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This has always bothered me....

basketballbasketball
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
this has always bothered me soooooooo much...the question to me drives me nuts heres the question:

Why do we all have to suffer just because of one persons sin?(adams sin from the apple tree)

answers please

pray for my weakness
mary

Comments

  • Unknown
    I just read your question Mary, in simple 1 + 1 = 2:

    God blessed Adam and Eve and commanded them to multiply and fill the earth, Genesis 1:
    27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

    Be fruitful: logically a good tree produces good fruits and vice versa. Likewise, after Adam and Eve fell into sin, their next generations produced were carrying the sinful corruption of the parents. Then all these generations of daughters and sons sinned further (including current generations).

    God did not want to destroy the beautiful creation He made, loved and blessed.

    God bless you.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=basketball link=topic=5028.msg67970#msg67970 date=1172327010]
    this has always bothered me soooooooo much...the question to me drives me nuts heres the question:

    Why do we all have to suffer just because of one persons sin?(adams sin from the apple tree)

    First, it was both of them sin, Adam and Eve.
    Second, we are not suffering because of the sin but because of its grief consequence.
    When Adam and Eve we're in Paradise, God gave them everything they would need to live perfect and in an incorruptible form. Also they didn't know everything since they were naked but their mind was pure enough to not think of that. So God wanted to give them the knowledge step by step. First step, He started with giving them a command. One simple tiny command which was not to eat from the tree of knowledge. Now after that they knew what to do and not to do. Now the devil came and tempted them by telling them you will be like God if you eat from the tree and disobey Him. The Devil here didn't lie but he said the truth. Now it was Eve's choice to not eat. But she eat, and than Adam ate, and they sinned by disobeying God's word. That's not it but they lied to Him after to.
    Now since they sinned, the wage of sin is death. And here death means that Hades' gates will be open and Paradise will be closed. So who ever dies after will go straight to Hades since there is no other place to go after.
    To understand what I have said above, you have to consider that our God is a just and merciful God.
    Some people think that as God said:

    Genesis 3:16-19
    To the woman He said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
    To Adam He said, "Because ... I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

    He wasn't actually punishing them or us but just telling them what will happen next. If you think about this for a moment, if Adam and Eve were still in Paradise, we would have been there to. Because God said "Be fruitful and multiply" that means that He gave them the ability to do that since He created them. Also when it said, "and he (Adam) will rule over you", isn’t that what was already. Adam was the head of Eve at the time.
    So God really didn’t punish us for disobeying Him, but we brought to ourselves the death and the corruption. And that would be there until the day which our Lord Jesus came and broke the gates of Hades and brought the worthy out and opened the doors of Paradise again.

    [quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=5028.msg68054#msg68054 date=1172571171]
    Then all these generations of daughters and sons sinned further (including current generations).

    Again, it's not the sin but its consequence.
  • spr418spr418
    Its not that big of a deal as mark said last week..its just like when two parents are fighting and they have a child in the house that didn't do anything but they yell at him and all that for no reason..thats the same way it is with us..not every question can be answered.

    GBU
    sandra
  • Gods kidGods kid
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5028.msg68057#msg68057 date=1172598512]

    He wasn't actually punishing them or us but just telling them what will happen next. If you think about this for a moment, if Adam and Eve were still in Paradise, we would have been there to. Because God said "Be fruitful and multiply" that means that He gave them the ability to do that since He created them. Also when it said, "and he (Adam) will rule over you", isn’t that what was already. Adam was the head of Eve at the time.
    So God really didn’t punish us for disobeying Him, but we brought to ourselves the death and the corruption. And that would be there until the day which our Lord Jesus came and broke the gates of Hades and brought the worthy out and opened the doors of Paradise again.


    Where in the Bible does it say that Adam was the head of Eve at the time?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Gods kid link=topic=5028.msg68074#msg68074 date=1172638050]
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5028.msg68057#msg68057 date=1172598512]

    He wasn't actually punishing them or us but just telling them what will happen next. If you think about this for a moment, if Adam and Eve were still in Paradise, we would have been there to. Because God said "Be fruitful and multiply" that means that He gave them the ability to do that since He created them. Also when it said, "and he (Adam) will rule over you", isn’t that what was already. Adam was the head of Eve at the time.
    So God really didn’t punish us for disobeying Him, but we brought to ourselves the death and the corruption. And that would be there until the day which our Lord Jesus came and broke the gates of Hades and brought the worthy out and opened the doors of Paradise again.


