Hello,
Kolla Sana wentom tayebeen. Merry Christmas to you all.
I was just wondering, if someone is interested in becoming a Christian, what are the advantages of being baptised Orthodox (whether Chalcedonian or NON Chalcedonian), and the advantages of being part of our Orthodox Faith?
I hate discussions where we start saying "Well, my Church is better than your Church" - but, im curious to know what we have in our Church that should encourage someone who is considering being baptised as a Christian to really take orthodoxy as a viable option.
What can we say that should attract someone to our faith (regardless of the orthodox church: i.e. Chalcedonian or Non-Chalcedonian). Of course, you can direct your answer to just discuss the advantages of the Coptic Church only if you wish.
Thank you,
Comments
Does the baby grow more Christian and holy if they get the oil?
What are the advantages of using this oil?
They actually use Holy Oil in other orthodox churches. This for me, would be the most obvious example. But i don't really know the efficacies or blessings in using this oil.
Thanks
Also, I forgot to mention, that the one of the most obvious differences is how we baptise and the use of the Holy Oil (Mayroun) during baptism. What are the advantages of such oil over say, catholic baptisms where the child/baby only gets a few drops of water on his/her head without oil?
Whilst baptism by means of pouring water 3 times on the head is permitted, by such ancient documents as the Didache, in situations where propper baptism is not possible, it has always been the practice of the Church from its very beginning to baptise by means of triple immersion in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
The use of the holy oil (chrism) relates to the sacrament of Christmation and corresponds to the Catholic/Lutheran/Anglican practice of confirmation.
In fact, the Catholic/Lutheran practice of confirmation by the laying on of hands is actually more ancient than the Orthodox practice of annointing with holy chrism. However, this practice quickly became the norm (at least in the East) and is attested to by countless Church Fathers.
The important difference is that whereas the Orthodox receive the holy chrism immediately after baptism, and thereby are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Catholic/Lutheran practice delays this until a person is 12-14 years of age normally.
It seems dangerous to me that a baptised person is deprived of the seal of the Holy Spirit until such a late age. Likewise, Catholics also deny Holy Communion to people until they've reached the "age of reason" which to me is insane.
I want to focus on one important aspect of Christian life: worship.
There is a powerful Latin maxim: “Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi” which is often translated “as we worship, so will we live”. How we worship not only reveals what we believe but guides us in how we live our Christian faith. This phrase also highlights the centrality of worship in the mission of the Church.
One of the most striking aspects of Orthodox Christianity is the strong attachment to tradition, especially in the area of worship. The Orthodox Church (both Chalcedonian or Non-Chalcedonian) has nurtured Her liturgies and resisted the trend in Christendom to modernize and become relevant to contemporary secular society. Cradle Orthodox Christians may take these things for granted, perhaps even envy (say for example) Catholics for their 45 minute Clown Masses, but I assure you that inquirers and converts do not take these things lightly.
Many inquirers are looking for the right worship, also known as orthopraxis. Let me be frank, post-modern contemporary worship is as far as you get from orthopraxis. The Rock Masses, Halloween Masses and Bring-Your-Pet-To-Church Masses do nothing but make a mockery of Christian worship. Rather than enriching worship of God, they obscure the true purpose of worship by turning it into another form of entertainment. Worship in this sense is no longer directed at God but at ourselves. If it is true that how we worship impacts on how we live, is it any wonder that the churches that have embraced post-modernism are now in a severe state of moral crisis?
Many inquirers into the Orthodox Church recognize the richness of Orthodox worship. When they participate in Divine Liturgy, they begin to realize that Orthodox worship was passed through the ages from the very roots of Christendom. They discover a form of worship that encompasses all the five senses: they see the communion of saints in the iconography, smell the incense, touch the floor while prostrating and kiss icons, hear the chanted liturgy and Word of God, and eventually, taste the precious body and blood of our Lord (after conversion).
The service may not be chanted to the same standard as the London Philharmonic Choir, and the people at church may not be as welcoming as one would expect, but nonetheless they discover the richness of Orthodox worship. And when they experience this worship, they know that the Holy Spirit, through the Orthodox Church, will transform their lives and guide them closer to Christ.
