[quote author=Lover of the father link=topic=5167.msg69297#msg69297 date=1175613640] What is the best way to fight Self-Righteousness and to achieve the virtue of humility
Always think and know that you are a servant of God and of His people, meaning everyone else.
I'm going to modify what Mina said a bit, if I may.
Always think and know that you are a child of God, but never forget that you are a sinner and that you are not worthy of such an honour. This is an honour that has been bestowed upon you out of God's infinite love. Your sins are what drive a wedge and hinder you from achieving the potential that God has for you, and remembering that will keep you humble.
Being righteous is ok, but self righteousness is wrong. It comes from knowing you are good. The fruits of such a spirit is one that is far from a contrite heart. After all, why should you feel contrite? You have done nothing wrong (and u know it).
To combat this is so easy: Do you think it is because you are good that you do good deeds, or is it because of God's grace?
Is it because you are an amazing person that you haven't commited a heinous sin, or is it because of God's grace?
Do you love others because you are a loveable guy, or is it because of God's grace that helps you to love?
If the answers to the above questions are :"because of God's grace" then this will remind you that really, no matter what we do, without God's grace in our life, we will truley fail.
Remember also the phrase of Saint Paul :" I can do everything, IN THE LORD, who gives me strength".
That knowing that your strength comes from Him, is not just the key to humility and combatting self righteousness, not at all... its the truth also. If you wish, (just ask) and i can give you many examples..
Its true that we are all sinners - who amongst us is perfect? But for example; there are monks who are saints and still say they are sinners.. but what sin did they DO?! These monks COULD be severely tempted and attacked by thinking that they are self-righteous. So, to keep on saying: "Im a sinner, im a sinner.. im not righteous"... yet HAVING NO SIN IN YOUR HEART really that youve done wrong, and FINDING sins that you havent really done is damaging to your self esteem. If you havent sinned - BELIEVE ME, ITS BECAUSE OF GOD's GRACE, not because you're a good person. Let me give u an example, because I KNOW people will always attack what i say.. so i wish to be 110% clear:
Yesterday, in the metro in Paris, a homeless man went on a train and accidentally shoved his backpack in the face of a man sitting down. It was an accident. When the man complained, the homeless man started screaming at him, swearing at him, he was aggressive and violent at this poor old man sitting down. Now, we can look ourselves and say :"Well.. thank God im not like that begger" - but the thing is, it wasnt my choice in my life that led me to NOT being homeless. i never Chose the parents i had. So, its not by my own cleverness or good nature that I can say i haven't sinnned; its because of God's grace. Had i had the SAME fate in life as this begger, who knows what kind of man i'd be?
nicely put vassilios, although i think the virtue of humility, though put on paper seems to be very simple, in practise is exptreamly hard to pertain. i know for a fact that the salvation of many monks have been disollusion due to the lack of upholding the virtue of humility.
as coptic teenagers in this day and error, i happen to see the virtue of humility much more easier to practise when i compare myself with friends who are spiritually higher than myself. as i happen to be 'happy' becusae of a certain virtue i think i have mastered, i take a glimpse of my friends (who are well advanced in the virtue region than i am) and remind myself, that there is always imporvement. God deserves more and that what i do is nothing compared to what he deserves and to what he receives by other TEENAGERS from the same ae, same era, sae background, same parents, even same church.
although i know many will dis-agree with my method, this in my opinion is an efficient way to combat the sin of pride and to attain humility.
I don't like it actually when i hear copts saying and preaching "You are all sinners, you are not worthy.. do not forget you are a sinner" to make people realise the value of God's love, and that they need to be saved. This is a very mean and cruel way, that lowers people's self esteem for NO REASON. If you haven't sinned, depressing yourself over something you haven't done is unholy, and a LIE. And ANY LIE is wrong.
here's the proof: Father Tadros Malaty SAID to us :"LEARN FROM SAINT MARY IN HUMILITY!!"
So, my proof will come from Saint Mary:
We say about her :"O pure, without sin, virtuous and great in everything, saint in Everything, O you who presented to us Christ, bearing Him upon your arms" (This is the 1st verse of T-Atsolep Ensemeh - if u are a tasbeha guru...)...
What SIN did Saint Mary commit in her life?!!! What ONE thing WRONG did she do? Yet we are all sinners needing salvation. Yet she was humble, and full of humility.
Telling yourself :"Im a sinner, im a sinner, BECAUSE you are worried about being self righteous iS SICKENING!!! Because it means the following: a) ITS FALSE HUMILITY. You are lying even to yourself. If you were really a sinner, you'd never have said that about yourself that "you are a sinner" .Then what sin did you do? If you have sinned, therefore, REPENT FOR IT, and repentance for your sins will result in a contrite and broken spirit.
b) But to tell yourself you are a sinner, and that you are not worthy ONLY to avoid being self righteous, it means you have the arrogance to consider yourself NOT a sinner, and its an excuse to use to make you believe that you are "normal" , which means DEEP DOWN IN YOUR HEART, YOU THINK A LOT OF YOURSELF. THat makes me sick.
c) ITS ALL FALSE HUMILITY.
d) ITS HYPOCRISY.
We are all sinners; therefore, if I haven't sinned, its through GOD'S GRACE that i havent sinned, because I know that by my own nature, my own human weak nature, that I'm PRONE to sin. Its as if its in my blood.
Its through HIS GRACE that i did not sin, not because i'm holy or divine, or i was born an angel.
Its like people on tasbeha.org who always say "Pray for me" at the end of their messages. I can't stand that. ITS FALSE HUMILITY. It reminds me of some guy at CHurch.. he used to walk around saying "pray for me, pray for me... pray for me... acting all holy and saintly" . One day, because i decided to do the tasbeha in English, he started swearing at me and my mother, and became VERY VERY AGGRESSIVE because he just wanted to do it in Coptic. This is the kind of question he'd ask "How can I avoid being self righteous?" HAHAHAHHAHA. But he wouldnt say "pray for me" as if he needed prayers... he say it as if he was saying "pray to me, pray to me, i'm worthy of your prayers".
Pray for yourself!!
Let me explain POINT a) above:
Let's say i just slept with 10 prostitutes. OK? I log in to tasbeha.org, and see what's going on. Do YOU HONESTLY THINK i'd say "pray for me, i'm a sinner? " I'd keep it quiete! I'd confess it, i'd repent for it, i'd be ashamed perhaps... but if i DID do something DREADFULLY sinful, why go around and say "pray for me, i'm a sinner"... its PERSONAL! ITS PRIVATE. But you say it to people u don't know "PRAY FOR ME".. so what sin did you do? If u did do a sin, and are SO WORRIED and ASHAMED about your actions, YOU'D HAVE NO PROBLEMS BEING WORRIED ABOUT BEING SELF RIGHTEOUS!!!!! WOULD YOU!!???? But its all FALSE HUMILITY!!! AND I HATE THAT!!
[quote author=why link=topic=5167.msg69327#msg69327 date=1175689530] nicely put vassilios, although i think the virtue of humility, though put on paper seems to be very simple, in practise is exptreamly hard to pertain. i know for a fact that the salvation of many monks have been disollusion due to the lack of upholding the virtue of humility.
as coptic teenagers in this day and error, i happen to see the virtue of humility much more easier to practise when i compare myself with friends who are spiritually higher than myself.
