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How old may have Adam been before his first sin?
1000 years maybe?
did God expect Adam to be without sin for 1000 years?
Also if Jesus died for us why do those who believe in Him die still?
if they didn't die then it would be a miracle and proof that christianity is the true religion.. but then where would faith be?
why did God make it that faith is necessary for salvation?
And how come jesus only had to suffer for a few hours and not for all eternity to pay the debt that we owed the Divine Justice (if that is true or makes sense)?
Why can't God dwell with sinners in heaven like He dwelt with them on earth?
did God expect Adam to be without sin for 1000 years?
Also if Jesus died for us why do those who believe in Him die still?
if they didn't die then it would be a miracle and proof that christianity is the true religion.. but then where would faith be?
why did God make it that faith is necessary for salvation?
And how come jesus only had to suffer for a few hours and not for all eternity to pay the debt that we owed the Divine Justice (if that is true or makes sense)?
Why can't God dwell with sinners in heaven like He dwelt with them on earth?
Comments
1000 years maybe?
did God expect Adam to be without sin for 1000 years?
of course God knows everything.
first you have to remeber that if you're talking the physcal death than everyone will die and wil change into dust, our original form. Christ died to save us from the death of the original sin. and here this kind of death is talking soul wise not physcal.
yes you're right but that's not the idea of going to heaven. God allready gave somthing to the people to believe in. He even sent His Son to do so. just remeber the Lazures parable. when the rich man was buring in hades, he saw luzures in the bosom of Abraham and he asked them to send some one from the dead for his brothers on earth to epent and to go to the rit path. but Abraham said they have the prophets and the law. if they wont believe by that, they wont by anything else.
and to ur quesion here: because faith is neccerly for everything. even int he old testment if the jews didn't have faith in Moses, why did they trust him. Faith somthing that is from the heart of the human. God doesn't binift from faith but we do. GOd just wants to know that if you are from the ones He wont bunish on the last day.
well the "requirments" for the Savior are: (as a dear sunday school teacher of mine said)
- Sinless
- Can come back from the dead
- Born of a virgin
- suffer in the same way the sin was committed (the tree)
to make it easy, the story was this, Christ cam on earth Sinless, full divine full human fromt he virgin. than He was crucfied using his humanty and thats why he suffered. but than when He died, He went to Hades and in His Divine form, he broke the gates of Hades restord Adam to his orignal state and abolished death of the oroginal sin by His appreance in Hades. so it didn't matter how long Christ stays on the cross as long as He does die as a human and change into His divine nture to break Hades.
i really don't know if this is clear enough to understand!!!
Because He is God can you say can He suffer for a number of hours as if it is all eternity...?
But that might not make much sense to me..
Our punishment was to go to hell forever so how come Christ only suffered a number of hours?
Because He is God can you say can He suffer for a number of hours as if it is all eternity...?
But that might not make much sense to me..
wrong statment. it said in the bible:
Genesis 3:22,23,24
22 And the Lord God said, "The man ... He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
so God never said that man will be punished forever as you say. atleast until the Messiah, teh Christ, Jesus Christ and abolishes death by His death. liek i said before, it doesn't matter how long does Christ suffer for as long as He dies as a human and crushes eath by His death.
mikeforjesus,
since you don't understand it very well, just know tat Christ has saved You by his crucifix. again the key word herer is not for how long He was crucified for, but for who.
Our punishment was to go to hell forever so how come Christ only suffered a number of hours?
Because He is God can you say can He suffer for a number of hours as if it is all eternity...?
But that might not make much sense to me..
to add to minagir's post adam NEVER WENT TO HELL but was punished by being kicked out of the paradise and going to HADES NOT HELL. Jesus suffering was to clear the sin of adam and a GOD's blood is not like humans it is a huge deal for him to be crucified for no reason of his own. Also Christ suffered to go to hades free a the his faithful servants (Adam, abraham, isaac etc.)
and take them to the paradise
but if Jesus did not come as christians understand it I would go to hell as a punishment for my sins.
the only reason you would go to hades today is if you die and you don't repentet or do all these other commendments that we recieved. but you wont go for the sin of Adam. mike, i think what you don't understand is that the only reason that people went straight to hedes including adam and his sons (until the christ) only because Pradise was closed. now the only reason you can go to hell is for your own unforginev sins. mike, please do not mix the sins we do today with the consiquence of the original sin.
Since Elijah rose at least 1 person from the dead I think and Christ Himself rose people from the dead before His own death
then is it true that Christ did not have to die and then rise again to give others at least physical life after death?
(I MIGHT BE WRONG.. I MIGHT CONFUSE SOMEONE)
maybe they would be spiritually dead though..
Was Jesus separated from God?
didn't He have to die spiritually for us? didn't He have to be seperated from God?
