Hi,
Although we are already out of communion with the RC, how do we stand with respect to Vatican II? What did this bring with respect differences between us and the Roman Catholics?
The only thing i can see in Vatican II is that they abolished Latin in their masses. (of course the churches who still pray in latin, as far as i understand, are the Traditionalists). This, by the way, makes me think of the effect of having Coptic in our mass?
Thanks for any feedback concerning this issue.
Comments
Mina,
Vassilios already stated that we are not in communion with the RC church, and I'm sure he is very familiar with the fact that we are only in communion with fellow OO churches. His question was more about the affects (if any) of Vatican II on us as a Church.
Vassilios,
I, personally, am not familiar with the contents of Vatican II, but I would think that it has little importance at all in our Church. In other words, I don't think we should care about it. If you have a reference where I could read up more about Vatican II, I would greatly appreciate it.
we are in excommunication with the RC - so why the interest in Vatican II???
Well.. let me enlighten you on something I just realised:
There are communities within the Catholic Church that are against Vatican II also. They are against all the dogmatic/theological changes that the RC has done, and have been as a result, excommunicated themselves from the Catholic Church.
Have you seen Catholic priests wearing the old gowns??They are traditionalists.
So, what then is the relationship with our Church? Well... firstly, im curious about the similarities between us and the traditionalists. I attended a Traditionalist mass: and frankly, I WAS VERY IMPRESSED! They did EVERYTHING we do during the mass. The priest ALWAYS puts the body of Christ in the mouth of those having communion, never in their hands.. The only thing I noticed that was not orthodox was they did state the filoque in their creed. That bugged me. Most catholic masses don't even mention it. They go out of their way to mention it.
Also, we can draw upon many lessons from Vatican II. How? Well, In our CHurch, we are at a point where many people are looking at abolishing COptic in the mass altogether. From what i've seen what happens is, this will cause division in the Church. Not theologically, but socially and spiritually as you will have a group who insist that the mass is in Coptic, and another that cannot bear to pray in Coptic. If we were to learn from Vatican II, i'd say that we should keep Coptic IN the mass (AND OBVIOUSLY IN THE TASBEHA), but there's no need to read the gospel during the passion week in Coptic (that's asking for trouble!!!!!).
Does everyone see what i mean? A lot of division between people happened as a result of Vatican II because it removed latin from the mass. There are other factors also, but this just made me think about what we are doing today in our CHurch.
I got into an argument about this with someone in church recently. He brought up an interesting point; he mentioned how during the Pentecost everyone heard St. Peter in his own tongue. He said that this shows how spiritually irrelevant language is. The main point should be for us, as Christians, to use whatever language we must to attract the greatest amount of people. His argument was that English would bring more people, both Copts who only understand English and non-Copts, to the church. Coptic, he said, makes the church seem exclusive and uninviting to those who don't understand the language; to them, the use of a foreign language would hinder their spiritual growth.
Personally, I don't agree with this, however, I must admit that he has a very good point.
I see your point, however I must disagree on one point. I believe that we should read all the gospels during passion week in Coptic. ;D
I got into an argument about this with someone in church recently. He brought up an interesting point; he mentioned how during the Pentecost everyone heard St. Peter in his own tongue. He said that this shows how spiritually irrelevant language is. The main point should be for us, as Christians, to use whatever language we must to attract the greatest amount of people. His argument was that English would bring more people, both Copts who only understand English and non-Copts, to the church. Coptic, he said, makes the church seem exclusive and uninviting to those who don't understand the language; to them, the use of a foreign language would hinder their spiritual growth.
Personally, I don't agree with this, however, I must admit that he has a very good point.
Well my friend, i believe that my advice will keep the Coptic language IN the Coptic Church.
As i said, i believe that Coptic SHOULD remain with us. However, reading gospels in Coptic in a Church is provocative. It will be the last straw for many. If you wish to keep Coptic in the CHurch, be reasonable, and you don't have to chant the entire Coptic Bible in Coptic -why? It will be said in Arabic / English/ and French (if u are in France)... whats worse is, the person reading it NEVER pronounces it well!!!
I wish Coptic to remain forever in our CHurch, but going to such extremes as reading bibles in a language NO ONE understands is fanatical. Singing in Coptic is totally different because it would be our duty to learn the words the of a Coptic Song and their meaning.
Its not wise by the way to pray in a language that is NOT your mother tongue.
