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1 John 5:7

contramondocontramondo
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
hi

have u heared any things or arguements on ... [ 1 John 5:7 ]

5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

there is a huge arguements on this verse ... they say that this verse is not exist in the very old bibles
i`ve seen lots of site orthodox nd cotholic nd scientists of the bible and theology that only talk on this topic
they saying that this verse does not exist in the old greece scriptures and nowdays italian and french bible don`t have this verse too .. bcoz they scripted it from another old scripture that is more correct than our original script
nd now , in the newer versions of the holy bible they deleted this verse ... NIV versions

nd also they r saying that n old patrology ... fathers who had arguements on the trinity didn`t include this verse in their arguements although, this is one of the clearest verses that explain the trinity .. those father like St, Athanasius - St, Tertullian - St, Cyprian - St. Jerom - St. Augustine and others.

so, is this verse truely exist or not ?
nd what is the meaning of ( bear record in heaven ) ???

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=contramondo link=topic=5126.msg68861#msg68861 date=1174401467]
    hi

    have u heared any things or arguements on ... [ 1 John 5:7 ]

    5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

    there is a huge arguements on this verse ... they say that this verse is not exist in the very old bibles
    i`ve seen lots of site orthodox nd cotholic nd scientists of the bible and theology that only talk on this topic
    they saying that this verse does not exist in the old greece scriptures and nowdays italian and french bible don`t have this verse too .. bcoz they scripted it from another old scripture that is more correct than our original script
    nd now , in the newer versions of the holy bible they deleted this verse ... NIV versions

    nd also they r saying that n old patrology ... fathers who had arguements on the trinity didn`t include this verse in their arguements although, this is one of the clearest verses that explain the trinity .. those father like St, Athanasius - St, Tertullian - St, Cyprian - St. Jerom - St. Augustine and others.

    so, is this verse truely exist or not ?
    nd what is the meaning of ( bear record in heaven ) ???


    in the NKJV, which is translated from the original language it says:
    7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

    now latter i'll try to find the coptic text which is one of the main translations of the bible.
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    You may find this article interesting.

    Please pray for me.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5126.msg68865#msg68865 date=1174407000]
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    You may find this article interesting.

    Please pray for me.


    wow, i guess that's another good reason for us to use the NKJV.
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    While Wikipedia is by no means an authority, it does have an interesting article about 1 John 5:7 here.

    Please pray for me.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5126.msg68867#msg68867 date=1174410104]
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    While Wikipedia is by no means an authority, it does have an interesting article about 1 John 5:7 here.

    Please pray for me.


    they say that the coptic translation doesn't have it but am not sure if that is true. also this part is listed in the translation of the arabic bible. the one from the bible socioty of egypt which is translated from the original manuscripts which here are the original greek.
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    Truth be told, I have also heard that 1 John 5:7 was a later interpolation into the text.  Even if that were true, our faith in the Trinity would not change.  If 1 John 5:7 is authentic, then that is great, it just reinforces the concept of the Trinity.  If it is not authentic, it doesn't change anything at all.  The Trinity is still a reality, and there are sufficient other verses in the Bible to back it up.

    Please pray for me.
  • contramondocontramondo
    but the question here , is this is the only verse that has incorporated in the text ... nd then how is the bible being protected against such things permit changes to be done even if it is by accident ?

    nd how did Samaan El Sheikh , when he was intending to replace just one word the holy spirit prevented him, so why didn`t the holy spirit prevent such things ?

    nd actually i still cann`t understand what is the meaning of [ bears record ] in the verse .. plz explain ... thnx
  • Unknown
    In the Greek manuscripts officially approved by the Byzantine Church, this passage appears in brackets I believe.
  • HolmesHolmes
    [coptic]+ Iryny nem `hmot>[/coptic]

    [quote author=contramondo link=topic=5126.msg68910#msg68910 date=1174514424]
    but the question here , is this is the only verse that has incorporated in the text ... nd then how is the bible being protected against such things permit changes to be done even if it is by accident ?

    As far as I know, this isn't the only case of a verse being incorporated into the text.  In the case of Mark's Gospel, some of the oldest texts available do not contain verses 9-20 in chapter 16.  It is widely believed that those verses were also added in later after the Gospel had been completed.  The fact of the matter is, the Bible as a unit does not change in any way as a result of these interpolations.  If you take them out or leave them in, them overall message of the Bible remains the same.  That is what is important.  The message of Salvation that God has offered mankind throughout history culminating with the coming of the Logos of God.

    nd how did Samaan El Sheikh , when he was intending to replace just one word the holy spirit prevented him, so why didn`t the holy spirit prevent such things ?

    I'm not familiar with this story.  Do you have a reference?

    nd actually i still cann`t understand what is the meaning of [ bears record ] in the verse .. plz explain ... thnx

    "bears record" is synonymous with saying 'bears witness'.  The 3 persons of the Trinity bear witness for each other is what, I believe, St. John is talking about. 

    Please pray for me.
  • [Deleted User]
    i believe the story is that of simon the elder. the one who held the lord in temple. we read this in the compline prayers. the story goes that he was transcribing a book of prophecy and came upon a verse that said something to this effect "the virgin will bear a son" he saw this as illogical. and sought to change virgin to woman, when the holy spirit prevented him, and told him that will not die until he sees this virgin who will bear a son.
    i'm not sure about this, but i believe simon the elder was related to st. mary in some way.
  • Anglican
    Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

    Some very interesting observations here, and the articles suggested are great; anyone with questions should go there and have them answered.

    The discussion is a good one and shows up the limitations of the Protestant way of looking at these things. The real question is whether the passage represents the teaching of the Church, and as we have already been told, it most certainly does.

    We have no idea whether the early surviving manuscripts came from Arian sources or not, and the notion that just because they are old they are definitive is a very Protestant way of looking at these things. They could easily be from an Arian source, which would mean that it would be the modern, modified versions, which would be incorrect.

    We are not bibliolaters, we do not worship the Bible; we worship the Triune God. The Bible came out of the life of the early Church, and it has always to be read with the teaching and tradition of the Church. The contested passage is consonant with the teaching of the Orthodox Church - which is what matters to us.

    One of the many great things about being part of the Orthodox Church is that if God is Our Father, the Church is our mother - and as good children, we learn from them both.

    In Christ,

    John
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