    Where in the Bible does it say that Adam was the head of Eve at the time?


    For the fact that she come out of him, that means he is the head of her.
    As it says here:

    Genesis 2:22-23
    Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man."

    That doesn't lower the women’s manner in church or anything because of them, in a family, they perfect each other. That's why they become one in marriage because the bible comes back and says:

    Genesis 2:24
    For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

    The one flesh that refers back to the origin of humanity, one flesh.

    Another thing is that when they sinned, who God asked if they did, He asked Adam who was at the time responsible for Eve. That's why some fathers say that it was kind of a harder sin towards Adam because he let Eve eat from the tree. Not directly of course.
  • Gods kidGods kid
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5028.msg68087#msg68087 date=1172691703]
    For the fact that she come out of him, that means he is the head of her.



    Do you mean that because Adam was in the Garden of Eden first and knew what was going on, that he may have had a little more authority at the time, because he had been there longer and knew the place?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Gods kid link=topic=5028.msg68095#msg68095 date=1172706149]
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5028.msg68087#msg68087 date=1172691703]
    For the fact that she come out of him, that means he is the head of her.



    Do you mean that because Adam was in the Garden of Eden first and knew what was going on, that he may have had a little more authority at the time, because he had been there longer and knew the place?


    not fully . please read the verse again.
  • spr418spr418

    Why did we all have to suffer because of Adam’s sin?


    Adam and Eve dared to commit a great sin. They allowed their minds and senses to engage in pride, deception, and disobedience. Given the opportunity to repent, they attempted to conceal their sins. They knew very well that their sentence would be death. Removed from paradise, they conceived and bore children while in captivity. How could children born in bondage enjoy a return to paradise? God's great mercy was immediately revealed even before Adam and Eve were sentenced. He established a plan for the deliverance of all humanity: God alone would ultimately suffer for Adam and his belligerent children (Genesis 1-3).


    If anybody of us was Adam or Eve, he would have committed the same sin, so we suffer because all of us are sinners!


    Consider St. Paul's words to the Romans 8:18-25:

    "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors together until now. Not only that, but we also have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance."   

    Perseverance for us is connected to faith, hope, and love. We, the children of Adam, can joyfully contend to be the children of God. Each day the church tells us the stories of the temporary sufferings and death of many saints remarking on their joyful existence despite the difficult circumstances they faced. Their faces were radiant and they sang hymns of victory as they were exposed to brutal attacks. Even nobles delighted in trading in their worldly luxury for the rugged mountains, wilderness, deserts, and caves for their love for God. These are stories of celebration.

    hey mary..this is H.G. bishop yousiff's answer to that question!

    GBu
    sandra
  • Gods kidGods kid
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5028.msg68087#msg68087 date=1172691703]
    For the fact that she come out of him, that means he is the head of her.
    As it says here:

    Genesis 2:22-23
    Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man."



    So you think that because she was taken from him, he is her head?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Gods kid link=topic=5028.msg68112#msg68112 date=1172716340]
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5028.msg68087#msg68087 date=1172691703]
    For the fact that she come out of him, that means he is the head of her.
    As it says here:

    Genesis 2:22-23
    Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man."



    So you think that because she was taken from him, he is her head?


    i know so because of this:

    Ephesians 5:22-6:3
    Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; And He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
    (Part of the Pauline Epistle in weddings)

    is that good enough.....??!!!
  • Gods kidGods kid
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5028.msg68113#msg68113 date=1172716569]
    [quote author=Gods kid link=topic=5028.msg68112#msg68112 date=1172716340]
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5028.msg68087#msg68087 date=1172691703]
    For the fact that she come out of him, that means he is the head of her.
    As it says here:

    Genesis 2:22-23
    Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man."



    So you think that because she was taken from him, he is her head?


    i know so because of this:

    Ephesians 5:22-6:3
    Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; And He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
    (Part of the Pauline Epistle in weddings)

    is that good enough.....??!!!



    I'm not going to go into that right now because it would deviate too much from the original topic of the thread, but you have to read the entire chapter to get the big picture.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Gods kid link=topic=5028.msg68114#msg68114 date=1172716911]
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5028.msg68113#msg68113 date=1172716569]
    i know so because of this:

    Ephesians 5:22-6:3
    Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; And He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
    (Part of the Pauline Epistle in weddings)

    is that good enough.....??!!!