I should clarify that there are many more differences between Orthodoxy and other churches than just the liturgy. In some cases, such as the Eastern and Coptic Catholic Churches, it is almost identical. But I predict many Western Christians, particularly young Christians, will soon start asking questions as to why they are left with an empty feeling when they leave church every Sunday. They will realize that what they are yearning for is not a shortened, “more relevant”, fun service. They are yearning for a reverent service that truly glorifies God and heals their soul. They want more, not less. Some have found this in a traditionalist parish within their own communion, if one can be found. Others may look to the Orthodox Church.
So I end by posing the question, how does your parish reach out to inquirers of the Orthodox faith?
The Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church follow the Eastern tradition of administering the sacrament of penance immediately after baptism.
Edit: Grammar
With respect to spiritual benefit, what is one losing by NOT being confirmed until a late young adult life?
It seems to me that the following reasons are on the side for becoming orthodox; and each point is a very unfortunate result of the disassociation within the Catholic Church.
a) The Catholic Church is compromised of 10000s of communities. Each community, although under the authority of Rome may not have similar spirituality as other Catholic communities. For example: There maybe some catholic communities that are Charismatic; some that are traditionalists, there may be some communities who believe in Fornication and some who confess vehemently against adultary and fornication.
The Orthodox, whether Coptic or Greek, are ONE with respect to what is correct spiritually.
If a catholic person attends a mass where they are laying on hands and people are falling over each other, and that person IS NOT charismatic, what will that do their faith?
Will they themselves feel that "this" is their Church.
Orthodoxy is not about emotions - nor playing with emotions.
B) With respect to being baptised as Orthodox, we have 36 areas on our body that is sanctified by the Holy Chrism.
What the effect of this is, i don't know
C) If you are in love with monastism or Saint Anthony's children, then Orthodoxy is for you.
D) If you want to celebrate Christmas on the 7th of January to benefit for the new year sales, then Orthodoxy is for you. Its good for your spirit, and good for your purse! ;)
Other than that, why would someone chose Orthodoxy over Catholicism???
Long time no see my friend!I haven't been on alot either so..... nice seeing you again!
Bos ya vas, I am going to be as honest with you as I can be! and if my honesty offends someone then I apologize!
The main difference between Catholics and Orthodoxs is that "us" orthodox have lawers infront of god that can help us out alot! Saints, we ask for their intercessions infront of the holy throne on our behalf. Everyday there is a new miracle of not just a saint but by many saints to people in need. The saints act as a lawer in your side infront of God "judge"!
Also, to be honest with you........
You never hear of miracles happening in catholic churchs, atleast not that I have heard! Also, You don't hear of St. Mary appearing on a mosque again not that I have heard of.
I have read a miracle, where St. Mary carrying baby Jesus on her arms with Pope Kyrollos and Pope Shenoda and visiting someone concerning and Issue they had.
It does NOT matter what kind of Christian you are, aslong as you belive in god "Jesus Christ" and the resurection and his 10 commedments, Then I say you are in a good shape. However, being orthodox and celebrating Christmas on January 7th is not because there is a new years sale going on ya vas, but because we go by a coptic calender! Also, being an orthodox christian has its benifites you get to have more than one Lawer "SAINT" to talk to God on your behalf
Concerning the "OIL", It was giving to Saint Mark the Apolstole and it was said that the oil came from God!
Oil does miracles if you believe, and I am sure you have heard of Pictures Driping Oil in chruchs "ORTHODOX CHURCHS!"
Catholics in general, have different belives, like for an example..... some of them belive in sex before marriage! and the bible says "Sex is a gift from god to the MARRIED COUPLES"!
Any-one can feel free to correct me.
;)
Pray for me,
I do disagree with many points u have raised. There are miracles amongst catholics. Of course, the Coptic CHurch is so dear to Our Lord because He passed through Egypt when fleeing Herod.
But for someone choosing a church, the only reason i can see why being Coptic is good is:
a) The Original Authentic Style Baptism with Holy Chrism,
b) The Catholic Church is in tatters and confused. The Catholic Church has one charismatic community and one non-charismatic community, it has so many different communities that one may have the feeling that they are completely different churches. If we teach someone that the errors of their ways were sinful, and they must go and repent; what scares me is that they may come across a catholic community who will tell them :"Actually, adultary and fornication arent really sins so long as u truly loved the person" . (And this has happened. I certify that there is one community that preaches this).
