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me and my friends debate about this a lot...
does the Coptic Church have anything against boys piercing their ears or growing their hair long??
opinions would be appreciated!!
opinions would be appreciated!!
Comments
As far as I know, the Church frowns upon this sort of thing.
Please pray for me.
does the Coptic Church have anything against boys piercing their ears or growing their hair long??
opinions would be appreciated!!
this can help: Tattoos/Piercing
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
As far as I know, the Church frowns upon this sort of thing.
Please pray for me.
but do you know why???
if you are His temple, why would you distroy it.??!!
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5105.msg68661#msg68661 date=1173988968]
1 Corinthians 6:19Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
if you are His temple, why would you distroy it.??!!
Well then, that begs the question: are women destroying the temple of God by growing their hair and piercing their ears?
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5105.msg68661#msg68661 date=1173988968]
1 Corinthians 6:19Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
if you are His temple, why would you distroy it.??!!
Well then, that begs the question: are women destroying the temple of God by growing their hair and piercing their ears?
well heir is a natrul part of our human body that God gave us. that's for women.
man who live in the world have to be carful because they don't have a reason to grow it. other like clergy men can grow facial hair.
for ear piercing, i'll get back to you on this one. thoo i think a small 1 pierce in the ear for a woman to wear and earning have nothign wrong. it doesn't defile the body in anyway. not physicly or spiritually.
same to boys but boys do not have a reason to have any pierces......give me one if so.
I think its really good that u ask at least. Now, a man wearing an earing was never heard of in the west even until a few years ago. It was as if there was a revolution where what was frowned upon could be broken in the name of fashion and freedom of expression.
Right? U agree?
But I just attended a meeting in France on the French Reveloution and Christianity. I found it quite interesting actually. One person said something that I'll never forget. In the French Revolution, the 14th of July, they killed the King and set free all the prisoners. There was no longer any control. All of France celebrates this day - EXCEPT devout catholics.
Now, what i found interesting was this: The FIRST EVER Revolutionist was satan. Did he , or did he not, pursuade Adam and Eve to do something wrong in the name of advancement? His brand of advancement for them was their perish. It was deception. It was retaliation against God. A revolt against His Holy Commandments, and Him!! Was this not a public revolt against God??
If your family (your parents) and those who are holy to you (your priest and your Church), and Holy in the eyes of God frown upon you doing ANYTHING, you going against their will is a revolt.
Believe me, i just wish to remind u that on the 14th of July, France celebrates that they barbarically executed their noble king and queen. They executed anyone who was known to be "frowning" at anything remotely immoral. THey freed immoral people in the streets. This was a revolution, and from this, the destruction of the Catholic Church in France. After this day, no longer could the word of the RC Church have value in France.
I guess when u were reading this, u were saying to yourself, WHAT DOES THIS SUBJECT HAVE TO DO WITH THE FRENCH REVOLUTION!??
Hhaha.. yes, i surprise myself sometimes.
Allow me to play devil's advocate if I may (and please bear in mind, this is just an expression, not meant to be taken literally):
What reason, aside from the fact that it enhances a woman's appearance, do women have to grow their hair and not men? Some men look good with long hair as well, so if it's based solely on appearance, why the double standard? (Please note: I am not advocating that men do in fact grow their hair, i'm just simply raising the question.) Well, if one piercing does not defile the body for women, why isn't this the case for men also? The only reason, I can think of, that women wear earrings is to, once again, enhance their beauty. One could argue that this is the case for men. Other than that, there really is no reason why women should wear earrings either.
Please pray for me.
What was wrong with my response?!!!!!
To be honest, I don't see how your post about the French Revolution is in anyway related to the discussion. But, that's just me. And if you really want to get technical, Satan's first revolution pre-dates the creation of Adam and Eve, when he and a third of the heavenly hosts rebelled against God as a result of Satan's pride and wanting to elevate himself to the level of God.
Please pray for me.
[coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]
To be honest, I don't see how your post about the French Revolution is in anyway related to the discussion. But, that's just me. And if you really want to get technical, Satan's first revolution pre-dates the creation of Adam and Eve, when he and a third of the heavenly hosts rebelled against God as a result of Satan's pride and wanting to elevate himself to the level of God.
Please pray for me.
Man, I made the association! THe 1st public revolution (with Satan as the revolutionist) was in the garden of Eden!
Im saying that wearing an earing for men, started as an act of liberty: a rebellion, a revolt against what society held as "normal" . There is a link here with the attitude of revolting against what was given to us by those who are holy. In the case of adam 'n eve, they revolted against God. With wearing an earing: there is a revolt against your parents, the church, and abouna!!
Listen jack, im trying to take u in to a deeper level, i need u to be more flexible... can u? can u be more flexible??
Otherwise, u'll be missing out.
Yalla... read what i said again, and come back to me when u have been enlightened.
God bless u my children.
Please pray for me.
Im sorry also you failed to see the association that I mentioned. To me it made sense.