This is offtopic maybe but if adam and eve never sinned would there never of been sex or more humans? why in heaven will there never be food (if there won't be) since God created paradise originally with food?
Maybe God did not intend paradise to be forever.. and if Adam and Eve never sinned for some period maybe God was going to take them to heaven?
MAYBE I SAID SOMETHING HERETICAL
Why did Jesus have to die physically and not just suffer eternal death (or maybe spiritual death is better) if that makes sense..?
did Adam fall in sin with his spirit or his body. he eat the fr uit of the tree. another way to think of it is how did Adam than went to hedes, through the normal death of the body. than Christ had to do the same thing so he can acually save him. ur rit the quesion is confusing. i but i think i'll say this, with what i said above, why would you want physical life after death. after death we'll turn into spirits and than on judgment day well have incrrupt and full of light bodies that are not like what we have now, but very very diffrent that we can enter the Heaven with. spiritually dead means you're away from God even tho ur alive in flesh. God is life and away from him is death.
Jesus was never saparated from God. He's 1 of the full perfect Trinity and to leave him out is a heresy. There would of been all of that because God created Adam and brought Eve that way, having the ability to bring forth children. so they were the same all the time even when they were on earth not paradis. and we would of been there now and there wouldn't be any death.
paradise is was created and still the same and it says in Revelation that the chosen ones will come to heaven and be allowed to eat from the tree of life.
well you really not God to say may be and might. God knows everything and He still does.
I know because of the prophecy in the psalm.. but was He really forsaken?
I may have known this before.. but why did Jesus say "My God My God why have You forsaken Me?"
I know because of the prophecy in the psalm.. but was He really forsaken?
because like i said before (in 1 of your topics mike), Jesus had to die as a human so at that time, God kind of had to stay away becasue the salvation plan had to go in the rit way. ppl say why didn't God just forgive us..??....becasue He is a just God.
Those who believe in Him never die… they Live with Him for all eternity in Heaven… but those who don’t will not live with him… they’ll live with ostaz satan for all eternity! You just answered your own question… also this body sinned so you have to get a new body that is glorified… and blessed that wont stop you and get tired… so if God left us in out bodies He would not be just or fair… because the new body never tires or fails… it does not need rest… so you can stay all night praying… and it would be the regular… If you don’t believe in God… why do you deserve to be with Him? There is no reason… is there? Common sense habibi GOD IS ETERNAL… why is it that a sheep when sacrificed didn’t have to go through torture in the old testament? Its just because the main goal was just to spread the blood… and all jesus had to do was to spread blood… which He did… and his Blood is Eternal… a drop of his blood is enough to forgive Generations upon generations unto the end of ages! He dwelt with them on earth just to show them that they are sinners… so that they would repent and come back to him… and be in heaven with Him… that’s the only reason he dwelt with them!
Adam and eve ate normally… but if in heaven no they would have not gotten kids… because they did not know that they were even naked!
So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” And He said, “Who told you that you were naked?
except if God would have showed them that they were naked… and showed them that they were capable of such action… but you are just asking things that NO ONE WOULD KNOW… BECAUSE ONLY GOD CAN ANSWER SUCH QUESTIONS!
Adam wasnt subjected to aging or death or disease or anything before the fall, it was part of the Divine protection that we lost when we fell in sin. We can't possibly know how long Adam lived before the fall, its not important or relevant to anything either.
I don't think the age of the earth has anything to do with this though.
God didnt create man "sinless" in the sense that he couldnt sin. He created him free and in incorruption. If God wouldnt grant him a time to show his love for Him, then he wouldnt be free (and therefore not in the image of God, as God is free). Man was to show his love to God by obeying Him and keep this simple commandment, and even that small commandment was too much to handle.
God knew he was going to sin, but God also knew that he would save Him, and that thousands and millions would attain eternal life with God.
To understand the answer to this question we need to understand what heaven (or eternal life) is. Eternal life is to know God and to be with God. Sinners don't want to know God or be with Him, so its logic that God can't be with sinners the way he was with them on earth. On earth he was the one who came to them, but some will keep keep rejecting Him. And btw, God is omnipresent, he is everywhere, and God still loves the sinner, even in eternity. The problem is that the sinner keeps rejecting God and His love...so its not God who can't be with the sinner in eternity, its the sinner who rejects to be with God.
PS for some reason the quotes can't be read properly (at least not on my computer, u'll need to select the quote to be able to read it)
what could Satan do if he knew anyway?
Why did Jesus want to hide His divinity from Satan?
what could Satan do if he knew anyway?
He didn't hid in the exact meaning. He just didn't what Satan wnated which knowing if He was the Son of God. you think Satan would of just let it go if knew that Jesus was the Christ....no...
1000 years maybe?
did God expect Adam to be without sin for 1000 years?