I see your point, however I must disagree on one point. I believe that we should read all the gospels during passion week in Coptic. ;D
actually in the beginning of the rite of psacha week and holy lent, the belivers used to read ALL of the bible during lent and holy week. now we just read the 4 gospels, psalms, tobit, job and also am sure we finished some book from all those prophacies in pascha.
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Vassilios,
for some reason u worry to much about our church future. which is great and respected. but trust me, ur church will not change. our church passed every era that happend through about 1900 yrs and it's still the same. and wait, that was only with members inside egypt. now look around you, look where do i live and where i live. our church will always be there, will always grow, will always stand among the highest in rank. like i said before, since when Catholics or anyone else did somthing that effacted us as a church.
God bless you all. I read through this thread, and now I don't understand what the point vassilios and others are trying to make, as I am not aware of the Vatican II issue. I just would like to point out something: I don't think there is any Orthodox church in Egypt or outside Egypt that the Bible is being read only in Coptic. That only happens during the Passion Week, and it is only a couple of verses, then it is translated to either Arabic, English, or sometimes both. So, I don't see a reason why we are debating this point, or maybe I just don't understand. So if someone please can explain to me what this is all about. And again, if it is something to do with following the example of Vatican II who banned the Latin language in their Mass (as I merely understood), then I am in favour at all with that.
God bless you all and please mention me in your prayers
Vatican II doesnt affect us, but im saying we can learn from it. One lesson we can learn from it is that in Vatican II, they abolished latin in masses. There were some communities in the catholic CHurch that loved latin, and felt that the RC were becoming too modern, so they split from it. Those that split because of being anti-modern, are called "Traditionalists".
Now, i'm saying that in the Coptic Church, to make sure this doesnt happen, its best to NOT read the gospel in COptic.
You can be saying to yourselves: Who cares? We will NEVER split. Well.. that's not wise, many many Coptic Christians have stopped going to the Coptic Church because of the Coptic in the Church. They don't see why they they should pray in a language they don't understand, so i'm not worried about the FUTURE of the COC , but its present state, and the unity of our faitful.
I think Coptic should stay! but, be wise, and make sure that everything is translated into a language people understand, and at the same time, do not do things like reading passages of the bible in Coptic during passion week. If anyone was thinking of leaving the Coptic CHurch because they didnt understand or benefit because of the Coptic Language, then seeing this, would be the last straw for many.
ANyway, the lessons learnt from Vatican II is just a side topic.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5201.msg69694#msg69694 date=1176467956]
[quote author=EpNomos EnTaio link=topic=5201.msg69688#msg69688 date=1176455394]
I see your point, however I must disagree on one point. I believe that we should read all the gospels during passion week in Coptic. ;D
actually in the beginning of the rite of psacha week and holy lent, the belivers used to read ALL of the bible during lent and holy week. now we just read the 4 gospels, psalms, tobit, job and also am sure we finished some book from all those prophacies in pascha.
----
Vassilios,
for some reason u worry to much about our church future. which is great and respected. but trust me, ur church will not change. our church passed every era that happend through about 1900 yrs and it's still the same. and wait, that was only with members inside egypt. now look around you, look where do i live and where i live. our church will always be there, will always grow, will always stand among the highest in rank. like i said before, since when Catholics or anyone else did somthing that effacted us as a church.
We are losing our culture. It is not wise to set it aside, because in doing so, we will lose it.
Latin is not a dead language. If it's not used in the church it will still survive. The Coptic language is dying, and it is only used in the church.
We are losing our culture. It is not wise to set it aside, because in doing so, we will lose it.
ur saying that the church will not servive?!!!!!!!!!
also our culture is not fully coptic. there is still alhan that will not go away. right now we're trying to revive tons of stuff u wont even belive it's there.
Its president is my teacher. Do you have any idea how much we've already lost? We used to have so many more hymns that we have now. We've lost entire books of hymns. Do you know why we use Greek hymns for Resurrection? We lost most our Coptic Resurrection hymns around i believe the 19th century. We are now trying to translate a Coptic version of the bible from original manuscripts. Do you know how much of it we can't find? about 2/3 of the new testament. Do you know how much art was destroyed by the Romans and the Muslims? We use to be a majority, now we are a dying minority. If we stop caring, the pathetically small attachment we have to our country and our culture will be gone. I don't know about you but personally i don't like the fact that most of the research on Copts is done by French and German scholars. We have to step up and start doing something.
