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what do u think about this ?
at the vesper prayer of palm sunday,abouna at our church get a group of girls,made them sit in the first seats,gave them mic and let them pray long evlogimenos with him (which he had taught them recently).
it was the first time for this to happen at our church,so alot of deacons didn`t like it,they thought that by this way girls are leading the prayers which is not allowed at the church.some said it`s not right to do so,others said it`s ok as long as there are no deacons who know this hymn.some others said that some bishops didn`t agree about this....So
i wanted to know what is ur opinion ?
was it right to do so or not ?
thx
it was the first time for this to happen at our church,so alot of deacons didn`t like it,they thought that by this way girls are leading the prayers which is not allowed at the church.some said it`s not right to do so,others said it`s ok as long as there are no deacons who know this hymn.some others said that some bishops didn`t agree about this....So
i wanted to know what is ur opinion ?
was it right to do so or not ?
thx
Comments
at the vesper prayer of palm sunday,abouna at our church get a group of girls,made them sit in the first seats,gave them mic and let them pray long evlogimenos with him (which he had taught them recently).
it was the first time for this to happen at our church,so alot of deacons didn`t like it,they thought that by this way girls are leading the prayers which is not allowed at the church.some said it`s not right to do so,others said it`s ok as long as there are no deacons who know this hymn.some others said that some bishops didn`t agree about this....So
i wanted to know what is ur opinion ?
was it right to do so or not ?
am sorry but the deacons who said that first didn't respect the sacrifice in front of them at the time and were very selfish.
am really amazed by this, long evlogimenos, wow.....
anyway abouna didn't do anything wrong. not only because he's abouna but because there is nothing wrong with girls leading. yes the deacons are supposed to lead the people but if the people don't need guidence, who will they lead......actually if u think about it, abouna was leading if i uderstand what you wrote right.
also this is in fact part of the church. all the people are suppos to pray togather in unity as one voice rising up to God. actually in monestaries girls lead tasbeha and am sure in most of the time they would be better to.
also the bishops mostly encourage this. like in the girls retreat, who would be praying, girls, and may be couple of deacons or even priest to serve in the alter for the sacrifice.
firstly i think what abouna done was accpetable. just becuase they had the microphone does not make anyone anything. LEADING IS NOT DEFINED BY LOADNESS (lol if it was, then i always lead in the mass LOL..im reallllly load)
in our church, some of the boys are discriminating against female servants who give lessons (like pre-servant lessons) to boys above the age of 12. the objection the boys are making is that women have no right to teach boys above the age of 12(although the women may be 17 or 77)!!!!!!!!! i think this is a ridiculus view boys are aquiring!!
not to worry, we did ask an abouna and he did not agree with the view the boys had, saying that the only thing women are not allowed to do was give a wa3sa in 3shya or a mass...THAT WAS ALL!
it is the 6th
I honestly don't see what the problem is. Women have just as much right to praise God in church as men, and I don't see why they can't. A mic is an instrument developed to help carry sound, and I know that it can definitely be a source of contention in the church, especially among deacons. I think we would be much better off without them. God knows, that if everyone sings together, they are not needed at all.
And for all of you who said WOwwwwwwwwwww evlogimenos , don't be so amazed my friends and i (12, 15, 16 and 17) know it all by heart ;)
lol, i din't say that because the hymn is hard. but for the fact that they would remeber it and say it....as girls. ;)
i know many girls who learned many hymns that are even harder than what i know, but over time they just forget it becuase they don't says it as we, deacons would normally do.
[quote author=shnoda link=topic=5226.msg70075#msg70075 date=1176985123]
what if abouna wanted to do the same thing in kiahk tasbeha inspite of the presence of all deacons,to encourge the girls ?
actually i think that would be the best time for this to happend. it's basiclly the longest praise of the year where u can have 2 choruses since there is many people in that tasbeha than the normal tasbeha.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=5226.msg70079#msg70079 date=1176988314]
I honestly don't see what the problem is. Women have just as much right to praise God in church as men, and I don't see why they can't. A mic is an instrument developed to help carry sound, and I know that it can definitely be a source of contention in the church, especially among deacons. I think we would be much better off without them. God knows, that if everyone sings together, they are not needed at all.
i agree. i think deacons now hold the mic as like a leading staff or somthing.