    I'm not going to go into that right now because it would deviate too much from the original topic of the thread, but you have to read the entire chapter to get the big picture.


    lol, i knew it was going to lead to this..... :D ::) ::) ::).
    that's why at my first reply i included:

    [quote author=minagir link=topic=5028.msg68087#msg68087 date=1172691703]
    That doesn't lower the women's manner in church or anything because of them, in a family, they perfect each other. That's why they become one in marriage because the bible comes back and says:

    Genesis 2:24
    For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

    The one flesh that refers back to the origin of humanity, one flesh.


    i know what you're trying to say Gods kid but i just answered your question which was:

    [quote author=Gods kid link=topic=5028.msg68095#msg68095 date=1172706149]
    Do you mean that because Adam was in the Garden of Eden first and knew what was going on, that he may have had a little more authority at the time, because he had been there longer and knew the place?


    and didn't get in any other things!!
  • Unknown
    Sorry to interfere with the off topic, but I am more keen to say that before their fall, Adam and Eve were more or less completely equal (alike). Please correct me if I am wrong.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=5028.msg68233#msg68233 date=1173129375]
    Sorry to interfere with the off topic, but I am more keen to say that before their fall, Adam and Eve were more or less completely equal (alike). Please correct me if I am wrong.


    well u can say that since no one cared. they were living in a empty place where they just enjoyed their life. they didn't even know whats bad or wrong and they were so pure and so taken care of, that they just didn't think about matters much.
  • Unknown
    This is so much related to purgatory. Isnt it!?

    There is a logic in this question: we are paying the price for something our fore-father has committed? Right?
    Wrong - Christ had paid that price for us. The penalty of sin is death. He put that law, and subjected Himself to law He put in place. Rather than us die, He died for us. For the sin that Adam had committed.

    Thinking that we pay the price for Adam's sins is taht we are living the consequences of his sins. Yes. But not the price. The price was death. But Christ changed this punishment into our salvation (i think that's even in the Gregorian liturgy).

    Can someone continue this, and direct the answer towards the concept of purgatory. Its so related!! That purgatory attempts to say that we are in fact MEANT to pay a price for our sins DESIPITE Christ's blood being shed (WHICH IS WRONG (obviously!)!).

    I have a theory still that the consequences of sin (as well as the consequences of virtues) are passed onto generations. What you have done to others, happens to your offspring. But this is a side topic; and its more of a passing thought than even an opinion.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5028.msg68247#msg68247 date=1173174745]
    This is so much related to purgatory. Isnt it!?

    i don't think this is related in any way. purgatory: a place or state of punishment wherein according to Roman Catholic doctrine the souls of those who die in God's grace may make satisfaction for past sins and so become fit for heaven.

    Paradise on the other hand, was the place which God created for men to live in and enjoy. Since men sinned, they are not allowed in it anymore until the One who would remit that sin. Which was Jesus Christ who opened the doors of Paradise again. Now Paradise is the waiting place to heaven.

    There is a logic in this question: we are paying the price for something our fore-father has committed? Right?
    Wrong - Christ had paid that price for us. The penalty of sin is death. He put that law, and subjected Himself to law He put in place. Rather than us die, He died for us. For the sin that Adam had committed.

    i don't think they view it that way. i think they say purgatory is for the ppl who commit the daily sins not the big big sins. now if you think about it, they're saparating sins and making their own punishments. we all know that the wage of sin is death, but they say yes, but some sins deserve purgatory. which have no prove in the bible whatsoever.


    I have a theory still that the consequences of sin (as well as the consequences of virtues) are passed onto generations. What you have done to others, happens to your offspring. But this is a side topic; and its more of a passing thought than even an opinion.

    that's not a theory, that's what happend.
  • Unknown
    Thanks Mina.

    My apologies, im thinking too much about how to answer purgatory... and all the angles around it.

    Laters,

    ps

    Do u realise that sometimes when u quote me, the quote is given but the explanation is in fact empty? I think u may have pressed CTRL Z (undo by accident).
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5028.msg68251#msg68251 date=1173193763]
    Thanks Mina.

    My apologies, im thinking too much about how to answer purgatory... and all the angles around it.

    Laters,

    ps

    Do u realise that sometimes when u quote me, the quote is given but the explanation is in fact empty? I think u may have pressed CTRL Z (undo by accident).


    really, how??!! i most of the time reread what i wrote.
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