Such an environment will be destructive to anyone. We are stable in our theology. We won't go and change something to suit anyone. THat's so important for anyone trying to become Christian.
c) We have a strong history in the Church equal and more deep rooted than Rome's history. Saint Mark's house was where the Holy Spirit came on the Holy Apostles. He was the 1st Patriarch of Egypt, and hence the Coptic Church.
All monks, whether catholic or Coptic are the sons of Saint Anthony the Great - the Coptic.
The Catholic Faith or Creed was written by Saint Athanasious the Apostolic, Bishop and later Patriarch of the Coptic Church. They then added the filloque and other stuff, but to this day, the catholics call their creed the creed of Saint Athanase.
The catholics are entagled on politics and world affairs and other scandals. This is discouraging . Its discouraging for anyone who wishes to be associated with a Church. The Coptic Church has never been a church of politics nor a political establishment. For many years, the Catholic Church and the State were one. This had some good effects of course, but later on, it proved to lose its credibility as it was seen as more and more corrupt by money and power.
The Coptic CHurch is a Church of martyrs. Its a house of martyrs. The entire Church from the building to its prayers lead the christian to repentance. It has nothing to do with politics.
OK. THere is a small problem of Egyptianism within the Church that could put anyone off.... but if we see above that, it is a Church that has been faithful to Christ in everyway possible. She has been a good and honest wife of the True Bridegroom.
THe bad points are this (all with respect to foreign/non egyptian chiristians in the CHurch)
..... a) What if someone doesnt speak arabic or coptic? this is hard.
..... b) What if a woman is forced out of the church because some egyptian told her she was standing on the wrong side of the Church?
I could go on and on, but it appears that the egyptian culture has hindered many non egyptians from joining.
If the Coptic Mass was entirely in English then people would enjoy it more who were not arabic speakers.
These are domestic problems. Its not a criticism on our theology or our faith nor our patrology. Its domestic, its silly stuff that we can change to make us more accepting of non egyptians in the Church.
You see the dilema: If someone is now choosing whether to be catholic or orthodox, and they don't speak arabic ONE BIT, no matter how faithful and true the Coptic Church is to the teachings of the apostles and Christ, if they are not accepted nor understand the egyptian culture within the Church, what likelihood is there of them being baptised Coptic?
You see the dilema: If someone is now choosing whether to be catholic or orthodox, and they don't speak arabic ONE BIT, no matter how faithful and true the Coptic Church is to the teachings of the apostles and Christ, if they are not accepted nor understand the egyptian culture within the Church, what likelihood is there of them being baptised Coptic?
I think you will find this will change over time. The Coptic Orthodox parish in my area already offer Mass in English on Saturday mornings to cater for the pastoral needs of converts and first/second generation immigrants who not understand Arabic.
Yes, i agree totally - of course. These are domestic issues.
And u r right, they will change over time - hopefully.
Today, the congregation in Saint Mark's Church signed a petition to ask the priests to pray more in English. I agree.
We can't keep on praying in a language that is foreign to us. To add insult to injury, why should any Copt pray in Arabic, this was the language of Islam that was imposed on us. To make the injury look even more silly; those who try to pray in Coptic to keep the "Coptic thing going" don't even pronounce Coptic Well... they speak it with an awful arabic accent.
Its not bashois, but Pa-shoyss. Its not bikhrestoss, but "Pi-Ekhristos"; its not sanato but "Thanatou".
So even the Copts that try and maintain their coptic heritage by speaking in a language they don't understand speak it with an awful arabic accent that arabifies the entire Coptic language.
Its not healthy to pray in a language that is foreign to you.
Regardless, that was a side topic. These are domestic issues, and if people wish to pray in Arabic, i'd just like to say this:
That's totally OK, but its a shame that you've immigrated to the West and still insist on that; however, if u do pray in ARabic or Coptic, remember us in your holy prayers.
(concerning speaking arabic)
Some people are royal to their true culture and true ethic group, and they don't like to be people they are not who they are.
Somepople are proud of who they are and where they came from including me, eventhough egypt is in the middle of all problems and terrirosts. I used to feel ashmed of coming from the middle east, because I thought when I say where I came from to others they might go and duck under a table! :P bas now........ Egypt is in the bible, it is a place where Jesus and St. Mary and Joseph the carpenter visited.