As for saying "God bless you my Children" , ya3ni.. God bless u, and you are like my children. All egyptians say that.
Are you saying piercing your body and growing your hair (for guys) is revolting against "your family (your parents) and those who are holy to you (your priest and your Church)". I would like to ask you, why it's revolting in the first place? Is that a theological or canonical issue? Or is it as Saint Paul says “23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify.” (1 Corinthians 10:23) and “Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.” (Romans 14:22)?
But on the other hand, he also says “Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.
It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.” (Romans 14:20-21)
I would side with Κηφᾶς, and ask why the double standard? Because it baffles me too!
Can anyone answer me that?
May God Bless your Lent.
I just saw an association between the two. I can see it as revolting against your parents and the Church... if u can't see that, then i guess we're from two different backgrounds.
Pray for me
Physical appearance does not matter in God's eyes. He accepted the adultress, the right hand theif and he did not look at how they were. many of youth at my church (males) that have long hair, or even earings. We also have girls that have nose peircings. I went a month ago to St Anthony monastery here in Californis, and the monk saw this teenage girl that had so many pircings in her face, he held her by her ear (in a joking manner) and told her why did she do that, or why does she need all these peircings, they are not necessary, the girl was kinda embaressed. As i was watching this, i thought t myself: even though i don't like how the girl had all these peircings but at the same time she might be more righteous than me in God's eyes. I think this concept is not accepted in our culture. How come we are used to see Jesus' picture with long hair and don't accept to see a friend with long hair. This topic can go both ways, but this is my opinion.
Pray for me
I used to see pictures of apostles etc wearing long robes - i can't imagine that today.
Listen, there was a certain fashion at the time of our lord, and this has died out.
My point is this, regardless of fashion, if someone does something therefore , even if its an expression of fashion, that still goes against their parent's wishes, is this not a revolt and an act of revolution? And did i not explain that Satan was the 1st revolutionist?
The church doesn't like tattoos and stuff like that at all except for these little crosses on your right hand, which show your dedication to our Lord.
Here are some verses from the Bible:
Lev. 19:28
'Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks on you: I am the Lord'
You'll find the same message in Lev. 21: 5:
'They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.'
He is here talking about His ppl, the Israelians. When they got out of Egypt, they ought to behave no more as slaves, but as the children of the King. And the slaves were known (in that time) by the way they did their hair and by their tattoos.
So ,we have to behave also as children of Christ, the real King. Have you ever seen a prince or a princess wearing piercings all over their faces? No, and that's because they're different from the ordinary ppl. And so are we.
Deut. 14
1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. 2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
And by the way don't forget that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit (Cor. 6:19), and you have to return it as beautiful as you got it. When you borrow a book at the library and you return it with ripped pages, notes of your own etc, you have to pay a fine, right?
Also take a look at Ex. 21, very interesting, about how the Israelians did to their own slaves from their own people.
GB
Not to mention even the two sides of the argument: if men can't "destroy" their bodies by tattoo's or piercings, then the same goes for women. On the other hand i would argue that (concerning things like modest tatoo's or piercings) all is holy for the holy, and everything is lawfull for me. In other words, if the intention is pure and holy then i'm free to do anything.
umm well, ok it IS frowned on when women don't grow their hair out. and women aren't spposed to have braids or wear jewelry either or peirce their ears BT BUT BUT that has changed so much because it's now up to cultrue. the meaning of that is that u arent supposed to show off urself.. this is all women.
Corinthinas 11 (somewhere in the chapter in the very beginning) says that man ought nOt to cover his head, since he is the glory of God. Then this is said:
"Judge among youselves. (so it is up to you, but keep reading.) Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him. But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is GIVEN to her for a covering. But if anyone sems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of god."
1 Cor. 11: 13 thro 16
so basically, woman have long hair and it was given to them like that so it shoudl be kept that way... but men are different... the church doesnt want them to have long hair... also, i forgot to add this but before these verses.. there is a verse that says that women should not sahve their head...
for piercings, as i said earlier, it is up to culture but is preferable that men do not have piercings... girls are not to have peircins all over the body... just ears perferably. their noses, lips, eyes, eyebrows, stomachs, or anywhere else.. is like... one its gross looking, and two ... DO U NEED IT? would u enter the church like that? would st. mary enter the church like that? NO she wouldnt... so girls aren't suppposed to have things on their noses, and what not...
everyone's posts had a very good verse... the verse about us being the temple of god, but there is another one yet that is used in this case.
"All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify."