Well in our church here in california we have deaconesses, at least 8. They never lead in hymns though, they know all teh hard hymns and sing, but they are never given a microphone. But i think it depends where this happens(In your case) if it is in Alexandria then everyone obviously complained. But from wut you said Abouna is the one that led. So it is ok. And for all of you who said WOwwwwwwwwwww evlogimenos , don't be so amazed my friends and i (12, 15, 16 and 17) know it all by heart ;)
You're talking about the loooong evlogimenos right? there is a normal way like this:http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Major_Feasts_of_the_Lord/Palm_Sunday/Higher_Institute_of_Studies.html (number 4) and a long way which is here: http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Major_Feasts_of_the_Lord/Palm_Sunday/Cantor_Farag_Abdelmessih.html (number 6). I hope you are not confusing the two. For people your age to learn the long way, i salute you! :) Am still impressed there are priests out there that still allow this hymn to be said in our churches(long way). But its im very impressed with those of you who actually know it. :)
You're talking about the loooong evlogimenos right? there is a normal way like this:http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Major_Feasts_of_the_Lord/Palm_Sunday/Higher_Institute_of_Studies.html (number 4) and a long way which is here: http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Major_Feasts_of_the_Lord/Palm_Sunday/Cantor_Farag_Abdelmessih.html (number 6). I hope you are not confusing the two. For people your age to learn the long way, i salute you! :) Am still impressed there are priests out there that still allow this hymn to be said in our churches(long way). But its im very impressed with those of you who actually know it. :)
well yes, i think the problem wouldn't be learning but it would be saying it in the liturgy.
I am really not only surprised but also disappointed by your opinions. I don't think it was right at all what abounda did, and moreover there are deaconnesses in California. Well, it won't surprise me then to see a "priestess" in the near future in spite of the opinion that the only thing that the woman shouldn't do in the church is giving speeches, or sermons.
NO, what I think is that church liturgies are not led by choirs. It is not because the girls know the long hymn that they should stand in the deacons' area (that's what I understood), or hold a microphone to be heard out loud in the church. My belief is that is completely wrong. I am sorry; I am also surprised that I was the first to say such a comment. I am also sorry to say it is very wrong to ordain deaconness in California. If that was right, why would it only happen in the 21st century? Modernising again? Or what?
Whatever that priest's motive was, whether to boast about teaching the hymn to girls, or merely to give them encouragement in front the congregation, I think it was very wrong in the first place.
Yes, girls and women (as nuns) sing midnight chants, and serve as deaconnesses (although it is a misnomer here) in liturgies, but let's not forget that's an all female situation. In the presence of men, I don't think that is right. I am sorry, I am not being sexist, but I am just trying to follow our church's dogma, although I don't really think I have a strong argument myself.
God bless you all and please mention me in your prayers
Dear shnoda, and all,
I am really not only surprised but also disappointed by your opinions. I don't think it was right at all what abounda did, and moreover there are deaconnesses in California. Well, it won't surprise me then to see a "priestess" in the near future in spite of the opinion that the only thing that the woman shouldn't do in the church is giving speeches, or sermons. NO, what I think is that church liturgies are not led by choirs. It is not because the girls know the long hymn that they should stand in the deacons' area (that's what I understood), or hold a microphone to be heard out loud in the church. My belief is that is completely wrong. I am sorry; I am also surprised that I was the first to say such a comment. I am also sorry to say it is very wrong to ordain deaconness in California. If that was right, why would it only happen in the 21st century? Modernising again? Or what?
First, deaconnesses were always there from the begning of the first one in the book of Acts that St. Paul ordained. it's not a 21st century thing either. the massege is only sent that way becuase you really wouldn't know much about deaconess around us because mostly they are hidden in the churchs that need them.
Whatever that priest's motive was, whether to boast about teaching the hymn to girls, or merely to give them encouragement in front the congregation, I think it was very wrong in the first place.
I think you have to go talk to that priest than since you're condemning a man of God.
Yes, girls and women (as nuns) sing midnight chants, and serve as deaconnesses (although it is a misnomer here) in liturgies, but let's not forget that's an all female situation. In the presence of men, I don't think that is right.
Ophadece, by saying this, you're misunderstadning the word 'Praise'. God didn't give the praise of the Cherubim (as says in St.Gregory's Liturgy), only to deacons but to everyone. yes they can't become deacons but they can still praise God as being part of the congregation fo the church.
BTW, the deacons' rank of chanter only came on after there wasn't much people who would know the congregation responses. the first and official rank of deacons is the reader who serves in the alter and responds the responses that are set for him.
wait, why go far, in a liturgy book, the normal hymns that deacons say outside the altar, (not responses) do you see the word deacons or the word congregation before the hymn. no, you see congregation becuase it's the congregation's turn to praise God in that specfic service.
Also you're putting men highelly over women in church. in our coptic church, the church have raws that are evenly set there. they are next to each other, fully equal. you don't see women setting behind men, do you............
There is set services for men and for women in our church that are somtimes the same. and praise can be one of them.
that will never change.