Why, i have to say this: Sayedna said (i forgot his name actually), in Saint Mark's in London, he said : NEVER COMPARE YOURSELF TO ANYONE. When saint paul said "Im the Chief of all sinners" - he wasnt comparing himself to his mother (in the words of sayedna!) - he was comparing himself to Jesus Christ.
Do not compare yourself spiritually to any human being. We tend to do this, but its wrong. I agree, i did the same, until i realised that the best bench mark to set myself against was Jesus Christ Himself. Not other human beings.
wooooh wooh vasillios firey matiie..lol i like your passion, although you slightly sidetracked i wasnt to just reiteate my ideas behind 'pray for me', i merely do it not becuause i want to show or tell people that 'look im humbly, im asking for prayrs' but becase i know the power of prayer, and that to receive the blessing of being mentioned in a prayer where someone says 'OLORD REMEMBER YOUR FAITHFUL SERVANT WHY' is such a great blessing i dont want to miss out. im sad to here that it irritates you.
however thats besides the point.
as you said, there is a GREATTT sermon on humility given by Fr. Anthony MEssih somewhere on www.orthodoxsermons.org where the priest makes it clear to us that humility is not merely and i quote " walking around with your head down telling yourself that you are bad' or 'when you have alot of people over and you make a big feast and then they say oh thanks for the food you made too much and then you say WHAT FOOD I MADE NOTHING (in arabic: akl eh, dah wala haga)'...that is NOT humility.
however he goes on to defining humility to be anunderstanding of your talent and abilities but it when YOUR TESTED that the virtue of hulity is being tested. example like that given by vassilios, when vassilios was being screamed at becasue he conducted the tasbeha in english, humility at this stage is where vasilios would apologise and say sorry i didnt realise/care about your/others prefrences. sorry about that, next time we will be sure to do it the prefered way. PRAY FOR ME :P (ok that last part was put in as a tease
anyways it is times and tests like these that the true virtue of humility is shown through man.
pls pls try look up this sermon ( i will try find it) and take a hear of it..it is toppppp stuff! maybe the best sermon i ever heard!
Lover of the Father, it will be the answer to your question!!
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5167.msg69333#msg69333 date=1175691984] [quote author=why link=topic=5167.msg69327#msg69327 date=1175689530] nicely put vassilios, although i think the virtue of humility, though put on paper seems to be very simple, in practise is exptreamly hard to pertain. i know for a fact that the salvation of many monks have been disollusion due to the lack of upholding the virtue of humility.
as coptic teenagers in this day and error, i happen to see the virtue of humility much more easier to practise when i compare myself with friends who are spiritually higher than myself.
Why, i have to say this: Sayedna said (i forgot his name actually), in Saint Mark's in London, he said : NEVER COMPARE YOURSELF TO ANYONE. When saint paul said "Im the Chief of all sinners" - he wasnt comparing himself to his mother (in the words of sayedna!) - he was comparing himself to Jesus Christ.
Do not compare yourself spiritually to any human being. We tend to do this, but its wrong. I agree, i did the same, until i realised that the best bench mark to set myself against was Jesus Christ Himself. Not other human beings.
oh so true vasillios, very true
HOWEVER i his dayand age, a visual comparison goes a long way..PERSONALLY!!!
once again i fully agree with what sayedna has said however although i try to follow his words, hearing the verese: be holy HOLY like I Am Holy is the first step to being acutally Holy, the next is to copy. although Jesus provided a great example for us to copy, there ae many instances in our time that did not come in jesus' life (mainly due to technologiccaladvances) thus, the way i resolve this is to look up to someone. this is usually your spiritual advisor whether it be an older friend or FOC or parent.
PERSONALLY this method altough once agan people disagree with it, i find to be effetive (and also, when i choose a figure,i choose a figure that represents the image of Christ, not just anyone..thats the diference)
I just wanna make ONE thing clear (out of honesty for myself) that what happened was this:
A woman told a bishop: Sayedna, i personally don't feel that Im the chief of all sinners. He said "Saint paul wasn't comparing himself to your mother, but comparing himself to Jesus Christ".
That's the exact story. I think what i wrote was just the jist or spirit of the conversation. Regardless, i hope it helps explain my point.
Why, I do the same thing. Im exactly the same. I cannot for the life of me, bear to stand next to someone homeless and talk to him or her .. they smell so bad, they can be rude... yet my friends do it EVERY day and just cope with it. (im looking at changing and working with handicaped people instead). Yes, i do look up to them, but what happens if they sin? What effect will that have on your spiritual life? Someone you regarded as holy, and a saint, and someone you once admired and was inspirational to you, what effect will that have if they do something wrong? We agreed, that its because of God's grace that I do not sin... not because i'm a good person. So, why do u idolise them?
I love being with Christians who practice their faith , as you tend to be amongst people who at least have respect for what you respect. But so what? You should benchmark yourself with Jesus Christ. not with anyone else.
Someone once called me a saint. At first, i thought "that's nice", then he kept on telling me the same thing.. i got kinda bored of it, but what really happened was this: "I said to myself :"I NEVER ASKED HIM TO CALL ME THAT... NOW IM SCARED TO BE MYSELF IN FRONT OF THIS MAN, OTHERWISE HE'll BE DISAPPOINTED!". lol hahahha Yeah.. he hasnt seen me do the tasbeha yet in English! Perhaps he should wait until that day before he calls me a saint again.
I don't like.. praising people like that... we are all equal actually. The danger of seeing others better than you is that you remove focus from yourself and your relationship with Christ.
[quote author=why link=topic=5167.msg69335#msg69335 date=1175692598] [quote author=vassilios link=topic=5167.msg69333#msg69333 date=1175691984] [quote author=why link=topic=5167.msg69327#msg69327 date=1175689530] nicely put vassilios, although i think the virtue of humility, though put on paper seems to be very simple, in practise is exptreamly hard to pertain. i know for a fact that the salvation of many monks have been disollusion due to the lack of upholding the virtue of humility.
as coptic teenagers in this day and error, i happen to see the virtue of humility much more easier to practise when i compare myself with friends who are spiritually higher than myself.
Why, i have to say this: Sayedna said (i forgot his name actually), in Saint Mark's in London, he said : NEVER COMPARE YOURSELF TO ANYONE. When saint paul said "Im the Chief of all sinners" - he wasnt comparing himself to his mother (in the words of sayedna!) - he was comparing himself to Jesus Christ.
Do not compare yourself spiritually to any human being. We tend to do this, but its wrong. I agree, i did the same, until i realised that the best bench mark to set myself against was Jesus Christ Himself. Not other human beings.
oh so true vasillios, very true
HOWEVER i his dayand age, a visual comparison goes a long way..PERSONALLY!!!
once again i fully agree with what sayedna has said however although i try to follow his words, hearing the verese: be holy HOLY like I Am Holy is the first step to being acutally Holy, the next is to copy. although Jesus provided a great example for us to copy, there ae many instances in our time that did not come in jesus' life (mainly due to technologiccaladvances) thus, the way i resolve this is to look up to someone. this is usually your spiritual advisor whether it be an older friend or FOC or parent.