I only read the first post (the question) but anyway, Adam had no way to sin during those thousand years. Only eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That was basically the only way he could sin in paradise. There was knowone else to sin with him or for him to sin with (until God made Eve from Adam).
Another point, God had not made any rules for them (Adam an Eve) to break except-Do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil-and they did break that rule. Even if they did sin, they would not know of it because the did not have knowledge of good and evil something the tree provided them with.
If anyone wrote the same thing before me, sorry for repeating.
GBU all
Tenoosht
If Satan was able to recognize the divinity of God (which he definitly could not) then he would not have let Jesus walk to the death of the cross to save the righteous from hades.
Did people have to sin by murder for Jesus to accomplish salvation?
that seems to mean it was good for the jews to hate jesus and if there was no evil there would be no good..
confusing
As to why Jesus said My God , My God why have You forsaken Me Pope Shenouda addresses it
From the book
THE SEVEN WORDS OF
OUR LORD ON THE CROSS
BY
H. H. POPE SHENOUDA III
http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/svnwrds/index.html
God allowed that Jesus should suffer, sacrifice Himself and
be tortured but did not break away from Him... It was not a
separation but rather a dispensation. God suffered that His Son
should suffer but still loved him fully, "Yet it pleased the Lord
to bruise Him" (Is. 53:10).
An example that may make the meaning easy to grasp:
Suppose a parent accompanied his child to the hospital for
an operation, let us say for the removal of an abscess; that the
parent was holding the child's hand while the surgeon went on
with his incision. The child would then start to cry and plead
with his father not to let that happen to him saying to him,
"Why did you forsake me? "
44
In fact, the father did not desert his child, he only allowed
him to suffer since the operation was for his own good and he
had only total care and love for his child.
This incident, I would say, demonstrates how that could be
considered abandonment without actual severance of ties.
The Fourth Word
"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Matt.
27:46).
This statement does not mean a separation of the divine
nature of Jesus Christ from His human nature, nor does it
mean that the Father has forsaken the Son. It means rather
that the Father has allowed Him to be tormented.
His divine nature and His human nature were never separated
for a single moment or a wink of the eye. That is what we firmly
believe in and what we recite in the Holy Mass... If ever His
divine nature deserted Him, His redemption could never have
been considered as infinite, rendering infinite salvation, capable
of atoning for the sins of all humanity throughout the ages.
Thus, there was no rupture between His divine and human
nature.
As for His relationship with the Father, the Father did not
forsake Him. Let us only consider this verse: "Believe Me that I
am in the Father, and the Father in Me" (John 14:1l).
What is the meaning then of, "Why have You forsaken
Me?"
It does not mean a separation; it indicates only that the
Father did allow that He should suffer; that He should bear the
blame and suffer God's wrath over sin. That goes for the
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emotional torment He underwent. As for the physical pain; God
allowed that He should suffer physically though God, in His
omnipotence, could have made Him insensible to pain. But, if
that had happened, the Crucifixion would have been null and
void - for pain would never have been experienced and
consequently, no penalty has been inflicted, no acquittal effected
and no redemption accomplished...
Thus, the Father allowed that the Son should suffer, and
the Son accepted that ordinance and was also afflicted by
it. In fact Christ came to the world for that particular
reason.. It was a rupture that both parties preconceived
and agreed to... for the sake of humanity, and the Divine
Justice...
God allowed that Jesus should suffer, sacrifice Himself and
be tortured but did not break away from Him... It was not a
separation but rather a dispensation. God suffered that His Son
should suffer but still loved him fully, "Yet it pleased the Lord
to bruise Him" (Is. 53:10).
An example that may make the meaning easy to grasp:
Suppose a parent accompanied his child to the hospital for
an operation, let us say for the removal of an abscess; that the
parent was holding the child's hand while the surgeon went on
with his incision. The child would then start to cry and plead
with his father not to let that happen to him saying to him,
"Why did you forsake me? "
44
In fact, the father did not desert his child, he only allowed
him to suffer since the operation was for his own good and he
had only total care and love for his child.
This incident, I would say, demonstrates how that could be
considered abandonment without actual severance of ties.
The word "Forsaken " means that the torment of
Crucifixion was actual and that God's wrath was
excruciating... The act of abandonment was the climax of all
torment on the Cross; all torment of redemption... Here Christ
resembles a burnt sacrifice. An offering to God for the
atonement of sin - to be consumed by the divine fire until it
turns to ashes and satisfies fully the Divine Justice..
A great number of theologians do believe that the Lord
when saying, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken
Me" was reminding the Jews of the Twenty-second Psalm
which starts with the same verse.