And i don't understand why we are so appalled at the notion that the church might not survive. We must be open to all possibilities. It is this same naivety that has been the ruin of many civilizations.
Well, look here for a second. We all love our Church, so we're all on the same side at least; so let's discuss this with an open heart and mind. All i'm saying is that we should learn from others. In Vatican II, groups of catholics were excommunicated because of modernism within the Church. Now, modernism with respect to VII is getting rid of latin in masses.
With respect to the Coptic Orthodox Church (COC), unless we learn from this, then we too will be a divided Church.
Mina, WE ARE ALREADY DIVIDED! We have a group in our CHurch that loves Coptic, another group that hate it (to the extent that they leave whenever its sung), and a VERY VERY small group that tries to pray with Coptic and non-Coptic Orthodox hymns.
For me the answer is simple:
a) COPTIC HAS TO STAY: simply because our hymns are based on this language; further to that, the hymns itself are the fruit of our Church from which we eat to grow spiritually, changing such fruits to alternative foreign grown products will result in lack of spiritual nutrition.
b) FOR COPTIC TO STAY: it is imperative it is administered wisely:
1) It should be essential to teach all alhan used in the mass to children in sunday school. The current Sunday School curriculum ONLY has in it baby songs: "Alleluia Fai Pe pi" etc... we have to make sure the young know ALL The hymns in the mass in Coptic! PERIOD.
c) TAKE OUT COPTIC BIBLES BEING READ IN PASSION WEEK.
-- > Reading the bible in Coptic is not wise at all; because when we teach hymns in Coptic, we teach the meaning of the hymn,and so we are able to pray and worship in Coptic with FULL understanding. Reading the Gospel in Coptic means what??? What does that do for anyone?? All it will do is annoy people. U want to keep Coptic in the Church??? Be wise, and make sure that we are not fanatical.
d) Sunday School Teachers should be screened. I know this sounds bad, but a teacher who does not in himself respect Coptic hymns will not propagate this love for those in his/her class.
Mina, WE ARE ALREADY DIVIDED OVER COPTIC ya habibi!! Our youth is divided, and our CHurch has become anglican. The church leaders etc let this happen because they think that because they have control OVER the mass, and the mass is ALWAYS in coptic (with respect to hymns) then there is no problem. They are SOO BLIND. what happens is this: When the youth hear a mass with Coptic hymns, they don't participate. They sing something else. One guy , who is british AND A YOUTH LEADER in our church, told me that when he doesnt even know something in Coptic, he sings in tongues. The rest of the youth LEAVE and go off to another CHurch (ANGLICAN!).
Our hymns (of course as well as our theology) make up what is Coptic Orthodox. Take away our hymns, and tasbeha, and what are u left with???
Bottom line is this: Take away our Coptic Hymns, you take away a LARGE part of our Church. Replacing it with anything else , even if it does not compromise our theology, you have replaced what our Coptic Church fathers have put in place by that coming from modern denominations. I HATE IT. It worries me, and it bothers me deeply.
ALSO, NOTHING SHOULD BE PRAYED IN COPTIC that was not in the syllabus for the youth. For example: In the sunday school syllabus, there should be a list of all hymns the youth will be taught. One bright deacon comes along and starts singing solo in Coptic a hymn that no one has learnt in Coptic, and there is NO TRANSLATION for it, this should be stopped!!! IMMEDIATELY! Its easy to download a hymn , learn it, and sing it, and NOT understand a word of it.
For example: PEKETHRONOS, this is a great example: This is sang on Good Friday. Its a brilliant hymn that not many people know. IT SHOULD STAY: because a) it is translated into english/arabic/french b) Those that do not know it, have no excuse to not pray when its being sung.
On the other hand, during Kiahk, there are some hymns NOT EVEN TRANSLATED INTO ARABIC!! Im not saying to lose them , but FIRST MAKE SURE THAT IT WAS INCLUDED AS A HYMN IN THE CHURCH SYLLABUS. If it was in the syllabus, sing it. Those that missed learning it, tough. But if it wasnt in the syllabus, and its NOT EVEN translated to a popular language - NO! Its not fair... why should someone sing solo and annoy the living daylight out of everyone??? its showing off ... that's not praying either, its fanatism.
[quote author=EpNomos EnTaio link=topic=5201.msg69817#msg69817 date=1176675533]
I am saying that we run the risk of losing the Coptic language. And yes, i am aware of all the remnants we are trying to revive. In the 70s, the church set up an institute for precisely that task. The St. Shenouda the Archimandrite Coptic Society.