PERSONALLY this method altough once agan people disagree with it, i find to be effetive (and also, when i choose a figure,i choose a figure that represents the image of Christ, not just anyone..thats the diference)
I don't like it actually when i hear copts saying and preaching "You are all sinners, you are not worthy.. do not forget you are a sinner" to make people realise the value of God's love, and that they need to be saved. This is a very mean and cruel way, that lowers people's self esteem for NO REASON. If you haven't sinned, depressing yourself over something you haven't done is unholy, and a LIE. And ANY LIE is wrong.
Whether you like to hear it or not, it is a reality. We are sinners and we should never forget that. Having said that, by God's grace and love, He as adopted us as His children which is a great honour, and something we should also not forget. It is a balance that we must keep and I find nothing wrong with focusing more on the fact that we are sinners. The monks do this. In fact, if you read the stories of all the great desert fathers, you will find this theme running through them. They constantly viewed themselves as unworthy and sinful and it had no effect on their self esteem. And it is not a lie to consider yourself a sinner. You were born in sin and have a corrupt nature, that is a reality. Thus, to view yourself as a sinner is not a lie, but the reality. You may think you are not sinning, but let's not forget what we say in the Thrice Holy prayer in the agpeya:
Holy Holy Holy. Lord of hosts. Heaven and earth are full of Your glory and honor. Have mercy on us, O God the Father, the Almighty O Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. O Lord, God of hosts, be with us. For we have no helper in our hardships and tribulations but You. Absolve, forgive, and remit, O God, our transgressions; those which we have committed willingly and those we have committed unwillingly, those which we have committed knowingly and those which we have committed unknowingly, the hidden and manifest, O Lord forgive us, for the sake of Your Holy name which is called upon us.
LOL Why, i just heard the sermon... this priest is really funny.. he's a bit hard to understand though...
Here's a summary:
a) You should be teachable - Learn from others (bingo why! And i share the same problem).
b) THere is false humility: "Im a sinner , im a sinner, and u don't think so.. " the thing is, if YOU did think u were a sinner, u wouldnt keep on going around spreading the fact that you've sinned.
I am terribly sorry but if you guys could like make a clear list of the ways of combating self-righteousness and gaining the virtue of humility
Also any stories on humility would be greatly appreciated
Finally, Vassilios if you could please just elaborate on your false humility point and in what exact way by saying i am an sinner is a type of false humility
Sorry for asking you guys to repeat what your saying but i will continue to read what you guys have said over and over
Are you sure St Paul was comparing himself to Jesus Christ when he said I am chief of sinners?
by chief of sinners doesn't that mean he was comparing himself to more than one person?
Can you actually be neutral and not compare yourself to anyone? don't you either have to think your better or that your worse at least in some ways?
maybe you don't know in total if your better than someone but you can think you are better in some ways and the other person is better than you in other things..
yet even then you don't know the secret things others have done.. so you could be wrong
When Iqbal wanted to make some alterations to this site he must have had the sort of discussion which has been going on here in mind in terms of where he would have wanted us to go; if I may say so, this is a very high quality discussion, and the advice being offered to us all is excellent.
It seems as though one of the great difference between Orthodoxy and the western tradition is that the former lacks the judicial attitude towards sin; Orthodoxy treats sin as a spiritual sickness which Christ will heal - not as a breaking of the law that needs to be punished. We are all sick, spiritually, and the Church is our hospital, the priests and deacons are our doctors and carers, the sacraments our medicine, and the Lord God our healer.
He is our loving Father, and He calls us to Him. So great is that love that He sent His only-begotten Son to die upon the Cross that we might have eternal life. In the face of that is is hard not to be humble. What did I do that He did that for me? What can I do other than to say how sorry I am for the use of the gifts He has given me? To contemplate His love is to feel humble - and to love Him for what He has done for us all.
We all fall short of the glory of God. Perhaps, too, we all have a tendency to be like the Pharisees who thought they fulfilled their duty by keeping to the letter of the Law; but He reminds us that it is the spirit of the Law too that we must fulfil. He teaches us how we can best love Him; by repenting and living better, more Christian lives. Let us remember what He tells us in 1 John 2:1-3:
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
If we think on this, and upon what happened on the first Good Friday, we should be kept from self-righteousness. But let us not despair at our state, for He tells us in Matthew 9:13:
But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.
Let us remember that - and give thanks and praise to His holy name.
[quote author=Lover of the father link=topic=5167.msg69349#msg69349 date=1175703494] Thank you everyone so much for your answers.
I am terribly sorry but if you guys could like make a clear list of the ways of combating self-righteousness and gaining the virtue of humility
Also any stories on humility would be greatly appreciated
Finally, Vassilios if you could please just elaborate on your false humility point and in what exact way by saying i am an sinner is a type of false humility
Sorry for asking you guys to repeat what your saying but i will continue to read what you guys have said over and over
Im pioneering in finding new ways in same the same thing: False humility , as stated by myself and Father Anthony Messih, is as follows:
ANY HUMILITY BASED ON A LIE IS FALSE HUMILITY. (No matter how nice it is, or how humble it sounds!!).
Let's have some True's and False's here for a second.
TRUTH: We are all sinners TRUTH: The Grace from God above is my strength in not sinning TRUTH: Im a sinner even though i havent done anything wrong.
False: Telling myself im a sinner , and others to pray for me, so that i don't feel self righteous is a falsehood. WHY: You are not telling yourself you are a sinner because you feel it; You are apparently saying it to make yourself feel like a sinner , which you will never feel given that you've done nothing wrong.
If you have done a sin (something which has required you to go and confess to a Priest) - then the rememberance of this sin should be a source of humility for you. BUt if you cannot find anything to make you feel humble (past sins), and yet you do not see the fact that its with GOD'S GRACE THAT YOU HAVENT SINNED IN THE BEGINNING, ITS ALL FALSE HUMILITY.
ITS ALL FAKE.
But you know what? Saint Mary happened once. The epitomy of humility and pride of Mankind. If we can learn humility from her, i'd rather do this.
For goodness sake, there must be a priest online that can help here!!
Vassilios offers good counsel. There is a sense in which no one can teach you how to avoid self-righteousness; it is something we always have to be on our guard against.
In his excellent book The Life of repentance and purity (and there's a book to read if you want the best advice on offer anywhere), Pope Shenouda writes:
The two greatest matters which prohibit confession and repentance are, excuses and self righteousness. As if man excuses himself by his weakness, or by the weakness of human nature generally, or by the severity of the outer wars, or that he committed the sin through ignorance or forgetfulness, or he was in it a sacrifice for someone else: Or he places the responsibility onto someone else. so he accuses the church for not caring for him, or he accuses his confession father of not being concerned for him, or he reproves God Himself for not sending assistance. The true repentant however, only accuses himself, carrying the disgrace of his sin by himself. He stands in front of God as a sinner not justifying himself, like what happened to the thief on the right, who confessed saying: “And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds” (Luke 23:41).