1 Corinthinas 10:23
there is a similar verse in ch. 6 i tink it is verse 12... it is the same but says that u should not be brought under the power of any...
i don't know if ive helped, but here is a quick summary
1. women should not shave their heads
2. women were given long hair to cover it
3. when u do things, use st mary as an exampe and jesus and think about not showing off ur looks
4. men arent supposed to grow out their hair
5. men shouldnt get pericings at all
6. women shouldn't get TOO many show-offish piercings.. simply the ears but this is a cultural thing.. but its perferable, to look nice in the church...
that's all i realy have to say. im glad thit this question was brought up, but it is a little debatable. ur best asnwer maybe should come from ur father of confession, but i hope i helpd a little...
god bless
pray for me please
p.s. tasbeha.org is not meant to be a place for ppl to fight
Btw, what do you mean by things have changed?
Mt. 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
And honey, things may change as much as they want to, our Church will always have the same principles and standards. Our Church has been teh same for 2000 years.
It's teh people that wants to change, and I liked vassilios' view on this: Hos Erof: I can't see how growing your hair would benefit you spiritually, unless youre going to do as Pope Kyrollos VI. He grew his hair for a reason.
I don't see long hair for boys as a bad thing though, in Egypt Abouna can tell deacons not to wear for that reason.
For piercing you ears, I REALLY dont see how it benefits, for girls it's a cultural thing, for boys it is, as allready said, the need to be against every higher instantion.
GB
it's going against higher instantion exactly because it's due to cultural norms and values. That proves the point that piercing the ears isn't evil in itself but is condemned in certain cultures. Just like alcohol is not evil in itself, or dancing is not evil in itself.
a: suppose someone gets a small cross tattoo on his wrist...is this right or wrong?
b: suppose someone gets a big cross tattoo on his arm...is this right or wrong?
maybe person A wants a tattoo for the sake of having a tattoo and to show off , while person b wants the big tattoo out of his love for God! I think this proves that intention is the factor that decides whether something is good and beneficial or not. We can't make a general judgement, only a general rule: All is lawfull, but not all is beneficial! Not everything we do in life will benefit us spiritually, and that is not wrong.
-matt-
Besides, you answer yourself : And whyyyyyyyy would you do anything that doesn't benefit you?
Exactly. To show that you're different and extraordinary. And that's not the humble spirit we ought to have as a christian.
But this is not a general. I can't see everyone's intention ofcourse, and who am I to judge?
It's just my view.
The point about revolution...Taken!
However, we do not follow the Jewish laws of the Old Testament; they simply do not apply to us, except when their benefit carries on to Christianity. Why don’t we get circumcised any more? Why don’t we treat mould the way it is taught in numbers? Why don’t we offer blood sacrifices? Why don’t we celebrate the Passover like God told Moses?
But for the rule about women covering their heads in church, well that’s Saint Paul’s teaching so we have to follow it.
CopticChica21 and others talked about what’s allowed and what’s not. Who says? And by what authority?
I would argue that the body is the temple of God, and hence we should treat it with respect, but as to why women are allowed to pierce their ears and men not, I don’t know? Do men disrespect the temple of God by piercing their ears more than women do?
If my FOC told me that piercing is not allowed for guys, I’d follow him as to be obedient, but no one has yet answered to why the double standards exist?!
You told me the ‘what’, now tell me the ‘why’.
what is your Grace's opinion concerning tattooing?
Is it true that it is a sign of permanent enslavement (Exodus 21 5-6)?
Why do we accept ear piercing?
the Holy Bible mentions that ear piercing is a sign of a slave who has devoted himself permanently to his master.
the question is: who is your master?
St.Paul says, "or do you not know that your boby is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you" (1 Cor.6:19)
our body is inhabited by the Holy Spirit.
Therefore it belongs to God and we have no right to damage it in any way through piercing, tattooing, smoking, drinking, etc.
our duty is to keep it pure and holy as our Lord wants us to be.
in the Holy Book of Leviticus 21:5, we read, "they shall not make tonsures upon their heads, nor shave off the edges of their beards, nor make any cutings in their flesh."
it is enough that you have your ears pierced which is more customary than biblical; you do not need to pierce other parts of your body because of fashion.
what is the message you would be sending to those around you? as soon as this fashion disappears, you will not feel at ease having your nose pierced.
i hope you keep the words of the Holy Spirit in your heart and be in the image of Christ a role model to those around you "and do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God"
Make-up for men exists. Why doesn't any man want to wear that? It isn't forbidden by Church or anything...
So why would you like you ears pierced as a guy?
Look, it's just the culture we are raised in. If you liked to wear to wear make-up, long hair and piercings in a Western country, no one will stop you. We, as Egyptians, just find it odd.
Its not in your culture, nor identity, don't do it. You'll be trying to be something you're not. Also, if its going against your parent's wishes - then definately this has to be respected.
Remember, it says to "Honour thy father and mother" in the Bible (as a Commandment even!)- if such an action could embarras them in their communities, then surely, such things is not from God; but from the devil as it goes against this Commandment.
If you are doing it as an act of revolt (i.e.. rebellion or revolution against your family, or culture, or Church), then i clearly expressed the association between rebellion and the devil : who was the 1st revolutionary. I didnt really come up with it, someone told me. im just surprised why you cannot see the association??