where I believe (and you have to correct me in this), they have the principle of accustoming the young to sex and sensual desires to prevent crimes related to seeking a woman (like rape, and murder), but look what they have actually succeeded in? Bringing up a generation of child abusers, sex offenders, ... etc.
This is just one of the huge number of evil trying to spread their teaching in the world. End of days? I believe yes.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
i think i understand what your saying that....children who accidentally see it wont look into it further....BUT i think there must be sumfin that enters the mind?? of course they dont know they are seeing porn....but that negative image must have some affect....yani next time they see their mum go into a bra store or sumfin...the image wud be pushed bak into the unconscious i think and brought up wen they understand....
God bless n take care
People have the right to express themselves. If in expressing themselves they diminish in anyway the quality of life of those around them, then it should be a crime.
This can be applied to ANYTHING: loud music - I shouldnt have to be exposed to someone's music, porn in public places, certain offensive publicity in public places. There has to be the creation of an idependent government body made of various interest and religious groups that can condone what is to be published, heard, viewed in public.
That's the answer. Period.
Who are these people that set trends in society that influences teenagers to go out and wear scanty clothes to school because its the fashion?? Who are these people that have the arrogance to publish PUBLCLY their lack of morals and values in the form of pornographic material slowly, but surely, sending us a message: If its allowed to be appear on a poster in Public : It must be OK!
This is NOT OK. Certain things ARE offensive, and because we chose to ignore it, we leaving a very bad future for our kids to be welcomed into!!
If a woman is wearing a short skirt in a train, YES... I CAN IGNORE THIS. I can change carriages, I can read a book etc... but that's my choice. If i walk into a store and ALL OF A SUDDEN they start playing rap music with sexually explicit material - WHAT CAN I DO???
I can't shut my ears. I cannot turn my head????
With swear words, and profanity being screamed at u, SURELY your child will ask u : "Dad, mom, what are they saying.. what does this/that word mean?!".... The fact that u know what it means isnt a thing to be proud about before your kid!!
We are BOMBARDED against our own will to view/listen, and entertain things that are immoral. I don't mind if someone makes a conscience decision to GO and find or do something Immoral - but to have it there- 24/7 in your face just by leaving your apartment building is dreadful.
Call me slow, but would I be correct Vassilios in thinking that with your new name here, if we do it in French, it amounts to calling you 'Cutie (QT) Everywhere (Par Tout T)' - or, if we go the Franglais option, Cutie Partoutie? (No doubt everyone else saw this long since).
I think we are generally in agreement on this thread. However strongly one feels as an individual, we in the west live in a pluralistic and liberal secular society. Reading my Times Higher Education Supplement (nothing more boring) I found myself confronted with a picture of two chaps kissing - I ask you, what's that there for?! So one has to accept it as part of the downside (as we see it) of living in such a society. The answer is not totally in the law - as the British example shows; we have laws and restrictions - people get round them.
All we can do is to ignore it and do nothing to encourage it. Where possible, we can work with politicians and the media to lessen the prevalence of this stuff - but we will always come back to the fact that if men (and let us face it, it is mainly men) did not buy this stuff, it would not exist - hence the need to change our attitudes.
In Christ,
Anglian
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Call me slow, but would I be correct Vassilios in thinking that with your new name here, if we do it in French, it amounts to calling you 'Cutie (QT) Everywhere (Par Tout T)' - or, if we go the Franglais option, Cutie Partoutie? (No doubt everyone else saw this long since).
I think we are generally in agreement on this thread. However strongly one feels as an individual, we in the west live in a pluralistic and liberal secular society. Reading my Times Higher Education Supplement (nothing more boring) I found myself confronted with a picture of two chaps kissing - I ask you, what's that there for?! So one has to accept it as part of the downside (as we see it) of living in such a society. The answer is not totally in the law - as the British example shows; we have laws and restrictions - people get round them.
All we can do is to ignore it and do nothing to encourage it. Where possible, we can work with politicians and the media to lessen the prevalence of this stuff - but we will always come back to the fact that if men (and let us face it, it is mainly men) did not buy this stuff, it would not exist - hence the need to change our attitudes.
In Christ,
Anglian
No! I DISAGREE! I believe IGNORING IT,it gets worse.
Look! Saint Paul, God BLESS this man, went to Greece and evangelised against worshiping Idols. He didnt say :"well.. let's ignore what they are doing"
The manufacturers of Diana's statue / the Craftsmen started to complain saying "Ouch! He's gonna put us out of business". They tried to have him stopped. But ask yourselves: Are we called to be passive or active in our faith???
Ignoring something wrong????
I cannot believe u are all suggesting to ignore something that's in your hands to change!!!
When saint Paul said Idol worshipping is wrong - did he condemn ANYONE!?? NO! He just preached the word of God.. that's it... the craftsmen were upset because they were afraid they'd lose their jobs. That's it. They didnt care that what they were doing was immoral and leading others into sin by creating a statue of a pretty lady making others worshipping her!!
They all agreed to themselves saying :"Diana is SOO BEAUTIFUL" ... the story makes me laugh, cos it was like they had a trade union meeting to discuss their future as craftsmen of the great goddess diana!! lol.
Saint didnt ignore this. He suffered for righteousness sake and preached the word of God. How can u sit silent??
As for Bentbabayasooo3's comments: she is not my mother , my sister, my wife ...etc.. I FIND THAT SO DEAD. SO BORING. THEY ARE MY MOTHER, MY SISTER, MY WIFE. The fact that they were raised in a society that makes them feel that this is "ok" - gives us the right to leave them ignorant of their actions!?? or should we correct this with love???
When God saw that Adam adn Eve were naked , HE COVERED THEM. He didnt start laughing at their nudity and mock them. He covered them, and I too cover them with my eyes, and thoughts but to see this EVERY DAY - day in day out, IN MY FACE - is unfair. Its as if we are FORCED to see it.
Saint paul would have had to go to the temple of Diana to worship her, if he wanted. But this is idolatory in your face. Its bring the temple of Diana and exposing it in your face from the moment your foot leaves your home.
As for my name - its cutie patoutie. lol.. its a friend's ID that Im using.