In another place the Pope writes, almost as in answer to your question:
There are two basic methods of fighting thoughts of self righteousness, and they are for a person to remember his sins, and to recall the highest stages reached by the saints. Recalling his sins will make a person humble, contrite and ashamed, because even a single sin can cause him to perish. Likewise, bringing to mind the highest stages which the saints attained in each form of virtue, will make a person realise how insignificant he is if he should compare himself to that level. We must also attribute to God's grace, any virtue or goodness that we might have done, and must remember that self-righteousness will make God's grace forsake us and leave us to fall.. which would soon make us aware of our weakness and return to a humble position.
I do hope these quotations help. The Synaxarium has some wonderful accounts of the lives of the Saints, so do read it regularly.
Forget everything i wrote and just read the book on repentance as given by Anglican below.
If you read the book on "Sayings of the Desert Fathers".... its a good book, ok! BUT!! Its dangerous if you havent read the above book 1st. The sayings of the fathers, although they were great, and are saints, you should really read this book with spiritual advice first. The things each monk/abbot did to combat ANY sin was unique to that monk. You cannot just take it and apply it to your life. We don't know what advice was given to them by their FoC's... all we see is the end result in a printed story book. There is a story of an abbot who saw a naked woman on a horse whilst with his brethern. He kept on looking at her until she rode away whilst all the other monks SHUNNED their heads and turned to the ground. Now, after she had left, he said to his brothers: "I feel sorry for you because you didnt have the capacity (or spiritual level) to see such a beautiful woman without falling into temptation"..
Its true from this story that this monk/abbot didnt look at the naked woman with desire. His brethern didnt either, but they took the option of running away from temptation. Now, in that case, i COULD say to myself, well.. i don't particularly have any sexual desires to a woman who is not my wife, and I see all women as my sisters (which could be true), therefore i allow myself to look at naked women where I can on the internet to just admire their beauty.
You see? Saints of the Desert Fathers is EXACTLY that.. .their SAYINGS... not everything in there applies to you. You should ask your FoC.
If I were a priest and some kid came up to me and said "Father, i m concerned im falling in the sin of being self righteous", i'd think to myself "what a strange thing to say, didn't you remember the last confession you came to me with?? And if you forgot your LAST confession, then did u also forget that its with God's grace that u didnt sin" . If you tell me "Yes father, its with God's grace I don't sin, and yet u still feel self righteous, it means u LIED TO ME (your FoC), and God when you said that it was with God's grace that u didn't sin.
Today was good friday, and all i could think of was ONE thing:
Some very nice man was helping Christ carry His cross, and i could only think of this: If Christ could even help me carry my own little cross that I failing in carrying...
If you want to follow the book "Sayings of the desert fathers", and do what they've done, then do it properly, and go and become and monk and have a spiritual director (not father!) to go and guide you personally!! But to apply things from there for your personal life is dangerous without consultation from your FoC who knows you well, and your spiritual level well.
However, the book by the Pope is not sayings of the fathers, but the spiritual wisdom of H.H in finding the fruits in the Bible and extracting them ready for you to eat (with consultation or without consultation from your FoC)! Pret-a-Manger spritual advice if you like.
An interesting question, on which it would be good to have some comments.
One key difference is that someone with low self-esteem has no trouble being humble - those fighting self-righteousness and pride are involved in a struggle to be humble. But I am sure others have good things to say here.
[quote author=Lover of the father link=topic=5167.msg69980#msg69980 date=1176824168] I know i am a little late in responding i just want to ask one more question.
How can you differentiate between humilty and low self esteem
You really should listen to the sermon by Fr. Anthony Messih (the link is given below)
Low self esteem is not good. One person phrased humility as the freedom in thinking about yourself less; whereas low self esteem is thinking less about yourself.
There's a fine line between both; and many many people in the Church have this problem. We really need wise councellours/priests. I remember a priest once shouted at everyone in a sermon saying to them: "You are all sinners... u are not worthy... u are all sinners..."( it was on Maunday THursday of the passion week). I think such an attitude can, if said to the wrong people make them think less of themselves. This is not good. Its an attitude that will lead to false humility, even depression, and maybe - in extreme cases suicide.
Of course there are some things in life that affect our self esteem; such as outer beauty, personality, how we look/talk/walk/sing/dance - our jobs/position in life etc... everything affects our self esteem.
Now look at the following TRUE equations:
OPTION 1: We are all sinners, not perfect, and not worthy of being called God's children = low self esteem
OPTION 2: Christ died for our sins, and His Love for us is greater than our sins, and out of the Goodness in Him, He adopted us as His Children = High self esteem.
Now, both above comments are true. SO : Do you wish to have a high self esteem or low self esteem? Its in your hands. With OPTION 2, you can have HUMILITY. Because if i say to myself that Christ died for my sins, and He loves me, it means that no matter WHAT GOOD I do, or whether I think high / low of my self and have a personally high or low self esteem, the hero in my life is always God. The reason for my self esteem is Christ.
Let's look at OPTION 1: OK, so yes, Christ died for us, we the unworthy. We are all sinners - if i say this often to myself, does it make me MORE WORTHY??? If i tell myself I'm a sinner every second, as oppossed to i'm loved every second, then what happens?
Many people think that a mix between option 1 and 2 is what is needed. I disagree. Those that think that a mix is required think that its important never to forget that you are a sinner (which is PARAMOUNT!! I agree with it) , but this is not the way to think of yourself as a sinner. The idea is good, but the way is disasterous. To consider yourself a sinner, as I said before, kNOW THAT ITS THROUGH GOD's GRACE THAT YOU DID'NT SIN!! That even if u didnt want to sin yourself, its because of His grace that you didn't sin! Secondly, don't forget what you confessed. God throws your sins in the sea of oblivion, you shouldnt do that.
Low self esteem is dangerous... this is wrong; and even the Desert Fathers agree with this. If u wish proof - let me know, i'll read u a story from them.
Look: One day a young man uses his VISA card and buys stuff on it. He goes around spending without really paying attention to the cost. The VISA statement comes, and he realises that its well over his budget - in fact, its so much, he is disturbed by the amount. He doesnt know what to do. He feels/shame/embarrassed/lonely/depressed - EVERY TIME he sees the statement. It appears that the credit card company wish to take his apartment and make him do community service for 50 years if he can't pay it.
Anyway, his poor , hardworking father finds out, and quielty, and silently pays for it. The VISA company send the young man a letter saying "Many Thanks, PAID" with the name of his father as the person who paid it.
This VISA STATEMENT that came, with the "PAID" sign on it, no longer depresses the young man, yet on the contrary, it becomes a souvenir of his Father's love for him - to the extent he even creates for this VISA statement a frame and hangs up on the wall to remind him that he is no longer under the authority of his debtors.
This is an analogy of what God has done with our debts / sins - if you like. Whenever we hang a cross on the wall in our homes - this is the time when the son framed the VISA statement. Do we hang the cross up on the wall to remind ourselves of our sins, or of God's love for us??!!