Speaking arabic in a coptic church is not a problem. There are about 3-5 americans TRUE AMERICANS who babtisied coptic orthodox in my church!!
Also, there is Liturgy and Vespers in English! If a person can go online you can find all many things about coptic orthodox churchs.
(Concerning being catholic)
I honestly haven't heard of any miracles happening in Catholic chruchs! If you have something to share with refrence, Please share it, I would love to hear and read about it!
However, Catholic Churchs make things fit the way they want it to fit, not the way it is supposed to be.
Like Sex, dating, divorce..... etc.....
However, Catholic is a CHRISTIAN RELIGION, and all you need to go to heaven is Babtisim, communion, and a good heart!
bentBABAyasooa`
Other than that, why would someone chose Orthodoxy over Catholicism???
Doctrinal issues would be one very important reason.
There are many similarities between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Both are apostolic, both have Holy Orders, both believe in the communion of saints, etc.
But on the same token, there are great differences on important matters such as the authority of the Bishop of Rome, the filioque, original sin and salvation theology (eg Theosis). These issues have been explored in other threads, so there is no need to elaborate on them here.
Personally, after reading a little of the Church Fathers, I find the Catholic interpretation of these matters to be very difficult to reconcile. Those Church Fathers can cause all sorts of problems for a Catholic like me :P
So I guess a serious enquirer of both Catholicism and Orthodoxy needs to do a bit of homework. Which Church remains true the Gospel of Christ and early Church Fathers? And which Church split away and did their own thing?
I honestly haven't heard of any miracles happening in Catholic chruchs! If you have something to share with refrence, Please share it, I would love to hear and read about it!
The Catholic Church recognise numerous apparitions of the Virgin Mary. Some famous examples are apparitions in Lourdes, France and Fatima, Portugal (perhaps the most famous). The body of St Teresa of Avila remains incorrupt. St Francis of As.sisi and St. Padre Pio were known to experience stigmata, a phenomenon possibly unique to the Catholic Church.
These are just a few examples of miracles in the Catholic Church.
Edit: Spelling
However, Catholic Churchs make things fit the way they want it to fit, not the way it is supposed to be.
Like Sex, dating, divorce..... etc.....
Official Catholic Church doctrine allows no such thing. Sadly, I must concede that there are plenty of "theologians" in the Catholic Church who are challenging traditional Christian teaching on morality and leading many astray.
We have some very strong bishops who vigorously defend the faith at all cost, but unfortunately there are many bishops who do little to rebuke these so-called "theologians". I pray that Pope Benedict's pontificate fosters a new generation of strong leaders who will guard the Christian church from those who espouse immorality as virtue.
[quote author=bentBABAyasooa` link=board=4;threadid=4872;start=0#msg66137 date=1168839104]
However, Catholic is a CHRISTIAN RELIGION, and all you need to go to heaven is Babtisim, communion, and a good heart!
As an outsider of the Orthodox Church I hope you are right. But don't you believe that outside the church there is no salvation? Do you not pray that your seperated brethen will one day return to the one catholic and apostolic church?
Some egyptian culture in the CHurch...
Listen, bentbabayassoo3a - Im not criticising the Coptic Church. I m focusing on the benefits why someone should want to be Orthodox.
Also, i suggest something for EVERYONE to do:
IF U ARE LIVING IN THE DIASPORA, GO AND ASK ANYONE NON-EGYPTIAN WHO HAS BEEN BAPTISED ORTHODOX AND ASK THEM WHAT CAN YOU/WE DO TO HAVE MADE THEM MORE WELCOME IN THE CHURCH??
Just see the responses... you'll get the following points:
a) Mass /Sermons should be in English
b) Less noise.
No one is interested in changing the orthodox church or making it anyway different.
Ask them what they would change about the catholic church:
a) I wish they would make up their minds on what their dogma is and stick to it.
b) I wish they would not be charismatic
c) I wish they would not be traditionalists
d) I wish those with Monseigneur Lebvefbre (the integrists) would join with the new generation and have the same faith.
THese are SERIOUS problems. They are not domestic at all.