Its president is my teacher. Do you have any idea how much we've already lost? We used to have so many more hymns that we have now. We've lost entire books of hymns. Do you know why we use Greek hymns for Resurrection? We lost most our Coptic Resurrection hymns around i believe the 19th century. We are now trying to translate a Coptic version of the bible from original manuscripts. Do you know how much of it we can't find? about 2/3 of the new testament. Do you know how much art was destroyed by the Romans and the Muslims? We use to be a majority, now we are a dying minority. If we stop caring, the pathetically small attachment we have to our country and our culture will be gone. I don't know about you but personally i don't like the fact that most of the research on Copts is done by French and German scholars. We have to step up and start doing something.
And i don't understand why we are so appalled at the notion that the church might not survive. We must be open to all possibilities. It is this same naivety that has been the ruin of many civilizations.
We've lost entire books of hymns.
yes we did. i myslef am tring to find the deacons servant book that was put togather by Fr. Abdel-messeh el-mass'ode, which is a great source for hymns. Am not sure the date is right but those hymns or parts as i would like to call them were put in by HH Pope Kerrolos IV, as a reason to try to unify with the Greek Church at the time. Also it's not that serios, we just took the text and the tunes were set by our cantors. you can find the text here:
Greek Parts. wow i din't know about that. we already have the Coptic bible translated from the saptegunt and that translation is one of the oldest and the trusted translation in the world. and i think we stall have that in Alex. Well the problem is that people in egypt are trying to live a life first than tryong to do all that. Now am sure there is many that do care and do act upon all of that in many researchs. and God just keep His church living.
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[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5201.msg69829#msg69829 date=1176715561]
Mina, WE ARE ALREADY DIVIDED! We have a group in our CHurch that loves Coptic, another group that hate it (to the extent that they leave whenever its sung), and a VERY VERY small group that tries to pray with Coptic and non-Coptic Orthodox hymns.
well you can't force someone to learn a language that is not used any more. i personally love the coptic language...try as much as possible to learn about it. but you havge to consider others.
now this counterdicts with a and b. again you can't just learn coptic to sing. ur supposed to inderstand what ur saying. reading the bible in coptic in general in pascha or in normal liturgies is a great tradition that is kept by our churchs. the bible was read in coptic first, our original language, and than read in greek or what ever the countries' language at the time. ya habibi you can't put rule on everyone that they would leave the church. the leaders of the church, as clergy in general, consider current problems to run our church. don't think it's easy for them to just change things but sometimes they have to to keep their flock in the faith. every member of clergy is responsiable for his flocks. on the Last Day, when entering heaven, a priest will be judged on every soul he was responsiable for that is not there behind him to enter heaven. Now people who just are lost and there is no way for them to come back, as you say they leave. but that doesn't affact the other believers in the faith. no don't worry, they wont go away. we have many who keep them. there is even bishops who take care of that. What HG Bishop Rafel does in egypt with all the youth around the Cairo area is great. here, see for yourself on this site,
alhan.youthbishopric.com
Lol, now you're just controlling alhan is it's urs. it's either supprot alhan or not. yoiu can't limit what to say. also you can't expect EVERY single person in church to know coptic and to sing with you. evn thoo it would be great to hear all these people in one voice in a big church.
yes i agree with you there are hymns that have no translation. but the only one i can think of is 'Iester meji' which is said in the paramon of the Nativity. may be you can list more...if there is.
The Coptic language does not constitute a theological matter, but it is exceedingly important to consider and use in spiritual matters. Thus, it should be treated the same way.
Just because the majority does not speak Coptic does not mean they are all right in doing so. It's not about being unreasonable or fanatical. The issue is simply this: the church does not need us; we need the church. We conform to it, not the other way around.
We should teach Coptic to the youth, not fear them and adhere to their whims. I agree with the Sunday school idea but i think it should be implemented towards Coptic not hymns. If we all know Coptic this will no longer be an issue.
and i remember as a kid goin to a RC school
i remember learning that at Vatican II the Catholic Church
did its best to "bring in more people"
so it did things like:
a) abolishing the usage of the Latin Language
b) shortening the mass
c)changing the direction of the mass(they used to face east like us) but now the priest looks towards the congregation
d) also women no longer had to wear the (isharb) the scarf on their head
e) they (women) were allowed to adminster communion (the blood) to others etc.
personally as far as the Coptic Language is Concerned:
i believe that the Coptic Language SHOULD NEVER BE LET TO DIE OUT
it was originally our langauge and the language of our heritage until the arab conquest, where we were forced to NOT speak it in public
but today we live in a new era, were we as Copts whether in Egypt or abroad have more freedom than our ancestors, so we should take a hold of this chance and try to re-learn our grandparent's "native tounge" just as we learn a secondary language in school. This of course like most things, is easier said and done, but it HAS TO BE ATTEMPTED, for as the old saying goes "if you dont know where your comming from, you wont know where your going" and it is up to our Church Elders to help establish this.