The point is this: imagine now you are this son, HOW ON EARTH COULD YOU SUFFER FROM SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!!!! Whatever good you've done, you were indebted over your head, and because of God's infinite mercy and love for us, He saved you. HOW THEN CAN YOU BE SELF RIGHTEOUS??? But if i remember this story, I can say to myself "WOW!! I can't believe how much i'm valued". Also, such an attitude, will help you AUTOMATICALLY forgive others!!!!!!!!
After your father has paid off ALL your debts, how then could you not forgive others the little amount of money that is due to you???
I know several people who have facial disfigurations, and have VERY VERY high self esteems and confidence. This is healthy. Walking around moping all day that you are a sinner is time wasting. You are focusing more on your debts that have been paid, than the love, admiration, glory, honour and majesty for the One who paid them off for you. Remembering you are a sinner and your sins is excellent if you remember also that they were paid off for you!! The devil wishes you to be depressed, and he can even use God's salvation against you to make u depressed, and give you false humility.
[quote author=Lover of the father link=topic=5167.msg69980#msg69980 date=1176824168] I know i am a little late in responding i just want to ask one more question.
How can you differentiate between humilty and low self esteem
Sorry, I didn't read all of vassilios's last response, so I don't know if he already mentioned this or not. I think that humility is recognizing one's weakness and sin while also realizing that all 'good' in us is through Christ, who is perfected in weakness. It is knowing that though I am not worthy of Christ's love, I am happy that He does love me.
Low self-esteem is realizing that one is a sinner and constantly feeling bad about it and feeling worthless without having hope that Christ will lift you up, or maybe not even doing anything to try to fix it, just moping around in the misery.
To avoid low self-esteem when seeking to avoid self-righteousness, remember that Christ loves you and strengthens you, and always have hope in His salvation. Also, remember that as long as you are a child of God, you can never be worthless. I hope that made some sense. :) I confused myself as I was writing it.
Comments
What is the best way to fight Self-Righteousness and to achieve the virtue of humility
Always think and know that you are a servant of God and of His people, meaning everyone else.
I'm going to modify what Mina said a bit, if I may.
Always think and know that you are a child of God, but never forget that you are a sinner and that you are not worthy of such an honour. This is an honour that has been bestowed upon you out of God's infinite love. Your sins are what drive a wedge and hinder you from achieving the potential that God has for you, and remembering that will keep you humble.
Please pray for me.
To combat this is so easy: Do you think it is because you are good that you do good deeds, or is it because of God's grace?
Is it because you are an amazing person that you haven't commited a heinous sin, or is it because of God's grace?
Do you love others because you are a loveable guy, or is it because of God's grace that helps you to love?
If the answers to the above questions are :"because of God's grace" then this will remind you that really, no matter what we do, without God's grace in our life, we will truley fail.
Remember also the phrase of Saint Paul :" I can do everything, IN THE LORD, who gives me strength".
That knowing that your strength comes from Him, is not just the key to humility and combatting self righteousness, not at all... its the truth also. If you wish, (just ask) and i can give you many examples..
Its true that we are all sinners - who amongst us is perfect? But for example; there are monks who are saints and still say they are sinners.. but what sin did they DO?! These monks COULD be severely tempted and attacked by thinking that they are self-righteous. So, to keep on saying: "Im a sinner, im a sinner.. im not righteous"... yet HAVING NO SIN IN YOUR HEART really that youve done wrong, and FINDING sins that you havent really done is damaging to your self esteem. If you havent sinned - BELIEVE ME, ITS BECAUSE OF GOD's GRACE, not because you're a good person. Let me give u an example, because I KNOW people will always attack what i say.. so i wish to be 110% clear:
Yesterday, in the metro in Paris, a homeless man went on a train and accidentally shoved his backpack in the face of a man sitting down. It was an accident. When the man complained, the homeless man started screaming at him, swearing at him, he was aggressive and violent at this poor old man sitting down.
Now, we can look ourselves and say :"Well.. thank God im not like that begger" - but the thing is, it wasnt my choice in my life that led me to NOT being homeless. i never Chose the parents i had. So, its not by my own cleverness or good nature that I can say i haven't sinnned; its because of God's grace. Had i had the SAME fate in life as this begger, who knows what kind of man i'd be?
as coptic teenagers in this day and error, i happen to see the virtue of humility much more easier to practise when i compare myself with friends who are spiritually higher than myself. as i happen to be 'happy' becusae of a certain virtue i think i have mastered, i take a glimpse of my friends (who are well advanced in the virtue region than i am) and remind myself, that there is always imporvement. God deserves more and that what i do is nothing compared to what he deserves and to what he receives by other TEENAGERS from the same ae, same era, sae background, same parents, even same church.
although i know many will dis-agree with my method, this in my opinion is an efficient way to combat the sin of pride and to attain humility.
pray for me
+WHY+
I don't like it actually when i hear copts saying and preaching "You are all sinners, you are not worthy.. do not forget you are a sinner" to make people realise the value of God's love, and that they need to be saved. This is a very mean and cruel way, that lowers people's self esteem for NO REASON. If you haven't sinned, depressing yourself over something you haven't done is unholy, and a LIE. And ANY LIE is wrong.
here's the proof: Father Tadros Malaty SAID to us :"LEARN FROM SAINT MARY IN HUMILITY!!"
So, my proof will come from Saint Mary:
We say about her :"O pure, without sin, virtuous and great in everything, saint in Everything, O you who presented to us Christ, bearing Him upon your arms" (This is the 1st verse of T-Atsolep Ensemeh - if u are a tasbeha guru...)...
What SIN did Saint Mary commit in her life?!!! What ONE thing WRONG did she do? Yet we are all sinners needing salvation. Yet she was humble, and full of humility.
Telling yourself :"Im a sinner, im a sinner, BECAUSE you are worried about being self righteous iS SICKENING!!! Because it means the following:
a) ITS FALSE HUMILITY. You are lying even to yourself. If you were really a sinner, you'd never have said that about yourself that "you are a sinner" .Then what sin did you do? If you have sinned, therefore, REPENT FOR IT, and repentance for your sins will result in a contrite and broken spirit.
b) But to tell yourself you are a sinner, and that you are not worthy ONLY to avoid being self righteous, it means you have the arrogance to consider yourself NOT a sinner, and its an excuse to use to make you believe that you are "normal" , which means DEEP DOWN IN YOUR HEART, YOU THINK A LOT OF YOURSELF. THat makes me sick.
c) ITS ALL FALSE HUMILITY.
d) ITS HYPOCRISY.
We are all sinners; therefore, if I haven't sinned, its through GOD'S GRACE that i havent sinned, because I know that by my own nature, my own human weak nature, that I'm PRONE to sin. Its as if its in my blood.
Its through HIS GRACE that i did not sin, not because i'm holy or divine, or i was born an angel.
Its like people on tasbeha.org who always say "Pray for me" at the end of their messages. I can't stand that. ITS FALSE HUMILITY. It reminds me of some guy at CHurch.. he used to walk around saying "pray for me, pray for me... pray for me... acting all holy and saintly" . One day, because i decided to do the tasbeha in English, he started swearing at me and my mother, and became VERY VERY AGGRESSIVE because he just wanted to do it in Coptic. This is the kind of question he'd ask "How can I avoid being self righteous?" HAHAHAHHAHA. But he wouldnt say "pray for me" as if he needed prayers... he say it as if he was saying "pray to me, pray to me, i'm worthy of your prayers".