Look, the only problem of the Coptic Church is domestic. Ya3ni: Noisy churches, with babies running around shouting.. etc..
Bas ya3ni people go to get closer to god and feel his presence!
Noisey churchs?
To be Honest, I never feel like me unless I am in church!
[quote author=vassilios link=board=4;threadid=4872;start=15#msg66159 date=1168858483]
Listen, bentbabay***oo3a - Im not criticising the Coptic Church. .
My Bad if i said something!
[quote author=vassilios link=board=4;threadid=4872;start=15#msg66159 date=1168858483]
I m focusing on the benefits why someone should want to be Orthodox.
My bad again!
So, you wouldnt see any other denomination as the Body of Christ.
If the Church is the bride of Christ, then having multiple brides would be a sin. How is it that we can all be in ex-communication, and each Church considers herself the bride of Christ? The fact that we are ex-communicated and still co-existing as the Bride of Christ means that Christ has more than One Bride. THat can't be.
Are we therefore the "true" Bride of Christ? is that what u mean Iqbal?
Its a strange and very disturbing situation for any member of the Church to witness.
I do tend to agree with and share your zealousness about ONE thing though Iqbal: God forbid the Orthodox Churches changes in anyway: in its doctrine, philosophy, teachings, morals - anything. Heck, even keep the domestic problems if it means our Church doesnt change. (I guess you can say my eyes have opened since i joined this forum last year. And its definately not because of the "fuzzy" warm feeling Coptic people give me, whether in this forum or not).
What a good discussion!
This interests me because on 11 February (God willing) I shall be received into the British Orthodox Church, which comes under the Patriarchate of Alexandria. This helps answer one question posed here, the one of language. His Holiness has been happy for our Church to develop in the English language. In his wisdom he takes the view of the Apostles in Acts 15 where it was decided to preach to the Gentiles in their own tongue; one of many examples of how scriptural the Coptic Orthodox Church is.
Why Orthodoxy? Well Iqbal got it when he wrote: As an Englishman I have found the Copts most welcoming, and so willing to share the pearl of great price with others - true to the Faith, but not arrogant or exclusive; just Orthodox.
I have a great admiration for St. Cyril of Alexandria, whose theology is so rich, and whose work explains so much. The Coptic Church has shown its witness in suffering and martyrdom - never in imperial splendour. It has held to the Faith and to Holy Tradition against odds so overwhelming that one is reminded of what Our Lord says in Matthew 16:18, These are some of my reasons - but most of all, Iqbal is correct. The Coptic Orthodox Church maintains the Faith that was received from Our Lord and came through him to the Apostles. I hope, on Sunday, to be received into it -
In Christ,
John
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
What a good discussion!
This interests me because on 11 February (God willing) I shall be received into the British Orthodox Church, which comes under the Patriarchate of Alexandria. This helps answer one question posed here, the one of language. His Holiness has been happy for our Church to develop in the English language. In his wisdom he takes the view of the Apostles in Acts 15 where it was decided to preach to the Gentiles in their own tongue; one of many examples of how scriptural the Coptic Orthodox Church is.
Why Orthodoxy? Well Iqbal got it when he wrote: As an Englishman I have found the Copts most welcoming, and so willing to share the pearl of great price with others - true to the Faith, but not arrogant or exclusive; just Orthodox.
I have a great admiration for St. Cyril of Alexandria, whose theology is so rich, and whose work explains so much. The Coptic Church has shown its witness in suffering and martyrdom - never in imperial splendour. It has held to the Faith and to Holy Tradition against odds so overwhelming that one is reminded of what Our Lord says in Matthew 16:18, These are some of my reasons - but most of all, Iqbal is correct. The Coptic Orthodox Church maintains the Faith that was received from Our Lord and came through him to the Apostles. I hope, on Sunday, to be received into it -
In Christ,
John
Welcome John to the Orthodox Church!
Im glad you were well received by Orthodox Christians. Those such as Iqbal/Orthodox11 are all good examples, but we are all proud of our Church and its spiritual heritage.
I admit, whenever I say i'm Orthodox to anyone who is anglican/catholic/protestant, i get a good response.
Furthermore, the progress of unification between Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian is increasing pace. Orthodox11 can update us on this actually.