I am sorry, I am not being sexist, but I am just trying to follow our church's dogma, although I don't really think I have a strong argument myself.
it's not right to blame the church dogma's to back up an opinion. it says nothing in our rites or dogmas about women not saying hymns.
again, they are congregation responses or hymns, not deacon responses
Dear shnoda, and all,
I am really not only surprised but also disappointed by your opinions. I don't think it was right at all what abounda did, and moreover there are deaconnesses in California. Well, it won't surprise me then to see a "priestess" in the near future in spite of the opinion that the only thing that the woman shouldn't do in the church is giving speeches, or sermons.
NO, what I think is that church liturgies are not led by choirs. It is not because the girls know the long hymn that they should stand in the deacons' area (that's what I understood), or hold a microphone to be heard out loud in the church. My belief is that is completely wrong. I am sorry; I am also surprised that I was the first to say such a comment. I am also sorry to say it is very wrong to ordain deaconness in California. If that was right, why would it only happen in the 21st century? Modernising again? Or what?
Whatever that priest's motive was, whether to boast about teaching the hymn to girls, or merely to give them encouragement in front the congregation, I think it was very wrong in the first place.
Yes, girls and women (as nuns) sing midnight chants, and serve as deaconnesses (although it is a misnomer here) in liturgies, but let's not forget that's an all female situation. In the presence of men, I don't think that is right. I am sorry, I am not being sexist, but I am just trying to follow our church's dogma, although I don't really think I have a strong argument myself.
God bless you all and please mention me in your prayers
wellactually its not a modern thing at all, in our church history there were ALOT of deaconesses, however it stoped due to the arab conquestand many harmful intervenes. HOWEVER becuase of the coptic orthodox churches recent freedom to traveel abroad into countries like australia usa and canada, the old tradition of deaconesses has once again started again.
ophenadence, (howeever u spell ur name) i see your point and agree with you till an extent.
wellactually its not a modern thing at all, in our church history there were ALOT of deaconesses, however it stoped due to the arab conquestand many harmful intervenes. HOWEVER becuase of the coptic orthodox churches recent freedom to traveel abroad into countries like australia usa and canada, the old tradition of deaconesses has once again started again.
ophenadence, (howeever u spell ur name) i see your point and agree with you till an extent.
am sorry but both of you are just wrong. am sorry to say that but it's true.
wrong about the deconess thing? or our view
view, since ther is nothing to back it up in our rites as ophadece claims there is
I think minagir first misunderstood my point, and built upon it a comment which I didn't mean. Only one point, which is I never said that women, or girls cannot sing in the church, or have to be quiet all the way through. No, I didn't mean that at all. I entirely agree with the fact that women should always sing praises and join men in praise. Our faith is not based on man being superior to a woman, and the church doesn't teach me that either. Yes, I know exactly it says "congregation", which means that both women and men should sing.
My point was that I don't really believe that women or girls should have taken the role of the deacons, just because they knew a new hymn. And, I won't judge the priest or anyone else, because it is not my duty to do so but I am just voicing my opinion. To be honest, it is the first time for me to hear that there were deaconesses since the start of the church. If that is so, then that is absolutely fine; but of course, not just out of the blue. Has to be organised. So no one can ask a group of girls to come up to the altar and serve, and sing hymns just because they know a hymn better than the male deacons, and that is it. I disagree with that. However, let me ask you some questions to learn from you how this originated.
1. if there were deaconesses in the church, where did they use to stand and sing? opposite to male deacons?
2. how did they partake in the Communion? Certainly not inside the altar, or what?
One last thing Cephas. Yes, I said I don't have a strong argument myself, and the dogma that I learnt from the church is just through attending the church. I never saw or heard of anything like this before, and our Coptic Orthodox Church is an educational church, so if there was something like that I would have seen it. But again, it could only be just some ignorance on my part. That is why I am asking you to clarify your opinions.
After all I don't think I am comfortable with the idea of women singing like a choir, and the rest of the congregation (not particularly male deacons) are sitting and watching. I won't go in that other topic as well, because it is something that has invaded our church, and we are becoming like cinemas, or theatres. Sorry, but just had to mention that point.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
Dear minagir, and Cephas, and all,
I think minagir first misunderstood my point, and built upon it a comment which I didn't mean. Only one point, which is I never said that women, or girls cannot sing in the church, or have to be quiet all the way through. No, I didn't mean that at all. I entirely agree with the fact that women should always sing praises and join men in praise. Our faith is not based on man being superior to a woman, and the church doesn't teach me that either. Yes, I know exactly it says "congregation", which means that both women and men should sing.
i only understood what you have written and replyed to that.