Pray for yourself!!
Let me explain POINT a) above:
Let's say i just slept with 10 prostitutes. OK? I log in to tasbeha.org, and see what's going on. Do YOU HONESTLY THINK i'd say "pray for me, i'm a sinner? " I'd keep it quiete! I'd confess it, i'd repent for it, i'd be ashamed perhaps... but if i DID do something DREADFULLY sinful, why go around and say "pray for me, i'm a sinner"... its PERSONAL! ITS PRIVATE. But you say it to people u don't know "PRAY FOR ME".. so what sin did you do? If u did do a sin, and are SO WORRIED and ASHAMED about your actions, YOU'D HAVE NO PROBLEMS BEING WORRIED ABOUT BEING SELF RIGHTEOUS!!!!! WOULD YOU!!???? But its all FALSE HUMILITY!!! AND I HATE THAT!!
nicely put vassilios, although i think the virtue of humility, though put on paper seems to be very simple, in practise is exptreamly hard to pertain. i know for a fact that the salvation of many monks have been disollusion due to the lack of upholding the virtue of humility.
as coptic teenagers in this day and error, i happen to see the virtue of humility much more easier to practise when i compare myself with friends who are spiritually higher than myself.
Why, i have to say this:
Sayedna said (i forgot his name actually), in Saint Mark's in London, he said : NEVER COMPARE YOURSELF TO ANYONE. When saint paul said "Im the Chief of all sinners" - he wasnt comparing himself to his mother (in the words of sayedna!) - he was comparing himself to Jesus Christ.
Do not compare yourself spiritually to any human being. We tend to do this, but its wrong. I agree, i did the same, until i realised that the best bench mark to set myself against was Jesus Christ Himself. Not other human beings.
however thats besides the point.
as you said, there is a GREATTT sermon on humility given by Fr. Anthony MEssih somewhere on www.orthodoxsermons.org where the priest makes it clear to us that humility is not merely and i quote " walking around with your head down telling yourself that you are bad' or 'when you have alot of people over and you make a big feast and then they say oh thanks for the food you made too much and then you say WHAT FOOD I MADE NOTHING (in arabic: akl eh, dah wala haga)'...that is NOT humility.
however he goes on to defining humility to be anunderstanding of your talent and abilities but it when YOUR TESTED that the virtue of hulity is being tested. example like that given by vassilios, when vassilios was being screamed at becasue he conducted the tasbeha in english, humility at this stage is where vasilios would apologise and say sorry i didnt realise/care about your/others prefrences. sorry about that, next time we will be sure to do it the prefered way. PRAY FOR ME :P (ok that last part was put in as a tease
anyways it is times and tests like these that the true virtue of humility is shown through man.
pls pls try look up this sermon ( i will try find it) and take a hear of it..it is toppppp stuff! maybe the best sermon i ever heard!
Lover of the Father, it will be the answer to your question!!
[quote author=why link=topic=5167.msg69327#msg69327 date=1175689530]
nicely put vassilios, although i think the virtue of humility, though put on paper seems to be very simple, in practise is exptreamly hard to pertain. i know for a fact that the salvation of many monks have been disollusion due to the lack of upholding the virtue of humility.
as coptic teenagers in this day and error, i happen to see the virtue of humility much more easier to practise when i compare myself with friends who are spiritually higher than myself.
Why, i have to say this:
Sayedna said (i forgot his name actually), in Saint Mark's in London, he said : NEVER COMPARE YOURSELF TO ANYONE. When saint paul said "Im the Chief of all sinners" - he wasnt comparing himself to his mother (in the words of sayedna!) - he was comparing himself to Jesus Christ.
Do not compare yourself spiritually to any human being. We tend to do this, but its wrong. I agree, i did the same, until i realised that the best bench mark to set myself against was Jesus Christ Himself. Not other human beings.
oh so true vasillios, very true
HOWEVER i his dayand age, a visual comparison goes a long way..PERSONALLY!!!
once again i fully agree with what sayedna has said however although i try to follow his words, hearing the verese: be holy HOLY like I Am Holy is the first step to being acutally Holy, the next is to copy. although Jesus provided a great example for us to copy, there ae many instances in our time that did not come in jesus' life (mainly due to technologiccaladvances) thus, the way i resolve this is to look up to someone. this is usually your spiritual advisor whether it be an older friend or FOC or parent.
PERSONALLY this method altough once agan people disagree with it, i find to be effetive (and also, when i choose a figure,i choose a figure that represents the image of Christ, not just anyone..thats the diference)
PRAY FOR ME :P
Thanks for the feedback (lol).
I just wanna make ONE thing clear (out of honesty for myself) that what happened was this:
A woman told a bishop: Sayedna, i personally don't feel that Im the chief of all sinners. He said "Saint paul wasn't comparing himself to your mother, but comparing himself to Jesus Christ".
That's the exact story. I think what i wrote was just the jist or spirit of the conversation. Regardless, i hope it helps explain my point.
I do the same thing. Im exactly the same. I cannot for the life of me, bear to stand next to someone homeless and talk to him or her .. they smell so bad, they can be rude... yet my friends do it EVERY day and just cope with it. (im looking at changing and working with handicaped people instead). Yes, i do look up to them, but what happens if they sin? What effect will that have on your spiritual life? Someone you regarded as holy, and a saint, and someone you once admired and was inspirational to you, what effect will that have if they do something wrong? We agreed, that its because of God's grace that I do not sin... not because i'm a good person. So, why do u idolise them?
I love being with Christians who practice their faith , as you tend to be amongst people who at least have respect for what you respect. But so what? You should benchmark yourself with Jesus Christ. not with anyone else.
Someone once called me a saint. At first, i thought "that's nice", then he kept on telling me the same thing.. i got kinda bored of it, but what really happened was this: "I said to myself :"I NEVER ASKED HIM TO CALL ME THAT... NOW IM SCARED TO BE MYSELF IN FRONT OF THIS MAN, OTHERWISE HE'll BE DISAPPOINTED!". lol hahahha
Yeah.. he hasnt seen me do the tasbeha yet in English! Perhaps he should wait until that day before he calls me a saint again.
I don't like.. praising people like that... we are all equal actually. The danger of seeing others better than you is that you remove focus from yourself and your relationship with Christ.
[quote author=why link=topic=5167.msg69335#msg69335 date=1175692598]
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5167.msg69333#msg69333 date=1175691984]
[quote author=why link=topic=5167.msg69327#msg69327 date=1175689530]
nicely put vassilios, although i think the virtue of humility, though put on paper seems to be very simple, in practise is exptreamly hard to pertain. i know for a fact that the salvation of many monks have been disollusion due to the lack of upholding the virtue of humility.
as coptic teenagers in this day and error, i happen to see the virtue of humility much more easier to practise when i compare myself with friends who are spiritually higher than myself.