Well said!
Vatican II, like the various Anglican attempts at reform start from the wrong end of things. We should be adapting sinful selves to the demands of the Church - not trying to create a Church that is in our image; that way disaster lies.
The Catholic Mass is written in a language so boring and banal that it matches the new Anglican liturgies - a quick mass to get on with other things. Our services reflect the glory of God and our desire to accord Him worship, honour and glory. It seems only right and proper that the Coptic Church should still use Coptic as part of the Liturgy - most of us (even newbies from the UK like me) can pick up parts of it.
I hope the Copts don't get hung up on this. As the Apostles said in Acts 15, we must adapt the yoke to those who bear it and not make it too heavy. The Coptic Church seems to be doing pretty well with its current attitude. We certainly don't need the equivalent of a Vatican II.
In Christ,
John
....We should teach Coptic to the youth, not fear them and adhere to their whims. I agree with the Sunday school idea but i think it should be implemented towards Coptic not hymns. If we all know Coptic this will no longer be an issue.
i don't disagree with you BUT not everyone will learn coptic. you agian have to consider other.
Consider this:
I used to live in Los Angeles near a very prominent Jewish community. In this community, as in most others, it was customary for one to learn Hebrew when one was old enough. This community has enough group cohesiveness that everyone is socialized to follow tradition without dissension. I think that as a community we lack this cohesiveness; we are too lenient and hasty to please others that we get to the point where we have to actually argue about the use of our own language. The fact that Coptic education is lacking is a failure on our part. We are losing our country, we are scattered to the proverbial corners of the Earth, and now we are even losing our heritage.
I agree with John. We can't be like the western churches. We are unique because we stick to our tradition. We are known for our staunch determination and unwavering will. We are called "orthodox" in reference to that same concept.
Ours is the church that the great St. Athanasius defied the entire world to defend, the church that remained loyal to her patriarchs in defiance of all foreign decrees. For the sake of our saints, our history, and our culture, we have to maintain our tradition and pass it on the same way we received it.
I do think that what you write is absolutely correct. No one is arguing for a kind of Coptic fundamentalism, in which everyone learns it or else ... . It is simply about cherishing part of your heritage. If, as you suggest, the learning of Coptic is encouraged at the right educational stages, then it can, again, become part of the linguistic use of those descended from the ancient Egyptians. After all, it only dwindled in use because the conquerors of Egypt tried to stamp it out.
You are so right to remind us all of the contribution made by the Copts; it is, and continues to be, a very distinguished one. HH Pope Shenouda III is, I think, one of the world's most distinguished spiritual leaders.
In Christ,
John
I think that as a community we lack this cohesiveness; we are too lenient and hasty to please others that we get to the point where we have to actually argue about the use of our own language. The fact that Coptic education is lacking is a failure on our part. We are losing our country, we are scattered to the proverbial corners of the Earth, and now we are even losing our heritage.
first, please don't compare us to any other religion or denomination or anything else. i personally don't like that. our church is unique and to me it will stay that way even if others change or not.
second, why...again....and again...do you worry about losing our heritage. as u said St. Athansios defended the fith with St. Cyril the piller of faith and St. Dioscoros. but they we're fighting fr our language, but for our faith. our faith will stay with us till we get to our original place. our place is not on earth, egypt or any where else, but it's in heaven. don't tell me u'll speak coptic in heaven...
ya habibi, just worry about ur salvation and others after you .... coptic won't get to heaven but what you do through the coptic church will.
Some excellent points.
The Coptic Church has remained faithful to the Faith and its own heritage under some of the greatest persecution imaginable, and over a very long period. Under HH. Pope Shenouda and his predecessor it has, once again, begun to expand and to regain something of its old influence; 'by their fruits shall ye know them'.
The Coptic Church, which has survived for so long and so faithfully, bears a great witness to the world; there is no need to fear anything, the Lord is with us.
In Christ,
John