WHat I noticed also is that the Coptic Orthodox Church, especially in London, has been invaded by Greek Orthodox Christians who come to our Friday meetings, and have fallen in love with our Agpeya and Tasbeha. They loved the agpeya so much, that we are now in serious shortage. LOL (Im joking, its just that my greek orthodox brothers reading this will understand what im saying!).
Iqbal hit the nail on the head, and as usual has destroyed the nail in its entirety, as there can never be dispute: we have never deviated from the apostolic faith. THose responsible for the Nicean Creed were Coptic Orthodox (Saint Athanasios). Those responsible for monastism, its conception, its definition and protocols were Coptic Orthodox (Saint Anthony); Those responsible for the structure of each liturgical mass were Coptic orthodox (Saint Basil).
Even Saint John Chrysostom was Coptic at heart. He said :"If you wish to know how to Praise the Lord, please, go to the Coptic Orthodox Church and learn from them".
(Im serious, according to my Sunday School teacher, he did say that).
The 1st Mass (the last supper) was held at the house of Saint Mark.
The Holy Spirit appeared as tongues of fire on the heads of the apostles in Saint Mark's House.
The list goes on and on...
Thanks to everyone who has participated in this discussion.
Thank you for your kind words.
What a powerful witness your list is. A few years ago one of my sons worked with a mission in Egypt and told me of the wonderful witness of the Copts, and how right he was.
My particular favourite is St. Cyril of Alexandria, whose work defines Orthodoxy. In the west people believe that it was Pope Leo whose work defined Christology at Chalcedon, but in fact it was only when the delegates were satisfied that his work was in line with that of St. Cyril that it was accepted. There is no need, here, to go into Chalcedon and the sadness that followed it, and, as you say, we are, hopefully, moving towards better times.
But the Copts have always kept the Faith delivered once and for all, and, as you say, have made such a mark in defining and spreading it. I think, if I can say so, that His Holiness, Pope Shenouda III is one of the towering figures of modern Christianity. His works, which I love to read, and get so much from, deserve to be better known in the west, and, with his permission, the British Orthodox Church wants to make sure that happens in the UK.
One member of our Fellowship (which is a group for those interested in Orthodoxy) has written to say that when he read the Pope's book on 'Homosexuality' he had never read anything so powerful on that vexed subject; this, he said, was the voice of the Church, and suddenly it was all clear for him, and he knew peace. What a powerful witness the Pope is for the Faith.
I feel blessed and fortunate to be becoming part of such an historic and living Church.
In Christ,
John
why shouldnt one be Orthodox??
simply compare the atmosphere when you walk into other christian churches with the coptic church..
the orthodox church has much to offer and is very strong in its faith
why should one be Orthodox???
why shouldnt one be Orthodox??
simply compare the atmosphere when you walk into other christian churches with the coptic church..
the orthodox church has much to offer and is very strong in its faith
You know what? The way things are looking, i think the future for the Coptic Orthodox Church looks pretty good actually: Here's why:
* We've never been imperialistically motivated (thanks John!) . It means , Christians will see us as a house of God,not a political association that they've stigmatised with the Catholic Church (for obvious reasons). This probably would mean more catholics coming to join us.
* Now Check this out: Bob Marley was Coptic Orthodox. Imagine how good that makes us look!! Every rasterfarian becomes a rastaman because he wants to be like Bob Marley.
HHAHA.. its funny, but, actually, the man decided to be Coptic Orthodox before dying. Remember those songs:
Redemption Song
Jammin with the Lord?
3 little Birds...
U know what?? It would be wiser for everyone if we sang Bob Marley's songs in the Friday meeting than the lame protestant songs that they've started to do!
I'll present the idea to them; for those who are really fun lovin' they can bring their own red yellow and black head gear, or T-Shirts...
* We have spiritual tradition in our Church, which is becoming more and more valuable!! (given that its now a scarce resource in many many other churches!!).
If u are Coptic, i'd hold on to your shares if u were u, it looks like the price is going up.
Thank you for your thoughts and your optimism.
If anyone wants to see the Christian Church as the suffering servant of God, reaching out with love to those who are stumbling and need help, he or she will find it in the Coptic Church.
I was lost, but am found. It seems like coming home, and I am grateful for the welcome from my brothers and sisters in Christ.
In Christ,
John