Why, i have to say this:
Sayedna said (i forgot his name actually), in Saint Mark's in London, he said : NEVER COMPARE YOURSELF TO ANYONE. When saint paul said "Im the Chief of all sinners" - he wasnt comparing himself to his mother (in the words of sayedna!) - he was comparing himself to Jesus Christ.
Do not compare yourself spiritually to any human being. We tend to do this, but its wrong. I agree, i did the same, until i realised that the best bench mark to set myself against was Jesus Christ Himself. Not other human beings.
oh so true vasillios, very true
HOWEVER i his dayand age, a visual comparison goes a long way..PERSONALLY!!!
once again i fully agree with what sayedna has said however although i try to follow his words, hearing the verese: be holy HOLY like I Am Holy is the first step to being acutally Holy, the next is to copy. although Jesus provided a great example for us to copy, there ae many instances in our time that did not come in jesus' life (mainly due to technologiccaladvances) thus, the way i resolve this is to look up to someone. this is usually your spiritual advisor whether it be an older friend or FOC or parent.
PERSONALLY this method altough once agan people disagree with it, i find to be effetive (and also, when i choose a figure,i choose a figure that represents the image of Christ, not just anyone..thats the diference)
PRAY FOR ME :P
nice point put forward..unfortunately u have baffled me and i have no reply!
sorry for the late post reply i was cheking my downloads.. have hit 3000 Mb!! gotta take it easy with the downloads hey!
Loer of the father i recomend that u hear the seron that i repviously talked of..sorry i will try to look for it now
Sorryabout the typos (having truoble with my newly put acrylics cant seem to push all the buttons properly LOL)
http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=22&Itemid=26
Why, i just heard the sermon... this priest is really funny.. he's a bit hard to understand though...
Here's a summary:
a) You should be teachable - Learn from others (bingo why! And i share the same problem).
b) THere is false humility: "Im a sinner , im a sinner, and u don't think so.. " the thing is, if YOU did think u were a sinner, u wouldnt keep on going around spreading the fact that you've sinned.
I'll continue the rest after...
The priest is very funny...
I am terribly sorry but if you guys could like make a clear list of the ways of combating self-righteousness and gaining the virtue of humility
Also any stories on humility would be greatly appreciated
Finally, Vassilios if you could please just elaborate on your false humility point and in what exact way by saying i am an sinner is a type of false humility
Sorry for asking you guys to repeat what your saying but i will continue to read what you guys have said over and over
by chief of sinners doesn't that mean he was comparing himself to more than one person?
Can you actually be neutral and not compare yourself to anyone? don't you either have to think your better or that your worse at least in some ways?
maybe you don't know in total if your better than someone but you can think you are better in some ways and the other person is better than you in other things..
yet even then you don't know the secret things others have done.. so you could be wrong
When Iqbal wanted to make some alterations to this site he must have had the sort of discussion which has been going on here in mind in terms of where he would have wanted us to go; if I may say so, this is a very high quality discussion, and the advice being offered to us all is excellent.
It seems as though one of the great difference between Orthodoxy and the western tradition is that the former lacks the judicial attitude towards sin; Orthodoxy treats sin as a spiritual sickness which Christ will heal - not as a breaking of the law that needs to be punished. We are all sick, spiritually, and the Church is our hospital, the priests and deacons are our doctors and carers, the sacraments our medicine, and the Lord God our healer.
He is our loving Father, and He calls us to Him. So great is that love that He sent His only-begotten Son to die upon the Cross that we might have eternal life. In the face of that is is hard not to be humble. What did I do that He did that for me? What can I do other than to say how sorry I am for the use of the gifts He has given me? To contemplate His love is to feel humble - and to love Him for what He has done for us all.
We all fall short of the glory of God. Perhaps, too, we all have a tendency to be like the Pharisees who thought they fulfilled their duty by keeping to the letter of the Law; but He reminds us that it is the spirit of the Law too that we must fulfil. He teaches us how we can best love Him; by repenting and living better, more Christian lives. Let us remember what He tells us in 1 John 2:1-3: If we think on this, and upon what happened on the first Good Friday, we should be kept from self-righteousness. But let us not despair at our state, for He tells us in Matthew 9:13: Let us remember that - and give thanks and praise to His holy name.
In Christ,
John
Thank you everyone so much for your answers.
I am terribly sorry but if you guys could like make a clear list of the ways of combating self-righteousness and gaining the virtue of humility
Also any stories on humility would be greatly appreciated
Finally, Vassilios if you could please just elaborate on your false humility point and in what exact way by saying i am an sinner is a type of false humility
Sorry for asking you guys to repeat what your saying but i will continue to read what you guys have said over and over
Im pioneering in finding new ways in same the same thing:
False humility , as stated by myself and Father Anthony Messih, is as follows:
ANY HUMILITY BASED ON A LIE IS FALSE HUMILITY. (No matter how nice it is, or how humble it sounds!!).
Let's have some True's and False's here for a second.
TRUTH: We are all sinners
TRUTH: The Grace from God above is my strength in not sinning
TRUTH: Im a sinner even though i havent done anything wrong.
False: Telling myself im a sinner , and others to pray for me, so that i don't feel self righteous is a falsehood. WHY: You are not telling yourself you are a sinner because you feel it; You are apparently saying it to make yourself feel like a sinner , which you will never feel given that you've done nothing wrong.
If you have done a sin (something which has required you to go and confess to a Priest) - then the rememberance of this sin should be a source of humility for you. BUt if you cannot find anything to make you feel humble (past sins), and yet you do not see the fact that its with GOD'S GRACE THAT YOU HAVENT SINNED IN THE BEGINNING, ITS ALL FALSE HUMILITY.
ITS ALL FAKE.
But you know what? Saint Mary happened once. The epitomy of humility and pride of Mankind. If we can learn humility from her, i'd rather do this.
For goodness sake, there must be a priest online that can help here!!
Vassilios offers good counsel. There is a sense in which no one can teach you how to avoid self-righteousness; it is something we always have to be on our guard against.
In his excellent book The Life of repentance and purity (and there's a book to read if you want the best advice on offer anywhere), Pope Shenouda writes: In another place the Pope writes, almost as in answer to your question: I do hope these quotations help. The Synaxarium has some wonderful accounts of the lives of the Saints, so do read it regularly.
In Christ,
John
If you read the book on "Sayings of the Desert Fathers".... its a good book, ok! BUT!! Its dangerous if you havent read the above book 1st. The sayings of the fathers, although they were great, and are saints, you should really read this book with spiritual advice first. The things each monk/abbot did to combat ANY sin was unique to that monk. You cannot just take it and apply it to your life. We don't know what advice was given to them by their FoC's... all we see is the end result in a printed story book. There is a story of an abbot who saw a naked woman on a horse whilst with his brethern. He kept on looking at her until she rode away whilst all the other monks SHUNNED their heads and turned to the ground. Now, after she had left, he said to his brothers: "I feel sorry for you because you didnt have the capacity (or spiritual level) to see such a beautiful woman without falling into temptation"..