My point was that I don't really believe that women or girls should have taken the role of the deacons, just because they knew a new hymn. And, I won't judge the priest or anyone else, because it is not my duty to do so but I am just voicing my opinion. To be honest, it is the first time for me to hear that there were deaconesses since the start of the church. If that is so, then that is absolutely fine; but of course, not just out of the blue. Has to be organised. So no one can ask a group of girls to come up to the altar and serve, and sing hymns just because they know a hymn better than the male deacons, and that is it. I disagree with that. However, let me ask you some questions to learn from you how this originated.
why do you guys always prodect the future. if somthing happends once doesn't mean that it well develop in anything else. like i said before, every person in our church has her/his own duties. That will not change. it been the same for 100s of years and it will stay that way.
1. if there were deaconesses in the church, where did they use to stand and sing? opposite to male deacons?
Deaconesses (which you said you don't much about), don't particabate in liturgical services dispite what was said before. all their duties are outside the liturgical services. may be yes in church but not as the deacons'. so during liturgy, they're just there with the women.
i guess this answers question 2 to.
2. how did they partake in the Communion? Certainly not inside the altar, or what?
Yes, I said I don't have a strong argument myself, and the dogma that I learnt from the church is just through attending the church. I never saw or heard of anything like this before, and our Coptic Orthodox Church is an educational church, so if there was something like that I would have seen it. But again, it could only be just some ignorance on my part. That is why I am asking you to clarify your opinions.
well there is many actions that are not shown in church as they're supposed to. so that's why you actually have to go and study the rites to understand them.
Thanks for answering my questions. In fact, that goes with my understanding about deaconesses, and here it makes what happened in shnoda's church not acceptable. I might agree with you to a great extend that I shouldn't generalise or predict what would happen, but we shouldn't ignore that fact that the evil one can use any such occasion to make the wrong spread, and I guess that is what happened in other denominations (without being adversative, as I don't really have much to do with that), and that is why I am just cautious that might happen in your church. Very nice to keep on your nice attitude about our church that lived through the ages, two whole centuries, and let's pray she stay strong against all the waves coming her way.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
Dear minagir,
Thanks for answering my questions. In fact, that goes with my understanding about deaconesses, and here it makes what happened in shnoda's church not acceptable. I might agree with you to a great extend that I shouldn't generalise or predict what would happen, but we shouldn't ignore that fact that the evil one can use any such occasion to make the wrong spread, and I guess that is what happened in other denominations (without being adversative, as I don't really have much to do with that), and that is why I am just cautious that might happen in your church. Very nice to keep on your nice attitude about our church that lived through the ages, two whole centuries, and let's pray she stay strong against all the waves coming her way.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
as i said in many posts before, don't worry about our church. She will always stand victorious. just worry about your salvation in the church.
other denominations were a result of those who are against the church
thx again for ur time and effort.
if anyone wants to add anything,plz feel free to do so.i would like to read more points of view.
GB
Tony
Guys, lets not forget. Muallim Mikhail learned one of our most beloved hymns "Apetjeek evol," from a lame woman. They used to have women cantors. You can find more info here: http://copticheritage.org/PagEd+index-page_id-816.phtml
i don't think that'd the full story. the fll story is that the hymn was known by a cantor. Muallem Mikhael and Raghep Moftah heard about this lahn. so they went to Menia where the cantor used to live. when they went there the cantor was dead...but they learned that his daughter knew this hymn. so they found the girl in the market place selling radish. when they got to her, they asked her about the hymn and she said yes i know that hymn, my father (the cantor) taught it to me. so than she said the hymn to Muallem Mikhael, and being as good as he is, he learned it from the first time hearing it. that's why the hymn is somtimes refread to 'lahn el-fegl', being learned from a women who sold fegl, radish.
And by the way, i don't think what abouna did was right because in all of the professional and respected books, they always state: "Then the Deacons and I underline the "Deacons" because I am 100% sure that Deacons does not include girls, it only includes boys or the male gender for this case.
ophadece,
My apologies, I didn't mean to come off sounding harsh or condescending. I was sincerely wondering if you happened to know of any Church dogma that stated women could not sing the hymns either with (or without) the deacons.
while we are on the subject, does anyone have a link to long eflogemenous.
And by the way, i don't think what abouna did was right because in all of the professional and respected books, they always state: "Then the Deacons and I underline the "Deacons" because I am 100% sure that Deacons does not include girls, it only includes boys or the male gender for this case.
i would love to know which book is that. maybe you can think that because it's only included in the khedmit shamas. but i have in front of me, the "Deacons' Service Book" of 'The Committee of the Revival Churches' (Gam-'eiet Nahdet Al-Kana-es), page 254; it says, "The people chant Kerie Leison three times long and than the hymn of palm sunday as so, ....."
anything that is said in a group can be counted as part of the congregation responses.