They were referred to as those who, Do not knowing the
Scriptures (Matt. 22:29) while those Scriptures testified of
Him (John 5:39). So the Lord Christ chose to remind them
of this particular Psalm. Actually the system of numbering
the Psalms was not known to the Jews. They used to
identify each Psalm by its opening verse, as it is the custom
among the Egyptian monks nowadays...
What does this Psalm tell us about Jesus Christ?
"They have pierced My hands and My feet, I can count all My
bones; they look and stare at Me; they divide My garments
45
among them, And for My clothing they cast lots. "
(Ps 22:16-18).
It is all evident that David the Prophet, who composed this
Psalm, had nobody pierce his hands or feet. Nobody parted his
garments or cast lots upon his vesture. This verse was actually
an inspired prophecy about Jesus Christ - as if Christ on the
Cross was telling the Jews: "Go ahead and read the Psalm,
starting with: "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
and see what has been told about Me. You will see also that the
following has been said about Me:
"A reproach of men, and despised of the people. All they,
that see Me, laugh Me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they
shake the head, saying: He trusted in the Lord that He would
deliver Him, let Him deliver Him, seeing He delighted in Him "
(Ps 22: 6 8).
To analyze this entire Psalm would require more space than
we have... It illustrates Christ's sufferings on the Cross. "Then
He opened their understanding, that they might understand the
Scriptures." (Luke 24:45).
All that the Psalm described began to be realised. Thus,
He was able to say shortly after: "It is finished. " But why
did they not say, "It is finished" right after His pronouncement:
"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" The reason is
that there is another verse in this Psalm that was not yet realised
which is: "My strength is dried up like a potsherd: and My
tongue clings to My jaws. " (Ps. 22:15) this part will be realised
later when He says: "I thirst ". That is why He said, "It is
finished" right after.
46
Then why did the Lord Christ say: "My God, My God?"
He said that in His capacity as a representative of humanity.
He said that because He took the shape of a servant, and
became similar to man. "But made Himself of no reputation.
taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of
men " (Phil. 2: 7 and 8). He said these words because "He
humbled Himself", "and became obedient to the point of
death, even the death of the cross" (Phil. 2:9) He spoke as the
Son of man, who has taken over a human nature and taken
man's position, and agreed to represent humanity before God,
assumed all human sins and is paying off all their debts.
Here we see that all humanity is talking through Him...
As He assumed all human sins, and a sin is a separation from
God and a cause of God's wrath, all humanity is crying through
Christ, saying: "My God, My God, why have You forsaken
Me?"...
Christ represented humanity in so many things if not in
all things! !
Christ did fast on our behalf:
Adam and Eve were not able to abstain from the forbidden
fruit and they plucked it and ate. As for Christ, He began His
life by abstaining even from all edibles. He was in no need to
fast, but He fasted forty days and forty nights as mentioned in
the church hymns.
47
He represented us in observing God's law:
"The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of
men, to see if there were any who understand, and seek God.
They have all gone aside, they have all together become
corrupt; " (Ps. 14:2,3).
When Christ came, He represented humanity in being
obedient to God. He observed the Law, "To fulfil all
righteousness" (Matt. 3:15) as He mentioned at the time of
baptism. Thus, He acted the part of humanity in offering God a
chaste and a gracious acceptable life...
He represented us in death, torment and the atonement
of sin:
"For He has made Him to be sin for us who knew no sin"
(2 Cor 5:21). He suffered all God's wrath for the sinful with all
the bitterness therein. And as a representative of humanity said:
"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" And He
who helped everybody and has never forsaken any person,
was forsaken by all, even by the Father. In that way He paid
off our debt and suffered God's wrath and emerged triumphant,
having been tried emotionally and physically...
He also gave us that a poignant lesson so that we may be
more cautious.
If sin would have as a consequence all such
abandonment and pain, we should: "See then that we walk
circumspectly" (Eph. 5:15). We should be wary about
abandoning God so that God would not abandon us in turn. The
48
Son Himself has been forsaken. The torment of being
abandoned is unbearable. We should thank our Lord Jesus
Christ for all that love and for all His abnegation..
The words: "why have You forsaken Me?" should be a
source of consolation for us when we encounter any difficulty.
Knowing that if the Lord has not "Spared His Own Son" (Rom.
8:32), why should we grumble about whatever suffering God
allows? God was pleased to put His own beloved Son to Grief.
And in spite of His saying "This is My Beloved, Son, in whom I
am well pleased" (Matt. 3:17), why do we grumble at the
moments of trial though we could never suffer as much as
Christ suffered and though we deserve to be punished. The Son
drank willingly the cup that the Father offered Him. He only
said, "Your will be done" and was obedient until death on the
Cross. His pronouncement: "why have You forsaken Me?" was
not a complaint or protest, as we have said before but it was
only an expression of the reality of His suffering and a
declaration that the act of redemption is being realised...
49