Its true from this story that this monk/abbot didnt look at the naked woman with desire. His brethern didnt either, but they took the option of running away from temptation. Now, in that case, i COULD say to myself, well.. i don't particularly have any sexual desires to a woman who is not my wife, and I see all women as my sisters (which could be true), therefore i allow myself to look at naked women where I can on the internet to just admire their beauty.
You see? Saints of the Desert Fathers is EXACTLY that.. .their SAYINGS... not everything in there applies to you. You should ask your FoC.
If I were a priest and some kid came up to me and said "Father, i m concerned im falling in the sin of being self righteous", i'd think to myself "what a strange thing to say, didn't you remember the last confession you came to me with?? And if you forgot your LAST confession, then did u also forget that its with God's grace that u didnt sin" . If you tell me "Yes father, its with God's grace I don't sin, and yet u still feel self righteous, it means u LIED TO ME (your FoC), and God when you said that it was with God's grace that u didn't sin.
Today was good friday, and all i could think of was ONE thing:
Some very nice man was helping Christ carry His cross, and i could only think of this: If Christ could even help me carry my own little cross that I failing in carrying...
If you want to follow the book "Sayings of the desert fathers", and do what they've done, then do it properly, and go and become and monk and have a spiritual director (not father!) to go and guide you personally!! But to apply things from there for your personal life is dangerous without consultation from your FoC who knows you well, and your spiritual level well.
However, the book by the Pope is not sayings of the fathers, but the spiritual wisdom of H.H in finding the fruits in the Bible and extracting them ready for you to eat (with consultation or without consultation from your FoC)! Pret-a-Manger spritual advice if you like.
How can you differentiate between humilty and low self esteem
An interesting question, on which it would be good to have some comments.
One key difference is that someone with low self-esteem has no trouble being humble - those fighting self-righteousness and pride are involved in a struggle to be humble. But I am sure others have good things to say here.
In Christ,
John
I know i am a little late in responding i just want to ask one more question.
How can you differentiate between humilty and low self esteem
You really should listen to the sermon by Fr. Anthony Messih (the link is given below)
Low self esteem is not good. One person phrased humility as the freedom in thinking about yourself less; whereas low self esteem is thinking less about yourself.
There's a fine line between both; and many many people in the Church have this problem. We really need wise councellours/priests. I remember a priest once shouted at everyone in a sermon saying to them: "You are all sinners... u are not worthy... u are all sinners..."( it was on Maunday THursday of the passion week). I think such an attitude can, if said to the wrong people make them think less of themselves. This is not good. Its an attitude that will lead to false humility, even depression, and maybe - in extreme cases suicide.
Of course there are some things in life that affect our self esteem; such as outer beauty, personality, how we look/talk/walk/sing/dance - our jobs/position in life etc... everything affects our self esteem.
Now look at the following TRUE equations:
OPTION 1: We are all sinners, not perfect, and not worthy of being called God's children = low self esteem
OPTION 2: Christ died for our sins, and His Love for us is greater than our sins, and out of the Goodness in Him, He adopted us as His Children = High self esteem.
Now, both above comments are true. SO : Do you wish to have a high self esteem or low self esteem? Its in your hands. With OPTION 2, you can have HUMILITY. Because if i say to myself that Christ died for my sins, and He loves me, it means that no matter WHAT GOOD I do, or whether I think high / low of my self and have a personally high or low self esteem, the hero in my life is always God. The reason for my self esteem is Christ.
Let's look at OPTION 1: OK, so yes, Christ died for us, we the unworthy. We are all sinners - if i say this often to myself, does it make me MORE WORTHY??? If i tell myself I'm a sinner every second, as oppossed to i'm loved every second, then what happens?
Many people think that a mix between option 1 and 2 is what is needed. I disagree. Those that think that a mix is required think that its important never to forget that you are a sinner (which is PARAMOUNT!! I agree with it) , but this is not the way to think of yourself as a sinner. The idea is good, but the way is disasterous. To consider yourself a sinner, as I said before, kNOW THAT ITS THROUGH GOD's GRACE THAT YOU DID'NT SIN!! That even if u didnt want to sin yourself, its because of His grace that you didn't sin!
Secondly, don't forget what you confessed. God throws your sins in the sea of oblivion, you shouldnt do that.
Low self esteem is dangerous... this is wrong; and even the Desert Fathers agree with this. If u wish proof - let me know, i'll read u a story from them.
Look: One day a young man uses his VISA card and buys stuff on it. He goes around spending without really paying attention to the cost. The VISA statement comes, and he realises that its well over his budget - in fact, its so much, he is disturbed by the amount. He doesnt know what to do. He feels/shame/embarrassed/lonely/depressed - EVERY TIME he sees the statement. It appears that the credit card company wish to take his apartment and make him do community service for 50 years if he can't pay it.
Anyway, his poor , hardworking father finds out, and quielty, and silently pays for it. The VISA company send the young man a letter saying "Many Thanks, PAID" with the name of his father as the person who paid it.
This VISA STATEMENT that came, with the "PAID" sign on it, no longer depresses the young man, yet on the contrary, it becomes a souvenir of his Father's love for him - to the extent he even creates for this VISA statement a frame and hangs up on the wall to remind him that he is no longer under the authority of his debtors.
This is an analogy of what God has done with our debts / sins - if you like. Whenever we hang a cross on the wall in our homes - this is the time when the son framed the VISA statement. Do we hang the cross up on the wall to remind ourselves of our sins, or of God's love for us??!!
The point is this: imagine now you are this son, HOW ON EARTH COULD YOU SUFFER FROM SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!!!! Whatever good you've done, you were indebted over your head, and because of God's infinite mercy and love for us, He saved you. HOW THEN CAN YOU BE SELF RIGHTEOUS??? But if i remember this story, I can say to myself "WOW!! I can't believe how much i'm valued". Also, such an attitude, will help you AUTOMATICALLY forgive others!!!!!!!!
After your father has paid off ALL your debts, how then could you not forgive others the little amount of money that is due to you???
I know several people who have facial disfigurations, and have VERY VERY high self esteems and confidence. This is healthy. Walking around moping all day that you are a sinner is time wasting. You are focusing more on your debts that have been paid, than the love, admiration, glory, honour and majesty for the One who paid them off for you. Remembering you are a sinner and your sins is excellent if you remember also that they were paid off for you!! The devil wishes you to be depressed, and he can even use God's salvation against you to make u depressed, and give you false humility.
I know i am a little late in responding i just want to ask one more question.
How can you differentiate between humilty and low self esteem
Sorry, I didn't read all of vassilios's last response, so I don't know if he already mentioned this or not. I think that humility is recognizing one's weakness and sin while also realizing that all 'good' in us is through Christ, who is perfected in weakness. It is knowing that though I am not worthy of Christ's love, I am happy that He does love me.
Low self-esteem is realizing that one is a sinner and constantly feeling bad about it and feeling worthless without having hope that Christ will lift you up, or maybe not even doing anything to try to fix it, just moping around in the misery.
To avoid low self-esteem when seeking to avoid self-righteousness, remember that Christ loves you and strengthens you, and always have hope in His salvation. Also, remember that as long as you are a child of God, you can never be worthless.
I hope that made some sense. :) I confused myself as I was writing it.
Do that n you'll be fine.